Stephen said
Which came first?  The doctrine of the Virgin Birth, or the mistranslation?  

Good question. The virgin mother is mentioned in the Greek translation, centuries before Christianity. The translation wasn’t a typo – many Jews read the “sign” of the child and the “young woman” to mean virgin. The controversy is down to the fact the world had varying meanings.

I read a funny one yesterday. An AI specialist went to Germany and got an English translation for his weather report. It said there was a good chance of snowballs. Turned out the word ‘eis’ in German can mean hail or icecream. This is why people can argue over translations. You have to go on the context. And in Isaiah the context is that this birth was going to be a “sign” to all the people. In other words it was going to be different.

Steefen said

Poohbear said

We grew up being told “There’s no evidence of any King David.”

This was meant to say “There is no King David.”

In 1993 we had the first evidence for the “house of David” (Tel Dan inscription)

Steefen

Tel Dan Inscription:

The broken and fragmentary inscription commemorates the victory of an Aramean king over his two southern neighbors: the “king of Israel” and the “king of the House of David.”

In the carefully incised text written in neat Aramaic characters, the Aramean king boasts that he, under the divine guidance of the god Hadad, vanquished several thousand Israelite and Judahite horsemen and charioteers before personally dispatching both of his royal opponents.

Unfortunately, the recovered fragments of the “House of David” inscription do not preserve the names of the specific kings involved in this brutal encounter, but most scholars believe the stela recounts a campaign of Hazael of Damascus in which he defeated both Jehoram of Israel and Ahaziah of Judah.

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Ahaziah of Judah:

Ahaziah of Judah (Hebrew: אֲחַזְיָה, ʼĂḥazyāh; Greek: Οχοζιας Okhozias; Latin: Ahazia) or Jehoahaz I (2 Chronicles 21:17; 25:23), was the sixth king of Judah, and the son of Jehoram and Athaliah, the daughter (or possibly sister) of king Ahab of Israel. He was also the first Judahite king to be descended from both the House of David and the House of Omri, through his mother and successor, Athaliah.

According to 2 Kings 8:26, Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to reign, and reigned for one year in Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles 22:2 gives his age as 42 years when his reign began in Jerusalem. Most scholars regard the 42 years in 2 Chronicles 22:2 as a copyist’s error for an original 22 years. The age of 22 is also found in some Greek and Syrian versions of 2 Chronicles 22:2.

William F. Albright has dated his reign to 842 BC, while E. R. Thiele offers the date 841/840 BC.

= = =

King David reigned 1010 – 970 BCE. Ahaziah reigned approximately 841 BCE.

= = =

Google question: What is the date of the Tel Dan Inscription?

Result
The Tel Dan stele is one of four known inscriptions made during a roughly 400-year period (1200-800 BCE) containing the name “Israel”, the others being the Merneptah Stele, the Mesha Stele, and the Kurkh Monolith.

Created: 870–750 BCE

Writing: Old Aramaic (Phoenician alphabet)

Discovered: 1993–94

Present location: Israel Museum

 

Steefen
It would probably have to be after the reign of Ahaziah.

Suppose back in 1010 BCE, David was not the king of a unified Judah-Israel.
Suppose back in 1010 BCE, Judah-Israel was under the authority of Egypt.
Suppose at a later time, history claimed  the unified Judah-Israel was under King David, city of David, star of David when actually, when you look at the names of the Egyptian authority, his name contained a star.
Suppose when David wrote, yea although I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, thy rod and thy staff they comfort me–suppose that is no more than a pharaoh musing on the Book of the Dead or hours in an amduat; and suppose thy rod and thy staff is no more than an icon of Osiris, the flail and crook, comforting the dead pharaoh as depicted on the sarcophagus of either Tut-ankh-amun or a later pharaoh?

What you have is not King David, but Pharaoh David.  

Now that’s an interesting take. I suppose you can say the monarchy of the house of David was first mentioned with Jacob in Genesis. Says that kings of Judah would last to the Messiah – assuming Jesus was himself a “King.”

Egypt did rule Israel in BC 1000. It’s sovereignty ended about the time of Moses with the Bronze Age Collapse that led to the destruction of all the empires and the near collapse of Egypt itself. This was a period of mass migration, BTW.

In David, like with John’s writings, we see a consistent person behind it. I respect that the bible doesn’t gloss over or ignore the failings of David. This makes the story more real. 

Unlike the Pharaohs the Jews didn’t not glorify their people with monuments. As for Egyptian musings – I super doubt it: so often David speaks of the coming Messiah. In fact, he’s the typology of the rejected and reigning King of Israel. 

Steefen said

Robert said
So whom do you think Matthew is intending that his readers should think Mary slept with? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?  

Matthew is letting us know Jesus was not conceived via intercourse of man into woman.

A character who was not conceived via intercourse of man into woman, during the first century C.E. would be a character conceived by an author. The science of that day only allowed for biological characters and fictional characters. The fictional characters can be characters of historical fiction.

John was conceived via intercourse of man into woman. Jesus was not.  

Steefen said

Robert said
So whom do you think Matthew is intending that his readers should think Mary slept with? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?  

Matthew is letting us know Jesus was not conceived via intercourse of man into woman.

A character who was not conceived via intercourse of man into woman, during the first century C.E. would be a character conceived by an author. The science of that day only allowed for biological characters and fictional characters. The fictional characters can be characters of historical fiction.

John was conceived via intercourse of man into woman. Jesus was not.  

It’s an interesting piece of fiction, the likes of which the world has never seen before.

Begins with Jacob (?) who spoke of the Messiah coming from the line of Judah and Israel would end with him. Job said the Redeemer lives now but would “stand on the earth in the latter days.” Moses, the “meekest man in all the world” said he would “like me.” David saw him as the rejected and reigning king – despised and crucified and not even believed upon by his brothers and sisters. Isaiah saw him in his glory and suffering and resurrection. Zechariah said the Jews would mourn when they finally see their Messiah king – it’s the one they crucified. And Daniel said he would die for his people by those who would destroy the Jewish nation.

How did people put all this together over 1500 years? Can you think of any other “fiction” stitched together in this fashion, and with very real predictions about their nation?