When Paul spoke of being caught up in the air with Jesus, he thought it was happening before AD80 because he believed the end time was coming soon, right?
Which book on John Nelson Darby best explains the pros and cons of Dispensationalism?
Darby uses Paul’s rapture and Revelation’s thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ?
Chat-GPT4
Darby is best known for developing and popularizing Dispensationalism, a framework for interpreting the Bible that divides biblical history into distinct periods or “dispensations.” According to Dispensationalism, God interacts with humanity in different ways across these periods. This framework significantly influenced many Christians’ understanding of prophecy and end-times theology.
A key aspect of Darby’s Dispensationalist views was the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Darby taught that before the period of tribulation described in the Book of Revelation, faithful Christians would be “raptured,” or taken up to heaven, to escape the coming judgments on Earth. This idea had a profound impact on Christian eschatology, especially in the United States, where it influenced various denominations and became a core component of Evangelical and Fundamentalist end-times teachings.
Darby’s system of Dispensationalism, especially the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture, laid the groundwork for much of the 20th-century eschatological thinking found in Christian media, including the Scofield Reference Bible (1909), which popularized these teachings further.
Darby produced his own English translation of the Bible, known as the Darby Bible, completed in the late 19th century. He translated both the Old and New Testaments from Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, aiming for accuracy and clarity based on the original languages. His translation was intended to be a literal rendering, prioritizing the original text over traditional English phrasing, which he believed sometimes obscured meaning. The Darby Bible was designed to help readers understand doctrinal concepts without interpretation influenced by existing denominational biases.
The Darby Bible is still respected among some Christian circles, especially those that emphasize close adherence to the original languages and consider Darby’s theological perspectives valuable.
That’s a loaded question. I will provide a loaded answer.
The Days of Division
Lord have mercy for the day of wrath is forever, here and now as it was there and before.
What does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 10:1-5? What did he say? 1 Corinthians 10:11
Rapture theology is what I was raised and educated in during my youth at a Protestant school. At times I believed it, by the time I was 22 I was an apostate to the point I haven’t attended a church service in twenty years but I still dearly hold on to the stories. Reformed Protestant, we’re no longer a shadow KKK of the 20th century.
Rapture requires that the Christ will come again, the second coming. 1 Corinthians 15:17.
Zechariah 9:9-13 is the OT messiah prophecy. Zechariah 9:14-17 is 1 Corinthians 4:16. In context, those who are of the Church believed that Jesus was the Christ. Paul is trying to open their minds to the understanding that they the Church are now resurrected from the dead and are now the body of Christ. They are now alive because of Christ. The resurrection has already occurred.
Paul was before in charge of putting them in jail for breaking the Law of Moses, them who are the Church, but now he had quit that Sanhedrin job position because Jesus had resurrected from the dead the best he could understand (Acts 9, Saul’s Conversion) which had caused him to repent from persecuting the Church. He worships God the Father because of Christ, through the Church. The story suggest that there was a lightning strike very very close by them and he was knocked unconscious, had a dream, was blinded by arc flash, probably lost his hearing at the moment and was hearing voices in a dream when he was unconscious, became very superstitious and theological trying to make sense of it all and suffered from killers remorse because of everything. PTSD except Paul didn’t become a raging alcoholic afterwards. Christianity works very well as therapy and recovery (repentance) for hard drug addicts, drunks, and sometimes for violent criminals.
Misinterpretation of Paul.
Paul changes and separates the meaning of Christ and Jesus at times. Jesus is the Christ, but Christ is also the body of the Church, Ephesians 1:23, Therefore you will have at least two interpretations possible. One interpretation definitely suggests Rapture theology.
1 Corinthians 15:16.
Integrate all into a calculus and you have the limits between Zechariah 9:14 and Matthew 22:30 becoming 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The Rapture.
No one in particular had the whole idea figured out yet. The Sanhedrin considered all the prophecy (but not all the teachings) spoken by Jesus and John the Baptist to be blasphemy and what have you as historical fiction. Matthew 26:68
Daniel 12:2-4.
