(2 votes, average: 4.00 out of 5)
Loading...Yesterday I talked about the significance of the Dead Sea Scrolls for understanding Jesus and the milieu out of which earliest Christianity grew. My basic point is that if Jesus was a Jew, then to understand him, you have to understand Jews in his world. And the Dead Sea Scrolls provide us valuable information to that end.
I am not saying that the Dead Sea Scrolls are representative of what all or even most Jews thought at the time. They clearly are not. If the “Essene hypothesis” is right – and it is the view held by the vast majority of the experts (among whom I do not number myself) (and among whom they do not number me either! ) – then the Scrolls were produced by a Jewish sect that had very distinctive views of its own that were not, in many respects, shared by outsiders. In particular, this was a group of Jews who insisted that the coming apocalyptic judgment, soon to arrive, would bring destruction not only to the hated Romans and the “obvious” enemies of God, but to many Jews as well, including the priests who were in charge of the Temple cult in Jerusalem.
FOR THE REST OF THIS POST, log in as a member. If you don’t belong yet, NOW”S YOUR CHANCE!!!
Following on the theme of Jesus and Scrolls, can you write a post on Paul and the Scrolls – how the Scrolls changed our understanding of Paul’s writings?
Now that’s something I haven’t thought as much about. Apart from the fact that Paul too was an apocalypticist …. I’ll have to think about it!
I have in mind how the Scrolls were instrumental in bringing about the New Perspective starting with E.P. Sanders (1977).
Ah — you’re on top of it already!
Bart,
Yesterday you said something that really made me think hard. Here is what you said:
“Jesus and his followers were Jews at about the same time that this community was thriving, and if you don’t understand Judaism in the days of Jesus, there is no way to understand Jesus. And if you don’t understand Jesus there is no way to understand the religion that came to be based…”
Wow! That hit me right between the eyes, and it meant so much to me that I apparently cogitated on it in my dreams. When I woke up, I burst of inspiration took control of my pen, and I wrote the following lyrics:
Meet my former idol
By me
Meet my former idol: the one I labeled Jesus.
He looked like all those pictures they painted just to please us.
His teeth were white and all in place.
His skin was fair; his hair was lace.
His hands were strong; his waist was slim.
His robe was clean; his beard was trim.
But he was of my own design:
A nodding friend who fell in line.
He never yelled; he never screamed.
He never glared or so it seemed.
Until I took some time one day,
To ask myself was he that way?
My golden idol fell apart.
The god I’d served was my own heart.
My ev’ry whim was his command.
My ev’ry wish was his demand.
And he had never questioned me.
My thoughts became his sole decree.
But in the end, my idol failed,
My fancied notions were derailed.
Who is Jesus? I came to ask,
And finding him became my task.
I knew nothing about his days,
Nor understood his people’s ways.
His age and culture made no sense.
The gulf between was so immense.
It stretched my mind to comprehend,
How foreign was this age-old friend.
I’m still looking for the one,
Whom they called God’s own son.
But now I know he won’t conform,
To expectations or the norm.
I realize these lyrics are a little rough. The meter is off in a few places. It’s probably a little bit trite in at least a few areas as well, but it still speaks to me enough to give it more polish, and then to go forward with it. Actually, a lot of what you’ve written and said has really taken a hold of me and made me think twice about my concepts of Jesus, God and Christianity. I can’t help but think that Jesus would defy our expectations of him if he were to return in the flesh today. I don’t think Christians would be less surprised than anyone else.
Finally, these lyrics speak to me because I believe Christians and non-Christians can appreciate them. I hope these lyrics will have a positive impact, especially after I am finished polishing them. Thank you.
I would like to ask a central question and apologize for it being so long. I certainly agree that the theology of Biblical inerrancy clearly cannot be supported by the evidence, but I would like to hear more about your view of the liberal Christianities. The argument made by such liberal Christians would go something like this:
The universe, or universes, could not have just sprung from nothing and the design of the universe, or multiverse, is too complicated for there not to have been a designer God. Furthermore, why would this creator/designer God bother to create us if He/She were not going to be personally involved with us? Indeed, the Old Testament is quite flawed in its description of a nasty, angry God who both kills people and orders the killing of people, but, in general, the Gospel accounts of Jesus are true. All the Gospels describe that Jesus was born, had disciples, taught about love, and died and that then there was an empty tomb due to a Resurrection. The incidental details of the life and death of Jesus were then changed by decades of oral transmission and the rest of the history of the early Christianities is basically as you have described it in you numerous books on the subject. The theodicy problem is a difficult one, but natural disasters are a byproduct of the powerful forces of nature that God created to keep the world turning and the good of nature outweighs the bad. The theology of the atonement does not make complete sense in that it describes God either torturing Himself/Herself or His/Her son, but it does illustrate that God loves the world. Christianities have done much harm, but they have also provided comfort and community and have powerfully changed lives making many humans kinder than they would have been otherwise. Being a searcher or wayfarer, I really don’t have an axe to grind here, but would like to hear your response to such an argument. Thanks, Ron
.
