John 7:6-10 says, “Jesus said to them, ‘My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it that its works are evil. Go to the festival yourselves. I am not going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come.’ After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.”
I asked my wife if she would have a problem with me telling her I wasn’t going to a festival in town, but then went secretly. She said she’d consider it wrong because I specifically would’ve said I wasn’t going and then would’ve done it secretly.
So is Jesus lying to his brothers?
What is the meaning and significance of Jesus time not yet coming but his brothers time always being here to this apparent lie?
And what would be the purpose of the author telling this story in this way? Was there some reason the later community would have wanted this story in this gospel?
In John 7:4-5 Jesus’s brothers ask him to go to Judea and manifest himself, or reveal himself as the Messiah. He doesn’t go presently with the brothers revealing his true nature, because his time has not yet come. However he does go in secret later.
“I am not going up to this feast” is intended to mean “this won’t be the feast where I reveal my true identity to the world”.
I don’t think John wants to portray Jesus as having deceived his brothers.
John says “when his brothers went up to to feast, he went also, not manifestly but in secret”.
“manifestly” is what his brothers asked him to do and not to act in “secret“. It’s this he said he wouldn’t do yet because his time had not yet come.
The line “you go up to feast, I am not going up” is suggestive of him staying away completely, but that’s not the author’s intention. He just means Jesus to say he is not going up in triumphal procession.
Robert said
The problem with that interpretation, Bren, is that when Jesus does go to the feast, he very much teaches publicly about who he is and performs a controversial healing. You can believe that John and Jesus and his brothers are actually only thinking about a triumphal procession, but that is not what the text says.
Its the festival of tabernacles and its only in the half way through the feast that he goes to the temple courts to preach. This can be understood as not celebrating/attending the feast. The brothers had ask him to go to Judea so his followers there would see things he is doing. But Jesus performs no miracles at the feast. The people there still question if he is the Messiah or not. By chapter 10 they still ask “how long will you keep us in suspense, tell us plainly if you are the messiah”.
The question is whether the brothers would have felt deceived if they saw Jesus preaching in the temple courts? Was it this that he had told them he wouldn’t do? Is arriving half way through the feast to preach in the courts the same as not going up to the feast?
“The question is whether the brothers would have felt deceived if they saw Jesus preaching in the temple courts?”
yes
I am not going to this festival
But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.
“hey man, you said you weren’t going to the festival, but we found you here”
Robert said
All of which sounds like special pleading of apologists who want to avoid a hyper-moralistic interpretation that Jesus certainly would not have deceived his brothers (who did not believe in him and may even have been setting a trap for him). Would we have any trouble admitting (or even praising) this of Odysseus or Hercules (or Abraham or Jacob) or any other clever hero in ancient literature?
Its not a question of Jesus deceiving the brothers its a question of the author John having Jesus deceive the brothers. Odysseus or Hercules might have earthly enemies they need to outwit to triumph over. This isn’t the case with John’s Jesus, the word of god coming to earth as a sacrifice.
There’s no reason for Jesus to deceive the brothers here. They’ve asked him to reveal himself to the world. Which he tells them he wont do yet, and doesn’t.
If he has no reason to deceive the brothers we shouldn’t interpret the passage as deception.
Iskander Robertson said
“The question is whether the brothers would have felt deceived if they saw Jesus preaching in the temple courts?”yes
I am not going to this festival
But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.
“hey man, you said you weren’t going to the festival, but we found you here”
we just need to interpret “you go up to the festival I am not going up” as “not going up to celebrate the festival”. The world hates him because he testifies against it – so he doesn’t participate in the public festival. He goes up half way through to preach against the world in the temple courts. On the greatest day of the festival he doesn’t partake in the festivities but exclaims “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.” (He’s in Jerusalem but he’s not “at” the festival).
“you go up to the festival I am not going up” as “not going up to celebrate the festival”. The world hates him because he testifies against it – so he doesn’t participate in the public festival.
I am not going to this festival
he didn’t say ” i am not going to celebrate, but i am going nonetheless “
“He goes up half way through to preach against the world in the temple courts.”
thats publicly
“On the greatest day of the festival he doesn’t partake in the festivities but exclaims “
thats publicly, not secretly
I am not going to this festival
But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.
if he didnt go to the festival, then where did he go publicly?
if he went to the festival and was seen by his brethren, how wasn’t he deceiving?
Judea, because ** you do not have permission to see this link **my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After saying this, he remained in Galilee.
10 But after ** you do not have permission to see this link **for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14 About the middle of the feast Jesus went up ** you do not have permission to see this link **into the temple and began teaching. 1
where did he go privately?
Robert said
John gives us his reason for why Jesus might want to deceive his brothers. Their suggestion was not made in good faith because they did not even believe in Jesus.
But the character has no motivation to deceive the brothers. They’re not in league with the leaders looking to trap Jesus. He has motivation to refuse their request to openly go to the feast (because they don’t really believe in him), but no motivation to lie about going in secret.
If the character has no motivation to lie we shouldn’t understand the author as intending him to.
Iskander Robertson said
he didn’t say ” i am not going to celebrate, but i am going nonetheless “
He said “you go up to the feast I am not going up”. This can be understood as “you go up to celebrate the feast, I am not going up”. Especially as the world hates Jesus but not the brothers.
thats publicly
thats publicly, not secretly
if he didnt go to the festival, then where did he go publicly?
if he went to the festival and was seen by his brethren, how wasn’t he deceiving?
The meaning is supposed to “openly” or “revealing his true self” “doing miracles to convince everyone”. He doesn’t go up as the Christ but only as a preacher not revealing who he truly is.
Going half way through the feast to preach in the temple courts needn’t be understood as attending the feast.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert