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Gospel of Mark Authorship - Mike Winger
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Robert
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January 24, 2022 - 3:31 pm
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JAS

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January 24, 2022 - 3:46 pm

I think Goodacre’s argument may be summarized as “once you agree with what I propose, you will find that you agree with me.” Or, perhaps “you will find that you agree with me, once you stop disagreeing with me and just admit that I am right.”

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Robert
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January 24, 2022 - 3:53 pm
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JAS

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January 24, 2022 - 3:58 pm

Y

Robert said
I think perhaps you’re paraphrasing Bren’s argument, not Goodacre’s argument, yes?

  

Yes, I was distracted by the use of quotation, but I cannot fix it now that you have posted after me.

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brenmcg

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January 24, 2022 - 6:24 pm

Robert said
 You may as well say something like, “Once it is recognized that the sky is not blue, grass is not green, and that space and time do not in fact exist, my LSD-inspired visions will be recognized as obviously true.”

  

No i think its this kind of unfounded certainty that has allowed markan priority to exist for so long.

To doubt the sky being blue or grass being green or space/time not existing would be to reject all of physics.

But Matthew and Mark are just two 1st century greek books either of which could be written first. Markan priority is just a best guess for most scholars. Were it to turn out that in fact Matthew were written first there would be precisely zero historical difficulties in understanding that.

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Robert
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January 24, 2022 - 6:56 pm
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brenmcg

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January 25, 2022 - 3:15 am

Great but consensus in biblical scholarship shouldnt be compared with consensus in physics. The information available to arrive at conclusions in physics is far greater than in biblical scholarship. There just isnt enough information available for bible scholars to come to the kind of definitive conclusions we get in physics, and opinions will only ever be on best guess basis.

No amount of consensus in biblical scholarship can justify the certainty you seem to have in markan priority.

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JAS

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January 25, 2022 - 5:37 am

If you think that physics is a field of absolute consensus, you must not know many physicists. Yes, some aspects of physics are subject to highly controlled tests that can be repeated by a wide variety of people and institutions, which is pretty much the best kind of confidence that one can get in any idea; and there is likely no equivalent in Biblical studies or most fields within the humanities.

In the case of the specific question being raised, we will probably never have a definitive answer; we only have the evidence we have, a set of ideas about that evidence that interpret and apply it in an attempt to reach an operative answer that might need to be refined or changed given new evidence or the emergence of better arguments in favor of other interpretations. In this admittedly imperfect situation, we can only do the best we can do.

Within our own abilities, we can look at the arguments available (or even generate our own new ones) and make our own judgements, but most of the time, and for most of us, we will necessarily need to rely, to some extent, on people who have dedicated the time and expertise to forming and evaluating those answers. It is why we can have some reliance on dictionaries and encyclopedias. If there is a generally established answer to such a question, to argue something else, particularly as that other argument radically differs from the generally accepted answer, a better case must be provided. So, make that case. It is not enough to say that we do not know for certain, so everyone has to accept all ideas as of equal value.

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Robert
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January 25, 2022 - 7:28 am
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jakejones

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January 25, 2022 - 9:09 am

Greetings Rob

Any recent discussions here on Markan priority?

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Stephen
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January 25, 2022 - 11:19 am

Mark’s very existence makes no sense unless it was first.  Once the historical memory of its provenance was lost the church really had no idea what to do with it. 

I’m working up a hypothesis claiming Johannine priority.  It’ll take me a while to come up with a clever title.  Once that’s done the actual argument should be easy. 

I’ll get back to you. 

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Robert
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January 25, 2022 - 11:44 am
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JAS

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January 25, 2022 - 12:10 pm

Stephen said
Mark’s very existence makes no sense unless it was first.  Once the historical memory of its provenance was lost the church really had no idea what to do with it. 

I’m working up a hypothesis claiming Johannine priority.  It’ll take me a while to come up with a clever title.  Once that’s done the actual argument should be easy. 

I’ll get back to you. 

  

Johnannie, Johnannie, Johnannie, Johnaaaaannniiie, don’t take away my theory just because you can. (Since it is probably not obvious, this is a Dolly Parton joke)

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JAS

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January 25, 2022 - 12:17 pm

My larger point is that too many people are quick to reject the idea of authority merely because those who are established in the field are unwilling to consider a new position, which can happen. On the other hand, there is often a good reason that the established ideas are well entrenched, and what may seem like a new idea can just be one more bad idea, or even one already rejected on its own merits.

To me, expertise is not a badge awarded so that people can provide a summary judgement as an answer and it must be accepted. Instead, expertise is the knowledge, understanding and skill that allows that person to construct and present not just a summary judgement, but the argument and evidence (such as it may be) that back it up, and survive scrutiny.

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brenmcg

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January 25, 2022 - 2:28 pm

Stephen said
Mark’s very existence makes no sense unless it was first.  

  

This is probably at the heart of what convinces most people of markan priority. But it incorrect.

The popularity of Matthew and Luke created problems in that the disagree with each other. 1 Tim 1:4 “instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine, and not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations

Mark’s gospel is intended to remove controversies and causes of argument and distill only the essentials of Jesus’ story from Matthew/Luke.

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Robert
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January 25, 2022 - 3:37 pm
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Stephen
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January 25, 2022 - 4:39 pm

Mark’s gospel is intended to remove controversies and causes of argument and distill only the essentials of Jesus’ story from Matthew/Luke.

Remove controversies like the conflicting Nativity episodes by having his mother and bothers treat Jesus as if he were crazy?   Resolving the conflicting resurrection accounts by having the women at the tomb freak out and say nothing to anyone?  The essentials of Jesus’ story doesn’t include the Sermon on the Mount?

It seems to me the real argument here is not about Markan priority but about how we should approach the accounts in the New Testament.  Markan priority is a child of the historical critical method which begins with the assumption that the writings of the NT should be approached as any other text.  If you begin with the assumption that the NT should be read straightforwardly as reportage based on a prior faith position then Markan priority is not going to make much sense to you.  Perhaps rather than more fruitless arguments about Markan priority we should be arguing about that.

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brenmcg

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January 25, 2022 - 5:57 pm

Stephen said

Remove controversies like the conflicting Nativity episodes by having his mother and bothers treat Jesus as if he were crazy? 

Difficult questions about the lord of the universe being a helpless child are removed by mark/john the two later gospels. Jesus family believing him to be out of his mind serves to separate Jesus from his earthly family and creates more of a christ like figure.

 

Resolving the conflicting resurrection accounts by having the women at the tomb freak out and say nothing to anyone?

The women saying nothing to anyone and introducing peter to matthews account shows the same development of luke/john where the womens role in witnessing the ressurection is reduced and the mens increased.

 

  The essentials of Jesus’ story doesn’t include the Sermon on the Mount?

Difficult issues in the sermon on the mount eg “not one jot or tittle will be removed from the law” and the lords prayer are removed.

Other verses from the sermon are preserved and scattered throughtout mark.

  

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