I guess I would say this is *one* view of some liberal Christians, but there are lots and lots of other views and variations. I personally have no problem with it. My only problem, when it comes to Christianity, is with conservative forms that stress the literal truth of the Bible….
Is it appropriate for members to reply to another member’s comment or question? I haven’t seen that happen.
Well, I’ll take a chance and keep it very short.
My view is not what was stated by Ron, but I consider myself a progressive Christian (though a bit agnostic at times. My view is a bit more simple but won’t get into details except to say that I am very much social justice oriented, very inclusive of those who are on different points along the path, and open to world religious perspectives with the understanding that no human has possession of the knowledge of God (the infinite). There’s more but I won’t go further.
Thanks so much for the response. Rather than it being something a child can understand, Christianity is really a complicated mess with questions about theodicy, atonement, the divinity of Jesus, and the “apocalyptic” prophet. You clarify a lot which helps so much although it is still a mess, but an interesting mess. Having attended every imaginable religious group in the Durham area, I agree that there are a lot of different liberal Christianities. Keep plugging away at it. I am now reading “Godless” by Dan Bsrker. He writes well about his escape from fundamentalism and the reactions he subsequently received about his change of view. I appreciate his arguments, but am not inclined to be a “crusader.” such as he.. His book reminds me of John Shelby Spong’s excellent autobiography. Have a good day. Ron
Ron…thank you for the book suggestion. I’ve been reading John Shelby Spong quite a bit lately as well as others who are more moderate as Rob Bell ( love his new book and the use of quantum physics in understanding God) and Scot McKnight. I do much writing on Facebook trying to put out a sane progressive Christian view and have a number of regulars with whom I discuss these issues. I live in a small rural town in Central California and the majority of churches are definitely fundamentalist pentecostal (even the United Methodist Church in this town). Bart speaks very well for the scholars position but many of us need to translate what the scholars are saying to the average church goer (who usually doesn’t care about what scholars say) and trying to communicate a reasonably accurate and balanced message is a huge challenge. Blessings, Todd
Sorry to jump in, but I also live in a small Central California town (Visalia); nice to “see” another Valley person on here 🙂
I like that you’re respectful rather than vitriolic towards we serious-minded Christians (your being married to a Christian probably necessitates this!). I think we deserve respect too… As you know, the likes of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas would not give any aid to the 20th century fundamentalists’ literalism over science. Not even B.B. Warfield would. It’s clear he was at the very least sympathetic to Darwin’s theory.
On the science front… If one reads Einstein, it’s clear he very much appreciated the historic man named Jesus of Nazareth, and it’s also equally clear that he allowed for (and even seems to believe in) some kind of deist creator. I don’t think science is in conflict with a Christian worldview (it wasn’t for Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Lemaitre, nor is it now for Francis Collins and Ian Hutchinson).
But you’re right, science is a problem for modern Christian fundamentalists, but it’s not for theists who also happen to believe there really is something to this Jesus of Nazareth character… something we believe transcends science (as Edward Witten says human consciousness itself does).
Thank you for your blog… I tell Christian fundamentalists they’re crazy for demonizing you… there’s a local pastor who says on the radio “don’t read Ehrman’s books!” He sounds like what Pope Urban VIII must have sounded like to Galileo… The fundies are so afraid of evidence… their faith is clearly too weak to deal with reality… I tell my fellow Christians to join your blog (even though I know they never will)… but if they wanted to learn about about early Christianity… I think your blog is easily one of the best values around…
Am I right in understanding that one of the Gospels says Jesus was about thirty when he began his ministry? If he was that old, isn’t it possible he’d spent some time in a community like the Essenes’, and left because there were areas in which he found himself disagreeing with them? I’m sure there’s no evidence he did that. I’m just thinking that if it can’t be ruled out, it might be a way of accounting for the “missing years.”
