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Jesus Died for Our Sins That Could Not Simply Be Forgiven or Cleansed/Purged? Jesus Died only for the Sins That Required Atonement?
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Steefen
7786 Posts
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21
June 16, 2021 - 6:57 pm

I want to see what Bart says about the crucifixion and the resurrection:

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Steefen
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June 16, 2021 - 7:21 pm

Dr. Michael Heiser
The Day of Atonement is more than just about sin.

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Robert
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23
June 16, 2021 - 8:15 pm
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Steefen
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24
June 16, 2021 - 8:28 pm

The Bart Ehrman video is close to being a berating.

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IR_2017

136 Posts
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June 24, 2021 - 7:30 pm

“Dr. Ehrman, aren’t you leaving out Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement for cleansing misdeeds) as a way God provided a way for dealing with sin?”

 

is “yown kippur” a special day which has atoning powers because the deity decends in it? 

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JAS

948 Posts
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June 25, 2021 - 8:40 am

I have never understood the whole idea of sacrificing an animal as a necessary function of worship, at least not in the Judeo/Christian tradition. Pretty clearly the priests of many religions ate well on such offerings, but God as depicted in the Bible surely has no need to eat to sustain himself (and if he did eat, as we understand it, I hate to think of the consequences).

As a result, one problem I have long had is the whole question of why Jesus would need to die for the sins of humanity. Who is it who sets these rules that bind God’s options for action? If God sets them, should he not know better? (The requirement of a virgin birth is another one of these limitations that make little sense to me, especially with the added Catholic claim that Mary was also born from an immaculate conception. The God who creates by merely speaking could surely have brought forth his son from a cow or a stone, if he chose, and with more miraculous implications. I understand the idea that he might have wanted his son to experience first hand the full range of human existence, apparently other than old age, to assure us that he was fully sympathetic with the plight of our lives. That would have required only a more or less traditional birth process and infancy. People just end up tying themselves in knots in creating these complicated doctrinal digressions.)

The best explanation I have ever been able to work out on my own is that Jesus made the sacrifice not to satisfy some requirement by God but to show others that we should not be afraid of accepting the consequence of taking righteous stands. I am not sure that really works for me, as I would still be very much hesitant to follow his model without the confidence he would presumably have had from special knowledge. An alternative is that with people having adopted the tradition of sacrifices, God wanted to make a clear statement within that tradition. The problem there is that we did not get to see the life and sacrifice of Jesus, and relying on increasingly distant, unverifiable accounts is hardly more than marginally persuasive.

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Robert
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June 25, 2021 - 9:07 am
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Steefen
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June 25, 2021 - 12:22 pm

Iskander Robertson said
“Dr. Ehrman, aren’t you leaving out Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement for cleansing misdeeds) as a way God provided a way for dealing with sin?”

is “yown kippur” a special day which has atoning powers because the deity decends in it? 

  

What is your point?

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Steefen
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June 25, 2021 - 12:35 pm

JAS
The best explanations I have ever been able to work out on my own are

1 Jesus made the sacrifice not to satisfy some requirement by God but to show others that we should not be afraid of accepting the consequence of taking righteous stands.

2 With people having adopted the tradition of sacrifices, God wanted to make a clear statement within that tradition.

Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Hi JAS,

1
Jesus’ stand was not righteous because it was not politically savvy. Jewish Apocalypticism is not global Apocalypticism. That is ethnocentriscity.

The Jewish people suffered. God did not make sure we didn’t suffer. Maybe God will make things right for us Jewish people at the end. We want things made right, now. The end will be moved up in time because we are impatient. We will kick off the apocalypse by rebelling against Rome (35-40 years in the future).

 

2
God cannot make a clear statement with animal sacrifices, he needs to sacrifice a human, a divine son?

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Sapiensape43

53 Posts
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30
June 26, 2021 - 11:48 am

Iskander Robertson said
“Dr. Ehrman, aren’t you leaving out Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement for cleansing misdeeds) as a way God provided a way for dealing with sin?”

 

is “yown kippur” a special day which has atoning powers because the deity decends in it? 

  

My understanding is that Yom Kippur is day when ALL SINS ARE FORGIVEN, NOT JUST SOME. This means there was no need for Jesus to die to have atonement for sins, as God forgives everyone their sins, YEARLY.

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Sapiensape43

53 Posts
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31
June 26, 2021 - 11:54 am

Steefen said
JAS

The best explanations I have ever been able to work out on my own are

1 Jesus made the sacrifice not to satisfy some requirement by God but to show others that we should not be afraid of accepting the consequence of taking righteous stands.

2 With people having adopted the tradition of sacrifices, God wanted to make a clear statement within that tradition.

Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy

Hi JAS,

1

Jesus’ stand was not righteous because it was not politically savvy. Jewish Apocalypticism is not global Apocalypticism. That is ethnocentriscity.

The Jewish people suffered. God did not make sure we didn’t suffer. Maybe God will make things right for us Jewish people at the end. We want things made right, now. The end will be moved up in time because we are impatient. We will kick off the apocalypse by rebelling against Rome (35-40 years in the future).

 

2

God cannot make a clear statement with animal sacrifices, he needs to sacrifice a human, a divine son?

  

My understanding is that in the Old Testament the claim is made that God will not allow the unrighteous to triumph over the righteous. However, God will allow the unrighteous to be triumphed over by the unrighteous. Where as in the New Testament God will not intervene to protect the righteous, he allows the unrighteous to triumph. A “reversal” or “contradiction of OT teachings!
Iskander Robertson said

“Dr. Ehrman, aren’t you leaving out Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement for cleansing misdeeds) as a way God provided a way for dealing with sin?”

 

is “yown kippur” a special day which has atoning powers because the deity decends in it? 

  

My understanding is that Yom Kippur is day when ALL SINS ARE FORGIVEN, NOT JUST SOME. This means there was no need for Jesus to die to have atonement for sins, as God forgives everyone their sins, YEARLY.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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32
June 26, 2021 - 1:06 pm

sapienssape43
My understanding is that Yom Kippur is day when ALL SINS ARE FORGIVEN, NOT JUST SOME. This means there was no need for Jesus to die to have atonement for sins, as God forgives everyone their sins, YEARLY.

Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Josephus said the Christian creed, after quoting it (Testimonium Flavianum) was a sad calamity.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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33
June 26, 2021 - 1:09 pm

My understanding is that in the Old Testament the claim is made that God will not allow the unrighteous to triumph over the righteous. However, God will allow the unrighteous to be triumphed over by the unrighteous. Where as in the New Testament God will not intervene to protect the righteous, he allows the unrighteous to triumph. A “reversal” or “contradiction of OT teachings!

 

My Reply
Bart said that gave rise to Jewish Apocalypticism: in the end, righteousness does triumph over unrighteousness.

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IR_2017

136 Posts
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34
June 27, 2021 - 3:25 pm

“My understanding is that Yom Kippur is day when ALL SINS ARE FORGIVEN, NOT JUST SOME.”

 

the ot says that blood has atoning powers, is that an inherent quality of blood?

similarly, is the actuall day which is identified as “yom kippur” have inherent atoning powers? 

sabbath is a day of rest because the diety rested and made it a day of rest

did diety make yow kippur a day of atoning ? 

the tree of life has powers which can give some one eternal life

the tree of knowledge has powers which can give some one knowledge of good and evil

“So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

 

so here an object made from bronze can save one from dying. the snake has an inherent quality of saving in it? 

 

i am asking if these objects or concepts such as day have been given special powers from the ots perspective.

 

in other place bodies and objects become defiled, so does defilement become an inherent quality of these items? 

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JAS

948 Posts
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35
June 27, 2021 - 4:36 pm

“So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

so here an object made from bronze can save one from dying. the snake has an inherent quality of saving in it? 

  

I would recommend strongly against testing such a theory. (Yes, I presume that you are not actually proposing such an attempt.)

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IR_2017

136 Posts
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36
June 28, 2021 - 6:20 am

back to my question if you don’t mind, in biblical world, are objects and concepts have inherent atoning powers in them? 

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