Parts of the Hebrew Bible insist on the absolute purity of the Israelites – they are to have no contact with outside influences that might compromise their devotion to Yahweh, the God of Israel, in any way whatsoever. If they do come to be influenced by outsiders, God punishes them severely; and sometimes, as a further response, he orders the slaughter of the outsiders. This is the wrath of God in its most severe and unbending form, evidently against people who didn’t even know he existed.
Nowhere is this theme shown more graphically than in the case of Moses and the Midianites, as found in Numbers 25 and 31, passages that I would venture to say very few people on the blog or otherwise have ever read or at least paid much attention to. But they are among the most horrifying narratives of the entire Hebrew Bible.
The account begins with a group of outsiders, the Moabites (inhabitants of the land of Moab). While Israel is still in the wilderness during their 40 year wandering, prior to entering the promised land, some Israelite men have sexual relations with Moabite women, who invite them to worship the Moabite god Baal, at the city of Peor. The Israelite men go to some of the pagan festivals and participate in them, either keeping their lovers happy or for pure religious reasons.
God is incensed and orders Moses to punish the chiefs of the tribes of Israel, evidently because they have failed to keep their people in line. These Israelite leaders are to be publicly impaled in broad daylight (Num 25:4). Moreover, anyone who participated in this heinous worship of Baal is to be executed (Num 25:5). We learn later that God also then sent a plague against the entire people of Israel in retaliation for the sins of some of them, killing 24,000 people (Num 25:9).
But that’s just the beginning of the problem. As the Israelites are mourning over these events and dying from the plague, an Israelite man brings a woman from Midian into his tent, and a zealous relative of Moses deals with the problem right away out of righteous anger, bursting into the tent and driving a spear through both of them, apparently while joined in a sex act. God is very pleased with this religious fervor and brings the plague to an end (Num 25:9).
But the punishment does not end there. God then goes after the Midianites, who are a bad influence on his chosen ones (some readers find it odd that the Midianites and Moabites get a bit mixed up in the narrative; scholars typically argue that the editor of Numbers has combined two stories together because of their similar theme, the impurity of outsiders and God’s wrath against anyone who participates in it). And so God orders orders a holy war (Num 31). The Israelites are to wreak vengeance on the Midianites. Moses sends out an army of 12,000 soldiers. It is a war without mercy. The Israelite soldiers kill every single Midianite man, including all five kings ruling over different parts of their land (Num 31:7). The Israelites then take the women and children captive, along with all their animals and possessions, and they burn all the towns.
It turns out that even this is not enough to satisfy God’s demands. The Midianite women and children have been taken into slavery, but Moses is angry: the women were not supposed to be spared from the slaughter (Num 31:15). It was foreign women who had been the problem. They were the ones who had led Israelite men to the worship of Baal (all the women?!?). So they need to be dealt with. It’s not good enough that they are enslaved. Or the children either.
Moses orders that every male child be murdered, along with every woman who had ever had sex (even with her husband). He tells the Israelite soldiers to spare the Midianite girls who have never had sex. Well, sort of spared. Moses tells his soldiers that the virgin girls they can “keep alive for yourselves.” Kept for what? Either they are simply enslaved, or, more likely, since the criterion of their escape from death is sexual, they are made sex slaves (Num 31:16-18). All the booty –oxen, donkeys, sheep, goats, gold, jewelry, and so on – is divided up between the warriors and the rest of the Israelites, with a part being offered up to the sanctuary of God (the gold could be used for vessels connected with worship).
I have known very few readers of the Bible over the years who are even aware of biblical accounts like this. I guess that makes sense: how many people do you know who have read Numbers recently? But it’s in the Bible, the book that Jews and Christians have considered sacred Scripture from the outset. What does one do with this kind of story?
Those few who do know about it often try to soften it or justify it: God is just and he insists his people need to be pure and removed from outside influences; sometimes that requires harsh measures. But really? The women and boys (including infants!!) had to be slaughtered in cold blood so Israelites wouldn’t be drawn to the worship of other gods? The young girls who had never had sex can be “kept” by the Israelite men? What kind of religion is this?
I don’t think there is really any way to get around just how horrendous it is. And we might justifiably ask: Is this the God people want to worship? And, well, emulate? If so, shouldn’t they do what he demands, and slaughter everyone who might lead them into impurity? I suppose most readers would say that these were exceptional circumstances, not models of action. But even on those terms: slaughtering innocent people because they worshiped differently?
Many Christians, of course, simply assign it to the Old Testament and say either that this is how it *used* to be or that it shows how awful Judaism was in relation to what came after, with the religion of love found in the New Testament.
In my book I will be arguing that this (common) view cannot be held up in light of the book of Revelation. In fact, the slaughter of the Midianite innocents pales in comparison with God’s wrath at the end of time, when the angel of God sends forth his sickle to harvest the earth and throws the dead into the “wine press of the wrath of God” until the blood flows “as high as a horse’s bridle for a distance of about two hundred miles” (Rev 14:7) . And in Revelation that is *before* the worst happens at the end, when everyone on earth — man, woman, and child of every nation — who does not worship God properly is thrown into the Lake of fire.
It is a serious mistake to think that the God of the New Testament (from beginning to end) is all about love and mercy.
But it is also a mistake to think that all the authors of the New Testament all have the same views about God. Part of what I will be arguing in my book is that the God portrayed in these passages of divine wrath against those who fail to worship him in his divinely prescribed ways is not the God of Jesus. Jesus, and some of his followers, had a different idea, that it was far less about who or how you worshiped than about how you lived in relation to your fellow human.
Whether or not one finds that religiously important, interesting, or satisfying, I think it is true as a historical statement and worth noting even for those of us who are not believers.