That makes me think of questions I should have asked before. What do scholars believe was the length of Jesus’s ministry? Catholics tend to believe it was three years…solely, I think, because the least reliable Gospel indicates he went to Jerusalem for three different Passovers. And what evidence is there for his ministry in Galilee having been “successful”? Is it certain he was well-known and had a significant following, even there?
Luke’s Gospel says he was “about thirty” when he started his ministry. I think it’s hard to know if Luke was just guessing. Even so, the most likely scenario, in my opinion, is that he worked in Nazareth until he started out; otherwise he wouldn’t be known as the local TEKTON (carpenter/stone mason?)
Length of ministry: John indicates that it must have been somewhat over two years (because ofthe mention of three Passover feasts). The others don’t say. If you were to read Mark carefully, it would seem that it was a matter of a few months. So, once again: who knows?!
Since as you say opposition to Temple practices was not unknown could this provide some reinforcement to the idea that there is a historical memory behind the episode of Jesus’ so-called “cleansing of the Temple” and perhaps was the reason Jesus was actually arrested and executed?
thanks
Yes, it makes it plausible; I think there are other grounds (independent attestation) for making it probable.
Again another stunningly clear and concise description of Jesus relation to the Essene community !!
I had long thought that Jesus and John the Baptist were closely related to that community (and may have actually been members) but what you present in paragraphs 7 and 8 is definitive, that Jesus was far away from Essene beliefs with regard to his association with the outcasts of society, precisely what still strongly attracts me to Jesus’ message and work and an ethic we need to apply in our present world.
Thanks again for making this clear in a simple and direct way.
“Last Temptation of Christ” implied strongly that Jesus spent some time with the Essenes-I think a lot of people took this as evidence. (Not to diminish the artistic achievement the movie represented.)
Hey Bart,
Did the Essenes ever mention Satan in their writings?
Did John the Baptist ever mention Satan?
Thanks
Jerry
John the Baptist: not in any surviving writings. Essenes, yes. See for an overview:
http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/newsandevents/charles-holman-honorary-lecture-series/Stuckenbruck_DemonsDSSOutline_Oct2009.pdf
YOUR QUOTE: “There are earthly, and cosmic, battles between the forces of good and evil. But these battles are to be brought to an end when God intervenes in the course of history and overthrows everything and everyone who is opposed to him, to give his good kingdom to those who are on his side. And this climactic moment in the history of the world was going to happen very soon”.
MY QUESTION: What is it about human nature, that causes human beings to behave in this insecure manner? My understanding is; Human beings have been apocalyptic for ages and ages? WHY?
I think apocalyptic thought is very historically and culturally specific, going back to Maccabean times in early Judaism. Lots of good literature on this!
P.S. IN my previous email, I forgot to say something about the “apocalyptic” Jesus. I guess, even though I have read both Schweitzer and you on the subject, I don’t really know enough to argue about that point, but with your background as a debater it might be interesting to see you take the pro side of the Liberal Christianity debate. What would you say as a debater arguing for liberal Christianity?.
As I said, there is, in my view, not *one* liberal Christainity but many, many different kinds of liberal Christianity. I myself don’t subscribe to them because I don’t believe in God. Some very liberal Christians don’t either!
Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity
by James D. Tabor (Hardcover)
Your thoughts on this author, and book if possible, please.
Jim is a good friend and I think he is very smart, creative, and interesting. I’m sorry to say that I haven’t read the book yet!
It is curious that the oldest copies of any writings of the culture that was called the “people of the book” are the Dead Sea scrolls that date to at most the 4th century BCE. Whereas many of the surrounding cultures, from Mesopotamia to Egypt, have originals extant – as hieroglyphics or cuneiform on clay tablets – that are several millennia older than the DSS.
How do theological scholars – Judaic and Christian – deal with this oddity?
It’s because of the copying practices adopted the Masoretes and their successors among the Jews. They came to be so precise in their copying, that as a practice they destroyed the copies being copied.
I don’t think that either Jesus or James were part of the group at Qumran. However, I do think that there are ties between James and some of the members of the Qumran community. A little known story in Acts tells of Paul bragging to James as to the number that he has converted. James replies that they too in Jerusalem have had great success and notes how many of the priests are followers. Unfortunately the writer of Acts managed to write James out of the story of the early followers in Jerusalem. However, we do have significant information from Josephus and the Psuedoclementines. I do not remember having read anything in your books about the Temple Wall affair. In a brief summary, the nobles had built terraces on their palaces so that they could recline while entertaining their guest and overlook the priests making the sacrifices on the altar. The temple priests built a wall to block their view. The nobles were infuriated and demanded that the High Priest have the wall torn down. However, there were sufficient priests involved that the High Priest sent a delegation to Nero to get his permission to tear down the wall. However, the priests also sent a delegation to Rome to meet with Popea, Nero’s wife. The priests prevailed and the wall was to stay. At this point the story takes an interesting twist. The High Priest recognizing that James has a significant following among the priests, asks him to address them and arranges for him to stand on the Temple parapet to make his speech. Unfortunately for the High Priest, James takes the opportunity to remind the assembly that Jesus will soon return with the armies of heaven to defeat the Romans. A riot ensues as the High Priest’s police try to quieten James. As a result of this event the High Priest takes the first opportunity to have James stoned. I believe that it is after this even that many of the disgruntled priests leave the Temple and gather with those at Qumran. If this is correct then there definitely are ties between the Dead Sea scrolls and the early beginnings of Christianity.
Fascinating, if this story holds water. Would suggest that Jesus would have had a minority constituency of priests in his corner, who agreed with some of his end time views, and the gospels’ depiction of crowds with a unanimous voice preferring Barabbas not the scene at all (Luke 23). And why wouldn’t they have given him that “life line” to be banished to live with his more like-minded peeps not so far away, if the Chief Priest and other priests had any say at all? (making Herod and Pilate becoming more friendly and both responsible and working together also unlikely) I can see the Romans looking for messiahs to make a public example out of should a Judas deliver one. But why wouldn’t Jewish leadership, again, if they had any say at all, not prefer retiring Jesus to a ready made community (permanent )retreat, rather than encourage or be complicit with him being crucified with a “King of the Jews” sign over his head? The former scenario would seem more plausible if James ever was that thick with apocalyptic priests a short time later (and made pro-Jesus second coming speeches), or such priests had any influence.
I”m not sure I’m following all of your comments, but as to the last bit, I don’t think there’s any chance that the historical James had any connection with priests in Jerusalem.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was trying to accept Kidron’s remarks about Josephus seriously about James.
My understanding (please correct me if i’m wrong) is that while Josephus was aware of both Jesus and the community at Qumran, Philo of Alexandria apparently was not aware of Jesus (at least he does not mention Jesus). Does Philo mention the Essenes or Qumran? If he does, is that because he would more likely know of such a large group of apocalytics (rather than just one lone itinerant preacher like Jesus)? Thanks-
Yes, Philo mentions the Essenes. He probably doesn’t mention Jesus simply because Jesus was not an important figure in his day and Philo probably had never heard of him.
Reading over your blogs on the Dead Sea Scrolls for a class I am leading, I noted that you don’t consider yourself a proponent of the “Essene” hypothesis. Could you tell me who you think inhabited Qumran? I like giving my class lots of options.
Thank you.
Actually, I do hold to the Essene hypothesis. So much so I’m reluctant to cast doubt on it by calling it a “hypothesis”!
Hi Bart! Wanted to add some more questions and gleanings regarding Nasaroean Essenes, and Essenes related to the Qumran location.
I think the Qumran location was a meeting place, given new research.
Maybe with a few custodians, but not a community. What are your thoughts on its function?
If so, some texts might have two purposes that were less considered before:
1. Event-based
rules
2. hasty-jeez-Romans stashing of food & re-copied historical documents of traditions that were no longer in common practice.
My comment is focused on event-based rules (be extra pure for that yearly extra-holy occasion!)
There are 1000s of food storage vessels, but little sign of habitation in Qumran.
If it’s like a festival – 1000s of people – you’d maybe make stern (tragedy of the commons) requirements that have people clean up to a uniform standard and also take their wastes elsewhere. High hygiene protocols that only people traveling from aaaall over would need.
News of these protocols could become exaggerated, maybe by seeing copies of Qumran texts. Like Roman historians writing on Early Christians mixing genders after dark. Or a Messiah becoming a one-and-only divinity.
Maybe Essenes were more travelly than other Jews. Do you think the Therapeutae were Essene or related?
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-dead-sea-scrolls-site-mystery-solved-qumran-jerusalem-1.10155326
There is a lot of scholarship devoted to the Qumran community by people who have studied it intensely. You might be interested in the book by my colleauge Jodi Magness, The Archaeology of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, for starters. It is an authoritative account that might help one think through the issues, by one of the true experts.
Essenes can travel anywhere there are other Essenes and receive free food, clothing and accommodation.
To me this is likely the magic *snaps fingers* of feeding the multitudes. The Essene Nasareans are purpose-built to bring in the Messiah. He’s the Queen Bee.
My Sufi community (Circle of Friends) that I once lived in could come up with *snaps fingers* a free feast for any of us and all our friends, anywhere from So Cal to the Washington Coast, with a phone call.
They delight in spontaneity. Once someone came up with the idea of a 24?-course meal for Christmas — on Christmas Eve.
~50 participated. Courses went through the night. I think I made it to course 11. It was at a ~200-acre site in the wilderness of Boulevard, CA, where we had much bigger gatherings.
And purity rules. I’ve gone 5 days without solid food while dunking in ice-cube chonked water every 4 hours.
Much of what happened with CoF could seem like miracles. And few know who they are.
If those 1000s of vessels are bread-baking vessels (especially if others are found by Mount Carmel) then, well, things like cura anonnae and declaring divinity seemed to work for Caesar, right?
Thank you for responding to me, Bart. I just downloaded the Amazon sample of Jodi’s Qumran work right now (might go deeper).
I have been floating with a bit of happiness since your response, because I love how rational and chill you are. I tried to be less effusive before thanking you, but no luck.
1
Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS): Follow a correct teacher
Jesus movement also follows a correct teacher
2
DSS – Teacher and Messianic until two Messiahs: a priest and a king
Jesus Movement: Teacher until the Son of Man
3
DSS: You will be saved by your faith in the covenant-bringing and suffering Teacher of Righteousness who connects to Isaiah 53.
Jesus Movement: You will be saved by your faith in the covenant-bringing and suffering Teacher of Righteousness who connects to Isaiah 53.
The Thanksgiving Hymns 10-17 were actually written by the DSS Teacher.
He applies Isaiah 53 to himself.
At a later time, Isaiah 53 is taken from the Teacher of Righteousness and applied to Jesus as if it were only his, first.
4
DSS – The Community Rule: Prepare the way in the desert
John the Baptist: Preparing the Way in the wilderness
Bart:
Doesn’t that suggest that Jesus was an Essene?
Steve Campbell author of Historical Accuracy
seeing what Dr. James Tabor said (2024) about Jesus and the DSS
It suggests that in constructing a composite character of historical fiction, Jesus, something was, or some things were lifted from the DSS.
Not for me, no. The differences between Jesus’ apocalyptic perspective and it’s implications for life are far too significant. (the fact that later Xns applied Isa 53 to Jesus doesn’t have any bearing with where Jesus himslef started out). I think the problem with reconstructing hisotry is that we are always tempted to take a the several sources that survive out of hundreds that once existed and try to figure out how to connect their dots by direct correlation, rather htan realize that there were lots of groups with some similarities and lots of differences (rather than, say, just two or three groups)
Steefen
“Later Christians applied Isaiah 53 to Jesus,” you say, Bart?
Google, did Jesus refer to Isaiah 53?
Jesus directly quotes and applies Isaiah 53:12 to himself in Luke 22:37. Mark 10:45, quoted above, is not a direct quotation of Isaiah 53, but alludes to it with the theme of serving “many” through death. These two passages provide examples of Jesus’ self-understanding as the servant of Isaiah 53.
– Wikipedia entry: Isaiah 53
So, relating Isaiah 53 to the DSS teacher and to Jesus, the teacher, happened before later Christians applied Isaiah 53 to Jesus–and it does have a bearing where the Jesus narrative begins, relying not just on Q and Oral Tradition. Is it not textual criticism for there to be an intertextual.bible website that compares gospels to DSS?
https://intertextual.bible/text/4q521.2-luke-7.22
Second, one cannot look to hypothetical other groups when there are other ties to the DSS community group.
5
The DSS, Jesus, and Paul want an individual to become a child of light rather than a child of darkness.
6
The DSS (150 years before Jesus) and the biblical Jesus wanted community members to become members of a new covenant.
Add Reply