Please ignore cross out below
Both Dr Ehrman and the typical evangelical believe[s] that Jesus/God taught that
a) a supernatural being would appear on an ordinary natural metrological cloud. Dr Ehrman thinks it was going to be a distinct Son of Man figure 2000 years ago and evangelicals think it is to be Jesus himself in the near future, but the concept seems essentially the same
b) after this above being appears sinful man will somehow instantaneously transform into sinless people who no longer call their brother ‘fool’ nor ‘look at a woman with lust in their hearts’.
c) after this being appears pathological and biological scheme of things laws will be altered so their will be no diseases
d) laws of biology will also be changed so humans at least living on earth will no longer age (not sure about non human earthly creatures)
e) natural phenomenon like earthquakes, natural cycles of droughts (at least in human populated regions) will cease
f) etc
Biblical views of all the above, in my view, are extremely lacking
so what leads both Dr Ehrman and evangelicals to so many similar [these] conclusions?
It’d be nice if tompicard gave quotes of Ehrman so that we can be clear on what Ehrman has claimed (rather than taking tompicard’s word for it).
Also, when tompicard says that the Bible is “quite lacking,” does he mean that there is nothing in the Bible to support these claims made by Ehrman (according to tompicard)?
sublimevotum said
It’d be nice if tompicard gave quotes of Ehrman so that we can be clear on what Ehrman has claimed (rather than taking tompicard’s word for it).
regarding c) d) and e) see
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[Jesus taught] In the Kingdom of God there will be no natural disasters; Jesus controls nature even now. In the Kingdom there will be no more demons; Jesus casts out demons now. In the Kingdom there will be no more disease or bodily ailments or physical impairments; Jesus heals the sick now. In the Kingdom there will be no more death; Jesus raises the dead now.
regarding a) see,
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. . .God was to send a kind of cosmic judge of the earth, sometimes also called the messiah or the “Son of Man” to bring about a cataclysmic overthrow . . .it would not be long before God would intervene, sending a savior — possibly on the clouds of heaven in judgment on the earth — bringing with him the good kingdom
In this post Dr Ehrman present typical motifs and notes cosmic judge possibly coming on clouds. His point being Jesus shared these concepts. In his book Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium he also presents angelic Son of Man coming on a cloud as a likely part of Jesus views.
regarding b) see ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Jesus believed that those who followed his teachings were already experiencing a foretaste of what life would be like in the coming Kingdom of God. In the kingdom there will be no hatred, and Jesus’ followers lived lives of love now; in the kingdom there would be no war, and Jesus’ followers were peace-makers now; in the kingdom there would be no poverty, and Jesus’ followers gave their goods to those who were poor now;
Dr Ehrman does not explicitly say that Jesus saw hatred and war end instantaneously in the Kingdom yet he does seem to imply some kind of a discontinuity between the his present teachings about mortality and the fulfilled (?) morality in the Kingdom, tho it is somewhat unclear (ie whether it occurs instantaneously, or whether there is a period of time in Gods Kingdom when people still hate each other).
Also, when tompicard says that the Bible is “quite lacking,” does he mean that there is nothing in the Bible to support these claims made by Ehrman (according to tompicard)?
no, just that biblical evidence for the contrary is greater
Robert said
tompicard also said
e) natural phenomenon like earthquakes, natural cycles of droughts (at least in human populated regions) will ceaseThese views are indeed found in New Testament texts and other apocalyptic texts of the 2nd-Temple era. How much of this literature have you read?
I have read book of Zechariah which is 2nd Temple era and New American Bible commentary (and wikipedia) note apocalyptic themes
It says that there will still be pestilence and droughts (at least in Egypt (at least if Egyptians don’t travel to Jerusalem for the Festival of Booths
)) after the coming of the New Jerusalem . In other words nothing in this apocalyptic view implies natural disaster are inconsistent with Kingdom of God.
and Q521 I find more likely hyperbole rather than an implication that there will be no more disasters.
But I prefer to look to words at least ascribed to Jesus such as Lk 13 Tower of Siloam, I think Jesus is implying natural disaster may occur even to non-sinners, so maybe disasters may very well occur in Kingdom of God. Anyway I dont know any text ascribed to Jesus that implies the opposite.
I wouldn’t ascribe to anyone such silly views as above, much less Jesus, unless I were presented a lot more compelling evidence than I have seen either you or Dr Ehrman present
if i begin religious order and claim that within several months an angelic being will appear on a cloud and will execute judgement on all people who do not believe in me, but everyone who does believes in me will live immortally on earth and and never suffer any disease, and additionally there will be no more earthquakes.
Wouldn’t you call me rather silly and ridiculous?
tompicard said
if i begin religious order and claim that within several months an angelic being will appear on a cloud and will execute judgement on all people who do not believe in me, but everyone who does believes in me will live immortally on earth and and never suffer any disease, and additionally there will be no more earthquakes.
Wouldn’t you call me rather silly and ridiculous?