Hi Dr Ehrman!
So would this have been a real historical event? I mean, why would this have been included in the scriptures? If one assumes that there is no God, how are passages like this explained historically?
Thank you!
THe narratives of the Bible are not meant to be “objective accounts” of “what really happeened” in the way modern works of history are. No, these accounts as narrated did not actually happen. True, the authors may have *thought* they did; but they didn’t do historical research to find out. And their point in telling the stories was not to describe teh past as it really happened as much as to draw some religious conclusions about it. THe tales are included in Scripture becuase those who collected the books together found these religous views extremely important.
Thank you!!
“And their point in telling the stories was not to describe teh past as it really happened as much as to draw some religious conclusions about it.”
True. The whole account is a religious lesson as evidenced by the fantastical conversation between Balaam and his donkey.
Num 22:23 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn in his hand, the donkey turned off from the road and went into the field; and Balaam struck the donkey to guide her back onto the road.
Num 22:25 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed herself against the wall and pressed Balaam’s foot against the wall, so he struck her again.
Num 22:28 Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?”
Num 22:29 And Balaam said to the donkey, “It is because you have made a mockery of me! If only there had been a sword in my hand! For I would have killed you by now!”
Thus to ask the question “Is This a God You Want to Worship” is, in this instance, nonsensical.
“True. The whole account is a religious lesson as evidenced by the fantastical conversation between Balaam and his donkey.”
what makes you think this conversation was not believed to be a real conversation by the writers just like the command to kill 3 year olds or the command to have no other gods besides yhwh?
this extreme story of talking to a donkey makes a point—there are people who have agenda’s that even a talking donkey will not dissuade them. so we see this balaam mentality in the religious leadership when Jesus is threatening to heal people in the temple.
The only way I can “understand” God’s monstrous acts is to see the writer or writers of the various books of the Bible as people who are the ancestors of our far-right religious groups in the three Abrahamic religions. We have all seen how religious fanatics take their instruction from their God and engage in mass murder. The one good thing I can say about Christian fanatics believing God wants them to kill the infidel is that they have not killed hundreds or thousands. Jewish fanatics can be very scary to other Jews like me. Here is one example: “[P]lease God, we will go from door to door, from city to city, from place to place, and we will convince all of the people of Israel that it’s us or them. We must expel all of our enemies now!”
-Baruch Marzel
You may not agree with me, but I think the biblical authors of these horrible stories wanted to scare their readers into changing their behavior, or the God YHWH would utterly destroy them. Looking forward to your responses.
Richard
I think that is indeed one of the main reasons for telling the stories…
richard ??? actually you should learn history a bit more. christians have NOT killed hundreds or thousands? the crusades. the inquisition. the roman catholic churches many adventures worldwide. look up just the persecution of the jews outside of ww2. then add a liberal sprinkling of witch and heretic burning
Add the victims who died as a result of the Doctrine of Discovery as applied to the Americas, plus those killed during The Thirty Years War and hundreds, maybe thousands of other intra European wars.
Is it possible the total genocide of Arab Midianites was a total fiction supposed to inspire postexilic zealous xenophobic Jews to have no mercy against their rival cousins who inhabited in the land of Israel? Such a story seems to work just fine for modern “settlers”.
The biblical author even has Moses behaving like Pharaoh, ordering the killing of male children.
He has Moses ordering the extermination of a people who gave him shelter and asylum when he fled from Egypt, thus characterizing him as a total ingrate – this contrasts his earlier invitation to Arab Midianites to join them in their journey to the promised land.
Oh yes, I think it’s a complete fiction. My point is that it’s teh way God is portrayed in parts of the BIble, as the one who urges genocide.
In the horrific (thank God, fictional) episode in Numbers 31:40, 32 virgins were set apart for God (?). What did this mean to the Jewish reader in antiquity? Were they to be dedicated or sacrificed to YHWH? Or did they simply belong to the high priest as slaves/concubines? How did you deal with these embarrassing texts as an evangelical preacher? What kind of justifications or apologetic excuses did you come up with in order to convince yourself and others to believe that such traumatizing stories in the bible were the inerrant word of a loving god who committed suicide for our sins?
It’s not clear to me if they were concubines or sex slaves or .. what. As an evangelical I suppose I thought it meant that they were designated to be servants in the Temple. Maybe that *is* what they are?
Hi Bart. You may know a book by John Shelby Spong called The Sins Of Scripture, which covers similar ideas.
Great blog, and I really enjoy your books, Youtube videos etc.
Keep up the great work.
From ‘Good Omens’:
“I mean, you’re right about the fire and war, all that. But that Rapture stuff – well, if you could see them all in Heaven – serried ranks of them as far as the mind can follow and beyond, league after league of us, flaming swords, all that, well, what I’m trying to say is who has the time to go round picking people out and popping them up in the air to sneer at the people dying of radiation sickness on the parched and burning earth below them? If that’s your idea of a morally acceptable time, I might add.”
A great book by two of the greatest authors of our time.
Thanks for the recommendation. Cheers.
I think the sheer horror of some of the passages you highlighted most likely played a part in Marcion forming his ideas.
I really wish modern Christians would take him more seriously.
For readers of the blog,
To understand why purity mattered so much to this geographical area of the world.
Look no further than the Muslims & Arabs (Hebrew cousins & neighbors) these days.
They practice purity through ablution “ وضوء“ before any prayer or any religious ritual.
Just google to see the practice. The meaning of the word in Arabic has reference to being shiny & full of light.
The whole shebang about purity is the mythical perception of how to attain prosperity.
For example,
When listening to a healthcare program nowadays, you will be told that
Proper hygiene, proper diet & active lifestyle would keep you healthy.
Now at ancient times when there was technically no science. It is all mythical.
Hygiene = purity,
Diet= Kosher or Halal,
Active lifestyle = life of rituals & prayers.
Modern day Health would equal ancient prosperity, physical & psychological health.
So when Moses (Purity) or Jesus (Baptism~ shower) or Mohammed (ablution), they all trying to attain prosperity for their followers through their mythical primitive perceptions of what & how to attain PURITY.
When you go against their convictions, you get under their wrath. While Moses & Mohammed had military might which make you expect a nasty barbaric response for disobedience, Jesus & his initially tiny group of followers didn’t have access to weapons or training for a such nasty response. So Jesus response was limited to insults & degrading his opponents while his delusional followers after his demise portrayed hell broke loose to their opponents (lake of fire 🔥).
The short answer is “no”. Never at any time in the past or present or future. Simply “no”. Not. Never. No way.
Is there any historical evidence that Moses or Jesus asked his followers to believe in the Old Testament and the New Testament as the Word of God?
The answer is vital because it can help to confirm the horrible stories were divinely inspired or otherwise. If the answer is “No”, it is only fair that we should not accept these cruel stories and the so called “God’s wrath” as true.
Historically? I don’t think MOses existed. ANd Jesus simply assumed the Hebrew Bible came from God. THe New Testament had not been written yet, so he made no comment on it.
The God of Israel is nothing but inconsistent. Abraham marries Keturah and fathers the Midianites. Moses marries a Midianite, Joseph marries an Egyptian, David marries a (perhaps) Hittite, Boaz marries a Moabite, Judah marries a Canaanite, Samson marries a Philistine…. And no one is punished for their consorting with foreign women. Seems to me that the revolting narrative told in Numbers 25 says more about its priestly authors/redactors than it does about “God.” I’d be curious to know why the storytellers thought such horrific tales needed to be told, why THEY (not God) thought purity and unflinching devotion to Yahweh were so essential.
Purity of Essence. Jack Ripper.
A history question: Did that actually happen?
Nope. I’ll be postin on it.
Do most scholars believe that this horrendous story is just that…a story and does not have a historical basis?
Yup.
Why then believe any of it, old or new? The Preacher said, “there is nothing new under the sun.” A third of humanity (half, including Muslims) thinks this stuff really happened. No wonder the world is such a mess. Now Afghanistan has become the latest victim. My state of California burns, and we can barely agree the sun rises in the East, what to say of global warming. How can we survive what is surely a plague of biblical proportions coming if we can’t put this book back in the fiction section?
I think a lot of the Bible is indeed legendary. I also think that this does not mean it should be trashed. Myths and legends are just as evocative of truth as bland historical narratives of names and dates.
How did Moody Bible Institute handle these passages?
I think most peole there thought that these passges revealed the justice of God and the need to obey him, and based on Romans 1:18-32 they believed these Canaanites *knew* that he was true God but refuse to worship him anyway.
I am getting ready to throw on my skirt and head to my fundamental baptist church here in a few hours…so I agree with Mr. Ehrman that many Christians believe that the Canaanites *knew* he was the true God, and were actively trying to drag the Israelites away from their faith.
This was the first passage that ever made me question my faith. If God is the Almighty, all powerful creator he could have handled this situation a million different and better ways. Also shows the ancient disregard for women after they were no longer “pure” and therefore not valuable as a commodity to the tribe. Apparently as well- virgins could not lead the men astray to other gods, only non-virgins could do that. This right here shows that this passage is not divine inspired, as that line of thought was purely man made and rampant during these times (and in parts of the world still until this time today).
“Is This a God You Want to Worship?”
Jesus did.
Mark 12:29-30 “Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, ISRAEL! THE LORD IS OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE;
‘AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’’ (caps from translation)
Matthew 10:28 “And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
BTW, many Christians read their whole Bible cover to cover.
Treason. For the Jews to worship another god is treason. Even human governments harshly punish treason.
Would Jesus have said to a follower who wanted to worship a Roman god: Sure go for it, just remember to love your neighbor!
Never! Let’s get real here.
I think you are right! Jesus worshipped that “god”. That would be a good reason not to worship Jesus, would it not?
totally agree, ever since i began learning more about christianity he would seem to be more and more monstrous
Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns
what if you don’t keep it holy? then obviously your “love” for god must be demonstrated , how?
3 You shall not murder.[c]
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
but what if you do do the opposite of these? you have to demonstrate your love for god, how?
the answer the torah provides is death penalty. when god commanded the people to pelt the man who broke sabbath with stones, the people pelting him “loved god with all their heart” it would be injustice to separate the commands of god from his punishment commands. you can’t make one greater than the other.
hector avalos in his book “bad jesus” has demonstrated that jesus would not have disagreed with stoning to death of breakers of yhwhs laws.
What are your thoughts on what is behind this?
Given my limited understanding of the context, I am by no means confident in what I think on the matter. I’m not surprised though (even if a bit appalled) that this might come from a Jew during the exile or after some other tragedy/defeat. Brutally destroying one’s enemies is something I can see an enraged, conquered person fantasizing about. Believing that God had given them the land, along with having conquered it at some point in the past, could serve someone’s sense of entitlement to having the land. Are you familiar with the concepts of narcissistic injury and narcissistic rage? I’ve often thought God is portrayed, in some parts of the Bible, as being rather narcissistic. Demanding admiration, being envious, only associating with special people, and being easily slighted. I’m not suggesting that God or the writers of the Bible necessarily had a DSM-5 personality disorder. At the very least though, perhaps these stories reflect narcissistic reactions and defenses to what the writers/Jewish people experienced. Including during Roman occupation.
I want to say that the behavior of Yaweh as illustrated in this account should be a clear example of the evolution of paganism into Judaism, but were pagan gods equally vengeful/violent against humans?
Not like this, no. But I’m not sure I’d say that ancient Israelite religion was “better” or “worse” than the alternatives…
Thank you for this cheerful post. I am a practicing Catholic (at least in my own mind) so I do struggle with these facts you describe. I´m finding that your posts are clarifying what I have been thinking for some time regarding the Catholic church and religion in general. I often feel lost in Church among my friends since so much of what the Church teaches is contradictory to the facts of history. Most of what I know and the people I love are in the Church.
I wonder how many Israelites felt the same as I do when they rode into battle against the Midianites?
Bart,
Just curious to hear your view on the subject of intermarrying with non Israelite women. It seems that in many cases the Israelites married outside Israel. The most famous being Ruth, the Moabitess. If I remember correctly, in Jesus’ lineage there are three women mentioned and all not Israelites. So was this a later addition to the earlier sagas? I know it was an issue in Ezra’s day. In my opinion, a little over the top to say the least.
I look forward to your book on Revelation. It has been a subject of interest of mine for years.
Thanks
I’d say that as with most things, some Israelites were fer it and others agin it…
Did God authorize or command human and child sacrifice in some parts of the OT? Are statements to the effect that the first-born belong to God sometimes references to child sacrifice?
ONly in the case of Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac, which GOd then stopped once he saw that Abraham was going to go through iwth it.
Dear mr. Ehrman
Is it right to conclude, after reading this blog, that – in the opinion of the writers of the OT – only members of the Jewish tribes had to obey the Ten Commandments? And that these commandments only applied to these tribes, in this way binding them together as one tribe worshipping this one god and his commandments without worrying about and even cruelly killing all others.
Didn’t later Christians recognise this nasty way of thinking in the OT? Or was this instead perhaps an important reason for the hesitation to canonise the Book of Revelation?
I’d say there wasn’t any one view among all these various authors. But none of them separated the Ten Commandments from all the other commandments, the way Christians do. As a rule they did think that most of the commandments applied only to Israel, but it was expected that non-Israelites were to behave well too — not keeping rules like circumcision and Sabbath, but at least living what we would today call ethical lives.
Really eye-opening piece! It’s indeed staggering that the vast majority of believers are not aware of such truly evil passages; and it’s even crazier that even those who are aware of them are not thwarted from continuing to believe!
Bart, a year ago today I ran into the contradictions in the gospel’s empty tomb narratives, and my deconversion process began. That day I went to YouTube hoping for someone like William lane Craig to reassure me; instead, I ran into you for the first time, Bart lol. I disliked you at first, but now you’re one of my heroes. If I still believed in him, I would thank god for you lol. Instead, I’ll thank you (you are the one who decided to study and share your knowledge, so thanking you is more appropriate anyway). Because of you and your work, I’m a more knowledgeable person and I think I’m a better person as well (For one thing, I’m no longer worshipping the moral monster talked about in this post, and trying to be “godly”). So, thank you so much.
But don’t the synoptics also talk about the harvesting at end times and separating the wheat from the chaff?
I don’t thin revelation is that different – just more graphic. Its a dream which needs interpreting as the author himself says.
Do you suppose the author or authors of this passage in Numbers knew about the story of Zipporah?
Seems unlikely, but I suppose there’s no way to know for sure.
Is it the case, possibly, that just a certain early Christian movements emphasized (or only where to) certain gospels and/or epistles; so too early Christians emphasized certain books of the Hebrew scriptures and de-emphasize others?
For example, was Jesus consciously more in line with, say, Amos where social justice issues were paramount, as opposed to Numbers where ritual purity was more important? Or is that just what it looks like in hindsight?
I think that probably is the case.
Not the God of Jesus? Not the God of “Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;?” Sounds lake-of-fire-ish to me.
Yup, ,it does sound that way. I”m going to argue there’s a difference. NOt necessarily a satisfying one, but a big one.
Similar thinking was used to justify the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials. And it is currently about to take over a country where we started a very, very foolish war that we could never win.
The mention of blood flowing “as high as a horse’s bridle” appears in Revelation 14:20, not 14:7.
Hi Dr Ehrman!
Two NT related questions here:
1. In Matt26:2 since Jesus believed the son of man to be someone other than himself, how does one make sense of this passage?
2. Matt 28:19-20 : did Jesus actually say any of this? This passage seems radically different to the rest of Matthew where there are no other trinity-like references, and not to mention it’s contradiction of Matt 10:5?
Thank you!
1. It’s tricky. Jesus himself believed that. But Matthew, the author of the verse, did not. For Matthew, living 50 years later, Jesus *was* and *is* the Son of Man, and he wrote in part to show it. 2. I don’t think it’s historical, no. It’s an instance of later Christians showing that their mission originated at Jesus’ behest.
“…the angel of God sends forth his sickle to harvest the earth and throws the dead into the “wine press of the wrath of God” until the blood flows “as high as a horse’s bridle for a distance of about two hundred miles” (Rev 14:7) .”
It’s actually Rev 14:20.
Thanks, Bart! <3
Right!
“The Bible Says THAT?!” – http://goodlife.doug-long.com/46.htm
“Jesus and his followers may have had their own interpretations of the OT (they had different interpretations even among themselves), but they would have been shocked and offended if anyone suggested their God was anything other than the God of the Jews who created the world, chose Israel to be his people, promised to be with them as their divine protector, guided them on their journey, and punished them when they went astray.”
“But it is also a mistake to think that all the authors of the New Testament all have the same views about God. Part of what I will be arguing in my book is that the God portrayed in these passages of divine wrath against those who fail to worship him in his divinely prescribed ways is not the God of Jesus. Jesus, and some of his followers, had a different idea, that it was far less about who or how you worshiped than about how you lived in relation to your fellow human.”
The above are two different statements you have made about this subject. They seem to be contradictory regarding the God of Jesus. Would you please elucidate?
I”m saying that Jesus and his followrs would have claimed that their GOd was the God of ancient Israel as portrayed in teh Hebrew Scriptures, and that in my evaluation he was very different.
Bearing in mind what the Taliban are doing to the Afgan women right now, this seems to be on topic.
Was that deliberate?
I wrote it before the disaster struck.
I have often wondered how these kinds of mash-ups actually came to be? If there were two stories – or traditions – involving Moab and Midian – how does someone actually write a story which switches indiscriminately from one name to the other without thinking to themselves “this is weird – maybe I should replace one with the other”. Another example are the two creation stories in genesis – one right after the other – where you would think a redactor would notice the differences and somehow try to reconcile them.
Ah, you should read university student papers sometime. ANd the students have far more formal education than alnost any of the authors of the BIble! It’s very easy indeed to slip up and create contradictions.
1. God told Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites” and they have followed God’s order, why do they have to purify themselves after killing?
Num 31:19
Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives.
I do understand that some activities are listed as making a person unclean, but if God is asking them to do even something unclean, should not Israelites stay clean because they were following God’s order? Or why would God ask them to do something unclean? As almighty God, He could kill anyone just by saying a word…
2. The killing in Numbers is bad.
What about 1 Sam 15:3
“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”
Isn’t this one even worse? God is commanding to kill children, infants even animals..
And God’s not happy that Saul didn’t kill all the animals…. “God regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.”
Because of animals???
By my standards none of them is good…
Genesis 7:23 (NRSV)
He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, human beings and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark.
I’m not sure anything tops the above.
the text is saying obediance is better than sacrifice. so when god said kill everyone, he meant kill everyone. you demonstrate “love thy god with all thy heart” through obediance.
this destroys christianity in the sense that christianity makes jesus’ sacrifice better than obediance, but judaism says obediance is better than sacrifice.
old testament says obediance is better than sacrifice.
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obedience to the voice of the Lord? Surely, to obey is better than sacrifice,”
now if every one is “born in sin” and is “spiritual trash” how do they love god, obey god and able to do something better than sacrifice?
from gods point of view, poor saul was thinking like a christian and thought that the burnt offerings and sacrifices will get him in gods good book.
I really don’t relate to many of the OT stories as litteraly correct narratives. I’m sure that’s why many of these stories (at least to the greatest extent) lack historical support.
Like the story of Exodus and of Moses (“the one who draws out”) is more a meditation literature for me, to be read repetedly where you understand the meaning in repetition and meditation. The literal horrendious narratives which this post refers to must, in my mind, be read as symbolic meaning.The plots and plot line that unfold give a specific message, even the different characters that also in these stories must be understood symbolically. Even the Gal 4: 22-26 argues for an allegorical interpretation of Abraham’s two sons.
A relevant example, while talking about the Revelation which I read and understand as a symbolic narrative of soul ascension. The narrative uses the methology which is used in Kundulini meditation, or Kundulini awakening. The message for them is about spiritual awakening, reunification with God through the 7 spiritual centers within the body. Beside that, there are a lot of other paralells between this Kundulini meditation/awakening framework and the Revelation, like other symbology and other numerological symbols.
CONTINUE
CONTINUE:
So the point is, for example, if you consider the plot of the Revelation, with all its characters and creatures and events in the much older Kundulini meditation/exercise/awakening context (also found in Cadeceus of Gulash, Sumaria 2500 BCE, in Egypt in Staff of Thot , even the Eye of Horous as the 7th, upper spirtual center and if one likes the Pineal gland, and more) , points to a soul-ascending story. In this context which in my mind have a lot of similarities with “our” book of Revelation, it points to an inner process up to the highest conciousnsess or God. All the symbologies are things that happen in our own spiritual development, and not terrible events outside of us if you read it literally.
At least one thing is sure. The narrative and understanding of it can dramatically change depending on the premise the story is read upon.
When thy eye BE SINGLE, thine whole body shall be filled with light. – Matt. 6:22.
Nothing there about anybody dying, or anybody killing, or anybody dying for another. The message is mystic. The sooner the world gets it, the better. All the dying and killing is personal, not about others at all, but about the self dying. The Gospel of Judas is Judas sacrificing HIMSELF. How can this be so hard for some to understand?
Plato/Socrates couldn´t invent a better example of more evil consequences of Euthyphro´s dilemma. I don´t even think these passages are that unknown to the general public. Take for example Abraham-Isaac near sacrifice story, same principle (blind obedience no matter what) here… So much for the supposed source of ethics IMHO.
Do we know how “ancient” Jews interpreted these stories – either in BCE times or Rabbinic? Were they treated as hyperbole to make a point about being vigilant or as a treat of wrath hanging over the people at all times?
I don’t know of any discussions BCE. But my impression is that for most of history most Jews understood these as historical events.
I have long thought that the story in Numbers is one of the worst in the OT, although the follow-up in Joshua and Judges is about the same. Imagine being a soldier given that command. Do you kill the parents first so they don’t have to watch the children die, or the children first so they don’t have to watch their parents die? And then, “I just killed your family, but you’re young and pretty, so you now are going to be my wife.” And to make matters worse: it didn’t work! The Israelites continued to be plagued with idolatry (although some might argue it is because they didn’t kill enough people!). I take (little) solace in the knowledge that these events did not happen as written. Rather than being eradicated, we are told later: “Now the Midianites, the Amalekites, and all the people of the east were lying in the valley as numerous as locusts; and their camels were without number, as numerous as the sand on the seashore.” Judges 7:12 Still, what kind of mind envisions a God capable of such unnecessary carnage? And don’t forget: Moses himself was married to the daughter of a Midianite priest! That makes him one of the biggest hypocrites in the Bible in my opinion.
“I filled the caves and ravines of the mountains with their corpses,”
“I made heaps of their corpses, like grain piled beside their gates; their cities I ravaged, I turned them into ruinous hills”
Tukulti-Ninurta , assyrian king.
Did the Jews were so different from the Assyrians in terms of treating their enemies ??
I don’t think so.
Probably those passages on the OT were not “historical” in the sense we use the word now, but
not a total invention.
The Assyrians kings epics were also a mix of military accounts and an intent to give theological legitimation to their conquests.
Hi dr Ehrman!!
How does one make sense of acts10:9-16 ? Is it an implication of the unnecessary nature of kosher food laws?
Thank you!!
BE sure to summarize the passages you ask about so other readers will know what we’re discussing. But yes, the vision is meant to show Peter that now God does not look upon kosher food laws as important — although the implication Peter draws from it is that Jews who do keep kosher can now associate with believers in Jesus (Gentiles) who do not.
If the Masoretic Text was finalized during the Babylonian captivity, would that explain a more severe drive to maintain Jewish uniqueness and loyalty to… Jewishness by focusing on stories that would scare Jews from collaborating/assimilating with their captors?
THe Masoretes did not exist until about a millennium after that.
Hi Dr Ehrman!
Did Jesus ever indicate that by him being on earth and dying on the cross, that purification via law was unnecessary?
Thank you!!
Not direcdtly. But he did seem to suggest that God was less interested in purity and cult than in how one lived in relation to others.
Ah! So still being a good human being morally but not necessarily needing to maintain Covenantal purity?
THat is what is expected of gentiles who have come to believe in CHrist, yes.
I think Marcion may have been on to something re: the God of Scripture. Responses to Docetism and polytheism aside, do we have any writings from the heresiologists that commented on his exegesis of the atrocities committed in the Hebrew Bible, or provided apologies as such? I haven’t seen much in “Against Marcion” or really any of Theophilus books that specifically address the God-character issue – only the affirmation of monotheism in an Is. 45:5 sense. Or did they just chalk it up to “Holy Scripture” that cannot be questioned? Certainly, the disconnect between the dueling natures of God could not go unnoticed as Christianity became less Jewish and as we see even movements like the Albigenses into as late as the 13th century pick up the Marcion torch.
Has anyone identified if, and at what point, Jewish scholars began to look at these stories as a pock on their house? What was the second temple commentary and sentiment regarding such things?
I don’t know that there were ever any major objections to them — but maybe someone on teh blog can correct me. THe history of Jewish interpretation is not one of my strong suits. Not that I *have* many strong suits….
Bart I’m almost finished reading your textbook The Bible. Thank you for writing it. I am getting ready to buy your textbook The New Testament: A Historical Introduction…..and was wondering if it’s simply the same information as presented in the New Testament portion of The Bible or expanded with additional information. Thank you.
It’s a much condensed treatment of the same material. THe most fun and interesting bit to write was the Hebrew BIble and apocrypha stuff!
“Historically? I don’t think Moses existed”
You are entitled to you opinion.
However, billions believe he existed. This Thursday 19 of August is the Passover where both Jews and Muslims all over the world will fast in remembrance of the great event. There are many ancient books or documents about Moses. For example Moses’s brother Aaron resting place is in Mount Hor – Jabal Haroun. Perhaps, You could reject the cruel stories about Moses.
With great respect, I would humbly appeal to you to reconsider your stand.
As you probably know, for most of my life I had your view, and changed it only *after* I reconsidered my stand. In any event, teh fact that billions of people believe something has no bearing on whether it’s true or not.
Just a small correction, We Jews celebrated Passover starting in March and we don’t fast but refrain from eating leaven bread.
Watch the news tonight and see these biblical horrors happen right before your eyes. In a place called Afghanistan.
“If I can convince you to believe absurdities, I can persuade you to commit atrocities”. Voltaire paraphrasing an ancient Roman philosopher
“People are good and bad. Good people generally will do good things. Bad people bad things. But to get good people to do bad things, you need religion”. Steven Weinberg (3 May 1933 to 23 July 2021).
Violence and genocide in the name of God is a perennial skeleton in the Bible-believing Christian’s closet. The best response to I’ve ever read–and I’ve read a lot on this disturbing topic–is /Jesus Loves Canaanites: Biblical Genocide in the Light of Moral Intuition/ by Randal Rauser. Highly recommended!
To say that there is no evidence that Moses ever existed may be correct, but is there really any evidence that he didn’t? The doer-of-mighty-deeds-and-miracles Moses is certainly not historical, but I think we run the risk of falling into the trap of biblical minimalism if we simply consign a Bible character to the realm of fiction out-of-hand. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so I believe we shouldn’t be so quick to consign these stories of mytho-historical characters to the fiction section.
Is there any evidence that someone in the ancient world didn’t exist? I’d say probably not. I’m not sure what evidence there *could* be. What do you have in mind? (There’s plenty of evidence to suggest there was no exodus or wandering in the wilderness, or that the Law came from one indicvitual, etc. But that aint the same thing…)
There is some discussion of this in The Rise of Ancient Israel – lectures presented at a symposium sponsored by the Resident Associate Program, Smithsonian Institution, Oct. 26, 1991. The lecture “The Exodus from Egypt: Myth or Reality?” by Baruch Halpern is interesting reading, if you’re interested.
He’s a terrific scholar.
On a more personal level, I don’t have kids but I can’t imagine a greater horror than having to sacrifice your only child to God. And we don’t even know her name. The story of Jeptha and his daughter is one of the most horrifying tales of the Bible.
Actually, even Jesus supported this atrocity. In Mathew he says something to the affect that not one jot or tittle will be removed from the Torah until all is fulfilled, that those who obey it will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, and those who disobey will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. It’s been many years since I’ve read the Bible. But reading it cover to cover in my youth many times led me to abandon the faith of my youth. A faith based on the Bible being the infallible word of God. Had I been raised with a different outlook on the Bible (a metaphorical outlook) I may have remained a Christian.
Alas Christianity had a choice of believing in a perfect God or a perfect book. It appears they have chosen the latter, and look what it did to God’s reputation.
What’s the difference between Noam Chomsky’s effort pushing the radical agenda into our lives from the preposterous stories of the Bible?
Once you decide that language informs reality, there’s no way out.
I ain’t goin’ into a discussion of Chomsky here, but I’m not sure he would be alone in trying to push a radical agenda….
What about the irony that Moses’ wife, Zipporah, was the daughter of a Midianite priest? This whole discussion should really focus on the question of how we understand the Bible. I quote from a book I made available free on Apple Books, The View From Here: The Testimony of An “Old” Christian, where I wrote,
“Today, I study the scriptures more than I ever did, and enjoy that study more than ever, but I no longer take the same simple and unquestioning approach that I once did to understanding them. Rather than seeing the Bible as a guidebook with all the answers to the question “how should we then live?” (Ezekiel 33:10), I came to see it as a collection of writings which invites us into a conversation with God and other people that has been going on for millennia and which will continue into the indefinite future.”
Yup, that MIdianite wife sure creates a problem! Thanks for the quote.
Yup, that MIdianite wife sure creates a problem! Thanks for the quote.
Regarding stories of Moses and the deserving-of-punishment Egyptians, that seems to be the way the account is retold. But I recently discovered that a careful reading of the passages shows that the Egyptians reacted the way they did because God made them do it. Not as shocking as Numbers, but a really manipulative way for God to behave. More evidence that authors of the Hebrew Scriptures, to the modern mind, had a strange way of arguing that this was a God you would want to believe in.
Dr Ehrman
There are some apologists who say that the amalekites were from the Nephilim . This sounds like apologists are uncomfortable with the command to kill infants so they imagine that amalekite infants were another breed of humans .
Can you tell me if the bible describes the amalekites as tall human monsters and israelites as tiny humans in battle with them?
THey are probably referring to Num 13:33. But it’s not the Amalekites but the ANekites. ANd in any event, the explanation doesn’t work for the apologists, since the Nephiliim were destroyed in the flood. THe author of Numbers apparently didn’t know that tradition, but apologists have the accounts of Genesis 6-9 so they do! All the humans on earth, in THAT account, come from Noah; none from Nibiim.
This is just another example of inconsistencies in the bible unfortunately.
We see this numerous times, killing everyone and not allowing Israel to marry into other nations or give their daughters unto them to retain the purity of Israel.
And the books of Ezra and Nehemia where all the women and children who have married into the Jewish community are outcast so as not to anger Yahweh by breaking his commands as those before them.
Yet we have a short but Entire book dedicated to Ruth the Moabite, great grandmother of King David… seed line to Jesus.
So interracial marriage producing the Illustrious king was ok but for the rest of Israel it was not?
Or is this a case of Exodus 33:19
And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Right! Maybe inconsistency is a divine prerogative!
Bart
There is one particular story about Baal worshippers that involves people being herded into a barn or temple and then the building being set alight in order to kill them all.
Maybe its in Judges ?
Are you aware of this story ?
Not ringing a bell. But it certainly has happened plenty in religoius persecutions, one time involving Martin Luther and Jews….
I’m probably thinking of Judges 9
I remember reading this years ago and it occurred to me that this was similar to horrors perpetuated by the Nazis at the end of WW2.
Having said that , when read with the rest of the book of Judges it is nothing out of the ordinary.
If there is a God then lets hope he/she is not represented by some of the horrors in the OT.
47 And it was told Abimelech that all the men of the tower of Shechem were gathered together.
48 And Abimelech gat him up to mount Zalmon, he and all the people that were with him; and Abimelech took an axe in his hand, and cut down a bough from the trees, and took it up, and laid it on his shoulder: and he said unto the people that were with him, What ye have seen me do, make haste, and do as I have done.
And all the people likewise cut down every man his bough, and followed Abimelech, and put them to the stronghold, and set the stronghold on fire upon them; so that all the men of the tower of Shechem died also, about a thousand men and women.
This is so very interesting in light of the Taliban takeover and their Sharia Law. I hear Christian’s complain that we should destroy all of this terrible people. But, in essence, Christian’s are no better. They worship a God that comes from the same traditions that have led a group of men to come together as Taliban and now take over a country. Of course, certain Christians would like to see America become a “Christian Taliban” with Christian Sharia Law too!
It is a great mistake to assume too much of a religion by the founding documents. The Bible, being a huge work, contains multitudes – plenty of grist for multiple competing philosophies that all co-existed at the time. That’s assuming the documents are not flat ignored (fun fact: there’s a line in the Quran that forbids Muslims killing other Muslims. Feel free to raise that issue with any Taliban members. Or for a lighter example, the many American Protestants who firmly believed God banned alcohol intake around 1850-1970 or so.) So no, it’s pretty facile to say that Christians or Jews are “no better” because of crazy stuff like the story of the Midianites. The real question is how practitioners of the religion act.
Dear Professor Ehrman,
Thank you for the really interesting article. I’ve struggled with a lot of the stories in the Old Testament too – mainly some of the better known ones though as I haven’t yet read the whole bible – stories such as Abraham being told to kill Isaac, and the story of Job.
When people have said that Jesus came to show a softer, kinder side of God, I’ve often thought of the passage where Jesus said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”.
Do you think the statement means that he agreed with the scarier stories in the Old Testament?
Thank you very much:)
I”m not sure if that passage demonstrates that he did (he appears to be talking about the actual laws and prophecies, not the narratives), but it would be amazing if he didn’t agree with them, since he saw the BIble as scriptural truth from God.
I find two things interesting – probably more than two –
1. They also killed Balaam who prophesized in their favor in Chapter 24. Obviously Balaam told Balak how to beat the Israelites. ( Revelation 2:14 )
2. When they were dividing up the spoils, the men of war got some and the rest of the congregation got some. As the congregation was giving God His share vs 47 says that ” from the people of Israel’s half Moses took one of every fifty, both persons and beasts and gave them to the Levites who had charge of the tabernacle of the Lord.”
The persons would have been the young virgin girls. I wonder what happened to them? It’s only speculation but my first thought was human sacrifice. I guess they could be wives to the Levites? I guess we just don’t know.
Almost certainly not hunan sacrifice –that would have been forbidden. Sex slaves, though — that’s a real possibility.
I haven’t read all the comments, Professor, so I hope that this hasn’t yet been discussed. I’m of the opinion that the post exilic authors of these horror stories had as their motive the socio-political goal of unifying all of the various semitic tribes of the Sinai. No problem condemning Moabites and Midianites; they were long gone when the stories were written. The same mind set was at work, I believe, when Constantine legalized Christianity and demanded a theological consensus at Nicea, thus advancing the political cohesion of the Roman state. The Quran is perhaps the best example, as Islam rapidly and dramatically unified the tribes of Arabia. The political goals intended to be achieved by the creation and propagation of “religious” texts is a subject that seems to be overlooked. An examination of a given text with this perspective in mind may yield interesting conclusions.
Bart you discovered Rome was saved by miracles!
Listen to whats happening in afganistan / iran
This is how it happened in Rome..
https://www.spreaker.com/user/jennieallen/s8-ep25-bonus-fc3
For a more modern version of the same thing, there’s some pretty crazy anti-Jewish legends in medieval Europe that describe similar events except with the Jews as the Midianites and Christians as the new chosen people. It’s some form of foolish Christians trust Jews or treat them like people, something terrible happens (probably the Jew’s fault though, rather than direct divine punishment), the people repent, and by repent we mean “ethnically cleanse the local Jews.” God is happy and everyone lives happily ever after.
The only good news is that it appears as if many of the described incidents were aspirational, not factual. So the Holy Child of La Guardia or Dominguito del Val or the like are describing mythic examples of righteous kings doing the right thing by killing the Jews, as a hint to the rulers of the current day that at least oppressing the Jews would be a good idea. So it is with the story of the Midianites as well – it was probably intended to support oppression of a different group hundreds of years later.
Nietzsche makes the point that in antiquity “good” only meant winning and “bad” only meant losing. Compassion was reserved for in-group members, and outsiders deserved no quarter. The point was for you to visit horrors upon your enemy and not them to do so against you. Of course, national gods were part of this mix and vindicated their power while legitimating you allegiance to them when you won. If you lost, fault had to exist in your camp because if your god was actually weaker than your enemies’ god, then you’ve really got a problem in River City. In this context, it seems to me that the Midianite War had to come from a different source than the source who made Moses a part of a Midianite clan by marriage. The cut and past job sometimes got sloppy. My guess is the Jethro-Zipporah source would have been horrified at what some ancient bard imagined in the Midianite War that somehow made it into Numbers. Maybe the final editors even noticed the problem but were pot committed to it so they let it go.
When does your new book covering some of the topics of this post come out? Also I’ve read a few of your books. What is your most recent work?
I”m just now getting to th epoint of starting to write. It will probably be published in a year and a half? My most recent book is Heaven and Hell, one of my favorites (along with Misquoting Jesus)
Moses was a nationalist who used religion to gain his political ends…i.e. the best land on which to settle his people. The message of Jesus was completely different, and is one that resonates with human beings of all nationalities in every age.
In The Triumph of Christianity you show that in 400 years the number of Christians could have reached over 30 M. Compared to Islam it was slow. Have researchers looked at the rate of growth of Islam and other religions, and what caused people to convert?
I don’t understand the drop downs above the “POST COMMENT” tab.
I’m sure they have, but I don’t know what they have found. If you have any questions on the blog, just contact Support (hit the Help tab)
There is of course a good bit of sacred singing in the Hebrew Bible (and some dancing!); in the NT there is also references to singing before God. Our first pagan reference to Christian worship, in Pliny the Younger, mentions antiphonal singing to Christ as a God. But music almost certainly didn’t have teh centrality in worship that it does now, especially in evangelical circles where worship involves a virtual rock concert sometimes.
Dear Dr. Ehrman,
I have a question about worship that I’d like to discuss. It seems that in America, worship has become strongly associated with music. Even in smaller churches, having a worship director on staff to lead this area of ministry is a common priority. When asked, they often justify this emphasis on music by pointing to the Bible, claiming that singing together is a crucial aspect of worship. Some even go so far as to suggest that not singing during gatherings is sinful, citing biblical commands to sing together.
I’m curious to know if the Bible truly places such a significant emphasis on singing together, or if this emphasis might be more of a modern cultural development that churches have elevated to become the definitive definition of worship. Your insights on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Not a huge emphasis, but there are some references to it, esp Eph. 5:19