A general response to a few topics:
There are three levels of knowledge or understanding of spiritual texts: stone, water, and wine.
Stone, is the literal understanding. i.e. there was a Garden of Eden, the snake talked, etc.
Water, is the esoteric understanding: i.e. The Garden of Eden represents our inner Kingdom of Heaven, the snake is our lower self that is able to con the finest part of ourselves, the inner chamber of our hearts (our Eve, our Mary, our Isis, our Danae, et al. All of whom had so called virgin births.)
Wine, is the esoteric understanding of the texts that is fused with spiritual understanding.
Thus, the miracle at Cana may be understood that Jesus took the literal understanding of the Scriptures, transformed it into esoteric truth, and then taught his inner circle, the disciples, how to use this wisdom to attain spiritual understanding, and a higher state of spirituality…awakening from their sleep.
Regarding the Virgin Birth:
The inner chamber of the heart, known in the OT as the Holy of Holies, is where the Moses or Jesus in us is able to commune with our inner God.
(God has been known, at different times in history and in various texts, The Promised Land, the Holy Grail, the God Particle, the Friend, Third Eye, the Shekinah, the Higher Self, Christ, Yahweh, et al.)
The Moses or Jesus within us, being inspired by the inner chamber of the heart, is capable of taking us to the threshold of the inner God, but is not able to enter the Kingdom, since it still part of our lower self. Hence, Moses could not enter the Promised Land, and Jesus needed to die before attaining the Kingdom.
The Nature of Man:
Man is composed of Heaven (our inner God) and Earth (the lower self.)
The Gospel of Thomas is, perhaps, the most insightful text that teaches this understanding.
To paraphrase the Thomas Gospel: “Blessed is the Man who consumes the lion (the lower self) but woe to man to whom the lion consumes.”
Or
“Jesus said: Become passers-by”
In other words, we are to go through life as if it is a play, without becoming attached to anything, be it joy or sorrow. Please know that it is only the divine within us that is capable of controlling the lower self from these attachments.
For those more comfortable with the NT. “To quote Matthew: Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,(spiritual enlightenment) and few there be that find it.”
Epilogue:
Like Bart, I went from a strictly orthodox education and way of life to atheism. However, fortune smiled one day and introduced a different knowledge.
Like Mary in the Thomas Gospel, we must all transform from the female within us (the non-divine) to the Male within us, (the Divine.)
Lastly, there is no one coming to make these life-long efforts of transforming the human within us into the divine. This must be accomplished by our own efforts.
…if any man has ears to hear, let him hear.
AstaKask said
this was a time when epilepsy was treated by drinking fresh human blood, boar dung was considered a good treatment for bruises and a man’s urine in which a lizard had been drowned was a known aphrodisiac.
The original authors of the gospels addressed the evidence by calling these things miracles. By definition, miracles cannot be explained. Miracles are not scientific because they cannot be replicated, in part because the one who performed them is no longer alive.
Which miracle of the Bible, if it were done today, would cause you to change your entire life and become a follower of a traveling preacher who claimed to be God’s son?
That’s what I thought.
Even the repetition of a miracle would not persuade you. So what difference does it make whether a miracle happened?
Matt2239 said
AstaKask said
this was a time when epilepsy was treated by drinking fresh human blood, boar dung was considered a good treatment for bruises and a man’s urine in which a lizard had been drowned was a known aphrodisiac.The original authors of the gospels addressed the evidence by calling these things miracles. By definition, miracles cannot be explained. Miracles are not scientific because they cannot be replicated, in part because the one who performed them is no longer alive.
Which miracle of the Bible, if it were done today, would cause you to change your entire life and become a follower of a traveling preacher who claimed to be God’s son?
That’s what I thought.
Even the repetition of a miracle would not persuade you. So what difference does it make whether a miracle happened?
Changing water into wine under controlled circumstances would certainly convince me that something was going on. Maybe not enough to convert on the spot, but it would at least be something. And yet John tells us that Jesus said “Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:12-13)
Yet the miracles we see today tend to be “I prayed and then I found my car keys.” Doesn’t that bother you?
Which miracle of the Bible, if it were done today, would cause you to change your entire life and become a follower of a traveling preacher who claimed to be God’s son?
The honest reply is, I don’t know. But presumably God does know and all I can say is that He hasn’t done it so far. I wonder why that is?
AstaKask said
Yet the miracles we see today tend to be “I prayed and then I found my car keys.” Doesn’t that bother you?
Bother me? Nah. Some people pray for even stranger things.
My favorite was a guy whose town was in the direct path of a hurricane. He prayed the hurricane would miss his town, which was effectively like praying that the hurricane would hit some other guy’s trailer park.
Most people are confounded by what a miracle is. A miracle by its very definition cannot be explained. So to ask for an explanation is not something that’s relevant. As for evidence of miracles, you can see that there are 6 billion bibles in print all saying miracles happened and there are 2 billion followers of Jesus who today believe Jesus performed miracles. There is also the very fact that we know of a person named Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago, which is so improbable that if you said he walked on water it would be believable.
I don’t talk about my own beliefs, or even if I have any beliefs. That’s difficult to do sometimes, but it pays off from an analytical standpoint.
We also know of a person named Octavian who walked around 2000 years ago, that doesn’t mean that he was the son of a virgin or told the toads in his garden to be quiet so they didn’t disturb his studies. How is it a miracle that there are 6 billion bibles in print or two billion followers of Jesus? People can believe very strange things, especially if they’ve been raised in the faith.
Anyway, this is off topic.
The miracle stories in the bible are different than what is meant by ridiculous in the title of this thread
people unexpectedly recovering from diseases even quite suddenly for no understandable reason was infrequent but of course happened 2000 years ago and also happens today. 2000 years ago it was attributed to the work of God. that is ok an explanation, as far as I am concerned. even people thought to be dead and reviving is not inconceivable.
the ridiculous is a whole other phenomena
i.e people universally becoming immortal.
That is pretty unbelievable . . . , I guess even 2000 years ago, and ascribing such ideas to anyone in the past should only be done with good evidence
Which . . .to become a follower of a traveling preacher . . .?
Stephen said The honest reply is, I don’t know. But presumably God does know and . . . I wonder why that is?
Maybe your presumption is incorrect, and did that traveling preacher ever imply God was that type of a God?
AstaKask said
I mean, a lot of people today believe that the elect will universally become immortal.
right, evangelicals usually, yet very few of them really believe that that will occur prior to their own physical demise. (unlike a speculated contention of Jesus’ view)
But we usually dont say such and such a person believes they will be immortal on earth unless we hear them explicitly say that, and even if we hear them say they will be physically immortal, we probably would further question them repeatedly to make sure they really mean physically immortal like we think they mean, rather than maybe immortal in a different manner (like in a spiritual dimension or in some other sense).
Additionally we probably should NOT say just because we know John Smith is a Christian and a some or a bunch of other Christians believe they will be physically immortal therefore that is the belief held by John Smith (or similarly since we think we know that a lot of 1st century apocalypticist believed there would be physically immortal in the World to Come, that’s what Jesus believed).
just trying to bring this thread back to original topic regarding Dr Ehrman’s contentions of Jesus’ beliefs
Which . . .to become a follower of a traveling preacher . . .?
Stephen said The honest reply is, I don’t know. But presumably God does know and . . . I wonder why that is?
Maybe your presumption is incorrect, and did that traveling preacher ever imply God was that type of a God?
Well I have been assured by Christians that the Almighty sees into the deep recesses of my heart and harbors both wishes and desires for me. Of course with all that talk what we actually see are God’s representatives, grimly determined to be of assistance in fashioning my lifestyle. It seems terribly improbable to me but that’s what I’ve been told.
But look what piques my curiosity is your use of ellipses in the quote. It must have taken longer to do it the way you did than just to cut and paste the entire thing. It must have seemed clever and doubtless fraught with meaning but I don’t get it.
AstaKask said
We also know of a person named Octavian who walked around 2000 years ago, that doesn’t mean that he was the son of a virgin or told the toads in his garden to be quiet so they didn’t disturb his studies. How is it a miracle that there are 6 billion bibles in print or two billion followers of Jesus? People can believe very strange things, especially if they’ve been raised in the faith.
Anyway, this is off topic.
I’m not aware of anyone named Octavian. I do know there’s a hotel nearby that has Gideon Bibles in each of the rooms. Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples are the most unlikely people in all of human history to be remembered 2000 years after they walked the earth (and sea, if you’re a Christian).
AstaKask said
As for the good Samaritan, this is what happens when that story meets the 20th century:
I can’t determine whether Samaritan is a regional definition, like Southerner, or a political designation like Republican, or a religious designation like Evangelical Christian.
I prefer this clip through which to view ancient people, although the people shown are from a time period more than a thousand years after Jesus’s crucifixion. Peasant clothes and menial occupations don’t necessarily mean unsophisticated thought.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Stephen,
Which . . .to become a follower of a traveling preacher . . .?
Stephen said The honest reply is, I don’t know. But presumably God does know and . . . I wonder why that is?
Maybe your presumption is incorrect, and did that traveling preacher ever imply God was that type of a God?
But look what piques my curiosity is your use of ellipses in the quote. It must have taken longer to do it the way you did than just to cut and paste the entire thing. It must have seemed clever and doubtless fraught with meaning but I don’t get it.
uhh, sorry to disappoint i don’t think anything particularly clever was intended
but for what its worth
in the second line I suppose I removed your words implying “God not showing you something you think He either should have or could have shown you”, i thought the suggestion for you to reconsider some presumptions was clear even tho some words were replaced by . . .’s
I suppose I don’t think God should need or feel the compulsion to perform miracles for people to act right
Matt2239 said
I’m not aware of anyone named Octavian. I do know there’s a hotel nearby that has Gideon Bibles in each of the rooms. Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples are the most unlikely people in all of human history to be remembered 2000 years after they walked the earth (and sea, if you’re a Christian).
Caius Octavius, better known as Caesar Augustus.
AstaKask said
Caius Octavius, better known as Caesar Augustus.
Exactly. What did he say that was important? Turn the other cheek, render unto Caesar, go the extra mile, or do unto others? Caesar Augustus was emperor of the might empire of Rome, and yet it is a traveling street preacher whose life and ideas are accessible to anyone in a motel room with a Gideon Bible.
Incidentally, the Gideon Bible in your motel room is there to protect the motel owner. If someone kills himself in a motel room and there is a Gideon Bible in the nightstand, then everyone must agree that the motel owner did all he could to prevent it! 
I suppose I don’t think God should need or feel the compulsion to perform miracles for people to act right
Ok but he either wants me to be saved or he doesn’t. If I knew someone had a disease and I possessed the cure I would be much less coy about it. I can only interpret silence as consent. Or absence of course.
Matt2239 said
Exactly. What did he say that was important? Turn the other cheek, render unto Caesar, go the extra mile, or do unto others? Caesar Augustus was emperor of the might empire of Rome, and yet it is a traveling street preacher whose life and ideas are accessible to anyone in a motel room with a Gideon Bible.
Incidentally, the Gideon Bible in your motel room is there to protect the motel owner. If someone kills himself in a motel room and there is a Gideon Bible in the nightstand, then everyone must agree that the motel owner did all he could to prevent it!
How many traveling street preachers were there? This is the Sharp-Shooter Fallacy.
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