Then comes Ruby Ridge, David Koresh on the television, Oklahoma City bombing, Kurt Kobain suicide, Clinton and Lewinsky, the 90s. All this I remember happening live on TV.
So many memories. Awful.
Jewish Apocalypticism
Judgment and Tribulation > Then > The Kingdom of God on Earth forever.
Not until Paul gave us 1 Thess 4: 16-17 do we get The Rapture, thus
Pre-Tribulation Rapture > Judgement and Tribulation > Then > The Kingdom of God on Earth > a Thousand Years of the Kingdom (Revelation)
= = = = =
Dr. Ehrman,
Is the following correct?
Judgment and Tribulation, then, The Kingdom of God on Earth forever (The Synoptic Gospels)
Paul gave us 1 Thess 4: 16-17, The Rapture.
Then we have Pre-Tribulation Rapture, followed by Judgment and Tribulation,
then the Kingdom of God on Earth, as per Revelation for a thousand years only.
So the Jerusalem Church of Jesus’ disciples only would have been following what was later in the Synoptic gospels.
Pauline Gentile Christians in Thessolonika believed in the Rapture.
Then when Revelation was written, the Kingdom of God was cut from eternity to 1,0000 years?
@Steefen
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
(That’s the official answer provided in the Nicene Creed.)
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
(That’s the official answer in the Apostles Creed and Old Roman Creed)
We’re (nobody) not even supposed to know about the 70AD Temple destruction and Jewish Roman Wars. It’s not mentioned in the Council of Rome official Cannon nor the Nicene Creed. There’s not any texts surviving from the first century that anyone knows of.
The tribulation, Hell has been occurring for 2000 years or the Kingdom of God, Heaven has been occurring for 2000 years. Matthew 11:14, Luke 17:21.
Bart:
There is no rapture in 1 Thess. 4:16-17. That is discussing Jesus coming to rule the earth and destroy his enemies, not to take his followers out of the world before al hell breaks out. I talk about that in my book Heaven and Hell.
Steefen:
And is 1 Cor. 15: 50-55 not the Rapture?
Is the Rapture in the New Testament?
@Steefen
I’m inclined to the view that there are not one but two end times to reckon with:
– the end of the Jewish age (first century) and
– the end of the Gentile age.
In Matthew 24 Jesus is addressing Jews and answering questions about the end of the Jewish age, but in my view in 1Thessalonians 4 Paul describes the future resurrection at Christ’s return.
Luke 21:24 neatly distinguishes between these two end times:
“Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles (AD70 – end of the Jewish age) UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be FULFILLED.”
@Steefen
Moses and the Exodus provide an interesting contrast. There is one law for the wilderness journey, but additional laws are added for when Israel comes into the land and will have their own temple, judiciary and the other trappings of nationhood. Jesus anticipates these additional features were going to be lost by Israel after the laws of Christ superceded the laws of Moses and the new lawgiver had been rejected by national Israel. Different laws for different ages – but always the same morality.
I would identify the following ages regarding priesthood:
– antediluvian
– Abrahamic (Melchisdek priesthood – Israel a family)
– Mosaic (Levitical Priesthood – Israel a nation – from Moses to crucifixion and national judgement.)
– Crucifixion of Messiah fulfils the law (Christ now High Priest after the order of Melchisedek, necessitating a further change of the law (Hebrews 7:11-14).
National Israel (part 1) refused to hear the prophet like Moses (Deut 18:15) and experienced national death (Deut 28: 49, Matt 24:28), and that’s what I meant earlier by referring to the end of the Jewish age.
Times of the Gentiles fill the void until the dead body of National Israel is resurrected (Ezekiel 37).
National Israel (part2) would be established at Messiah’s return and some events subsequent to that (defeat of northern invader and building the temple) are outlined in the final chapters of Ezekiel 38-48.
I would consider the Times of the Gentiles primarily refer to the control of Jerusalem. One view would be that we are struggling through the Zech 12:1-3 stage currently and it would take the return of Messiah before the Times of the Gentiles would be fully fulfilled.