If you actually believe it yes. But Dr Ehrman is discussing the beliefs of ancient peoples, not claiming to believe this stuff himself. You seem not to grasp this distinction. But my main point would be you can call Dr Ehrman anything you want and disagree with him of course, but calling him “silly” or “ridiculous” makes you look like just another crank who picks his obsessions out of his butt.
I don’t think he’s calling Professor Ehrman silly and ridiculous; he’s disagreeing with the standard description of apocalyptic ideas being attributed to Jesus.
Ok then I regret my misunderstanding. I do fall into the apocalyptic Jesus camp. Not a very controversial stance. This view has so much explanatory power that it just seems unlikely it can be disconfirmed. And I can’t find any of the plausible alternatives that don’t slip into anachronism at some point. But of course we’re light years away from claiming we have all the answers. We’re lucky to have what sources we do but we’re also at their mercy.
So…let me try this again.
tompicard said
if i begin religious order and claim that within several months an angelic being will appear on a cloud and will execute judgement on all people who do not believe in me, but everyone who does believes in me will live immortally on earth and and never suffer any disease, and additionally there will be no more earthquakes.
Wouldn’t you call me rather silly and ridiculous?
Yes, in 2018. But Jesus swam in a completely different conceptual sea than we moderns. If someone comes along today and timestamps doomsday we laugh. But in Jesus’ world nobody laughed. By today’s standards Jesus would be considered a religious fanatic. But judging ancient people by our values is kind of a waste of time.
We don’t all laugh. There were quite a few people who were taken in by Harold Camping’s prophecies of the End of Days. There were also the Mayan calendar prophecy, the Blood Moon prophecy, etc. And remember, we live in a time when we know a lot more about how the world really works than people in the Ancient World. Our world is a materialist-individualist ones, theirs was a spiritualist-communalist one. It’s very difficult to think like they did – to ignore our knowledge of physics, biology, chemistry, sociology…
I accept that whether you or I find a world absent disease to be silly, does not, in and of itself, argue against Dr Ehrman’s contention
[Jesus taught] In the Kingdom there will be no more disease or bodily ailments or physical impairments;
but, of course, neither is it an argument for it.
Better to evaluate this position by looking at things Jesus spoke, for instance like Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
Still it seems to me prudent, absent very strong evidence, to ascribe to everyone (even persons living 2000 years ago in Judea) sensible opinions to extraordinary.
AstaKask said
We don’t all laugh. There were quite a few people who were taken in by Harold Camping’s prophecies of the End of Days. There were also the Mayan calendar prophecy, the Blood Moon prophecy, etc. And remember, we live in a time when we know a lot more about how the world really works than people in the Ancient World. Our world is a materialist-individualist ones, theirs was a spiritualist-communalist one. It’s very difficult to think like they did – to ignore our knowledge of physics, biology, chemistry, sociology…
So the physics of walking on water, the biology of a virgin birth, the chemistry of water into wine, and the sociology of the good Samaritan cannot be found in the Bible? Those who are vulnerable to Apocalypses, Mayan calendars, and Blood Moons are just as vulnerable to Piltdown Man frauds; not to mention the fraud of communism. It seems the one thing that hasn’t changed in 2000 years since Jesus’s time is the human being.
I dont agree that just because Jesus lived so long ago that
Stephen said
But in Jesus’ world nobody laughed [at his him or his teachings, if he said silly stuff].
see Matt 9:24
How different is saying that “a dead girl was really asleep” than “some of us will live immortally and never get sick” ?
I dont claim this to be historical historical. Only that to Matthew ideas regarding death and/or immortality probably were not incredibly different than ours. (ie the same things we moderns consider silly may also have been at Jesus time)
additionally may or may not be pertinent
suppose in year 4018 scholars look at our time and say
Stephen said
. . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .Wouldn’t you call me rather silly and ridiculous?
Yes, in 4018. But Bart Ehrman swam in a completely different conceptual sea than we [4018] moderns. If someone comes along in [in 4018 and said such and such] we laugh. But [at that time] world nobody laughed. . . .. But judging ancient [2018] people by our [4018] values is kind of a waste of time.
for example we have record from 2000 years ago where
AstaKask said
. . . . quite a few people who were taken in by Harold Camping’s prophecies of the End of Days. There were also the Mayan calendar prophecy, the Blood Moon prophecy, etc. And remember, we live in a time when we know a lot more about how the world really works than people in the Ancient [2018]World. Our world is a …
Matt2239 said
So the physics of walking on water, the biology of a virgin birth, the chemistry of water into wine, and the sociology of the good Samaritan cannot be found in the Bible? Those who are vulnerable to Apocalypses, Mayan calendars, and Blood Moons are just as vulnerable to Piltdown Man frauds; not to mention the fraud of communism. It seems the one thing that hasn’t changed in 2000 years since Jesus’s time is the human being.
The first two things were considered possible but improbable. Today, most people would view them as impossible, and the burden of proof would be much higher. Remember, this was a time when epilepsy was treated by drinking fresh human blood, boar dung was considered a good treatment for bruises and a man’s urine in which a lizard had been drowned was a known aphrodisiac. There were shapeshifters in the forests and witches lurking in the woods.
As for the good Samaritan, this is what happens when that story meets the 20th century:
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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