So it seems to me that the real question is – do these apocalyptic prophecies relate to the work of Messiah himself, or do they teach a personal antichrist must appear before a Hal-Lindsay-Christendom would be prepared to recognise the appearance of the real Jesus Christ?
Bart:
There is no rapture in 1 Thess. 4:16-17. That is discussing Jesus coming to rule the earth and destroy his enemies, not to take his followers out of the world before al hell breaks out. I talk about that in my book Heaven and Hell.
Steefen:
And is 1 Cor. 15: 50-55 not the Rapture?
Is the Rapture in the New Testament?
Bart’s response:
Nope, it’s not talking about the rapture. It’s the return of Jesus for judgment and the resurrection of the dead. The idea of a “rapture” was invent by John Nelson Darby in the 1830s; no one had the idea before that. I have a lengthy discussion of this in my book Armaggedon.
Steefen’s Response:
In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus says some of you standing will see the Son of Man coming, but in John, you have to be born again to get into the Kingdom. 1 Cor 15:50 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Paul, then, is the basis for Gospel of John. So, let’s get together as spirits and enter the kingdom; not, let’s get together with the resurrected to enjoy the kingdom on earth as the Synoptics say. Either Jesus is going to come to us on earth OR Jesus is going to rapture us to the Kingdom of Heaven. We do not need Darby for us to see the two different positions: The Synoptics vs Paul and Gospel of John.
1 Thess leaves us hanging in the air. But you are saying Paul’s scene finishes by us meeting Jesus in the clouds and I guess, Jesus brings us all back down to earth where the Kingdom of Righteousness under the Son of Man was supposed to be. In Gospel of Jn and 1 Cor, Flesh and blood doesn’t enter Heaven, which, then, must not be on earth.
And you went and complicated the contradiction?
@Jack888
Either Jesus said not one letter of the scripture changes with him or he didn’t. You can’t make up laws for before and laws after.
Crucifixion of Messiah does not fulfill the law and it certainly does not necessitate a further change of the law.
Either Jesus said not one letter of the scripture changes or he didn’t.
AD70 was not a national death because of the rulers of Judea did not hear Jesus.
Your quoting of Matthew 24:28 is
New International Version
Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
The end of the Jewish age was not the crucifixion of a composite character of historical fiction within a fictional narrative.
You think National Israel is being resurrected by the way Israel is horrifically treating the people of Gaza? The Messiah is going to return after this struggle through Zech 12:1-3?
The real Jesus Christ should have done something by now.
@Steefen
Well what Jesus actually said (according to the NKJV) was
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
So in what way do you think the law was not fulfilled before Jesus came?
And what do you think he had to do to fulfil it?
Preterism
Tribulation occurred throughout the 1st and 4th centuries.
The coming(s) of Christ also occurred throughout the 1st to 4th century as though Christ is the Church when Catholic was made the religion of the Roman Empire.
The fight against the Cathers and Muslims during the Crusades and Inquisition is the 1000 years, Beast, 1000 years again stuff in Revelation.
That’s the way she goes.
The NT is like the Torah and Jewish Bible, except the Church:Sadducees never added anymore books to it besides the Torah:NT.
Steefen
Either Jesus said not one letter of the scripture changes with him or he didn’t.
@Jack888
Well what Jesus actually said (according to the NKJV) was
Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Steefen
You know I’m referencing the next verse:
New International Version
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Jack888
So in what way do you think the law was not fulfilled before Jesus came?
And what do you think he had to do to fulfil it?
Steefen
One thing that wasn’t fulfilled were the verses of Zechariah:
Jerusalem was to become a tourist destination of inspiration
Jesus could have helped with that but when he went to Jerusalem, he and that vision was not on the agenda with the rulers of Jerusalem.
Paul says he would not know what sin was or that sin existed if not for the Law because he was a psychopath but obeyed the Law out of fear of death. Something like that, Paul says they are no longer under the Law because they are already dead in spirit because they broke the Law. Paul says they are already dead but alive in Christ. They should praise God through Christ and not break the Law anymore because they are alive in Christ. They and Christ will suffer the same fate because they are one in spirit. Paul says,
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
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Robert