(12 votes, average: 4.83 out of 5)
Loading...In my new book Armageddon, which saw the light of published day just a few days ago, I talk about where the “rapture” came from, the evangelical belief that Jesus was soon to return to snatch his followers out of this world before a horrible time of Tribulation hits the earth.
That too will be the subject of a lecture, with Q&A, that I will be giving (unrelated to the blog) on April 15. For information about THAT, go to my website http://bartehrman.com/courses
I left off yesterday with a bit of a tease, indicating that the following passage, one of the main prooftexts for a rapture, is in fact not about the rapture at all. Here’s the passage, and then my explanation:
For we tell you this by a word of the Lord: we who are living, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not go before those who sleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God—and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are living, who remain, will be taken up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15–18)
How can this not be referring to the rapture?
To begin with, it is important to read the passage, and all passages of the Bible, in context—a point I will be beating like a drum throughout this book. Paul certainly did believe Jesus would be returning from heaven and it would be soon. The key, though, is to understand Paul’s explanation of what will actually occur at that second coming.
Throughout his writings Paul insists that Christ will
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After I escaped Fundamentalism and became an Episcopalian I often wondered why the “Rapture” was never mentioned in any sermons or discussions in the Episcopal Church. I guess I know why now.
I can’t find any info on your April 16 lecture on the rapture. Is the link correct? It just isn’t there as far as I can tell.
Yoiu can find it here: https://ehrman.thrivecart.com/left-behind/
What time of day?
You’ll find all the information on the site, I believe.
Well, not on the site, but in the mail I got this tuesday it says that it will begin at 3 pm, April 15.
Dear Dr. Ehrman – I’m about halfway through Armaggedon, and – WOW! I’ve enjoyed everything of yours that I’ve read, but this book is exceptional. Can a work of Biblical scholarship be a page turner? Hell yes! Thanks again for doing what you do, and for how you do it.
Thanks!
Coming from a Mormon background, the concept of “rapture” was taught differently to me in my youth. We typically didn’t use the word, so I wasn’t looking at those scriptures with the same evangelical eyes others muggt have been. We were taught that thosevwirthy of the first resurrection, living or dead, would be caught up to meet Him and be part of the Saints marching in to bring the mellenial kingdom. We were not taught the concept of an escape from tribulation, but rather a protection while we were in it.
The other day, I spent a couple of hours racking my brain trying to figure out how Paul in 1 Thess wasn’t saying the saints would ve a part of the marching army bringing in the kingdom. Turns out, I didnt have the same fundamentalist eyes you were arguing against. I have my own blinders to be sure, and they will be manifested later.
Professor Ehrman. After Jesus returns, the battle of Armageddon is over and Jesus is victorious. Evil is vanquished forever. Everyone is judged, living and dead and all of the prophesies are fulfilled. In other words, the race is over and we have reached the finish line. Will those that are judged worthy spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus or will they live in a new Garden of Eden here on planet earth for eternity?
They live in the New Jerusalem, the giant golden city here on earth.
Is there any scripture that speaks about those that are supposedly in Heaven until that time being brought down to the New Jerusalem?
Yes, the martrys are up there in Revelation 6; and in Paul’s later letters he appears to think he’ll be there after death and before Christ’s return (Phil 1; 2 Cor. 5)
They live in the New Jerusalem, the giant golden city here on earth.
I’ll play Devil’s Advocate, regarding the ultimate dwelling place of the faithful.
What does Jesus mean when he says “I tell you the truth, today you will be with-me in paradise.” (Luke 23:42-43).
Also, Jesus says, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from here.” John 18:36.
Also, Jesus says “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” John 14:2.
And Paul says “For we know that if our earthly dwelling, a tent, should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made by human hands, eternal in heaven.”
And by the way, where has Jesus been for the past 2,000 years?
Yup, different authors have different views. And none of them thought Jesus would still be gone 2000 years later….
6 days to create the Universe, humankind, vegetation & animal kingdom …
deism, right?
Bart,
I fully agree that the NT clearly says that Jesus taught that he may die, but he will return in the near future after that, while Paul is still alive, and all evil will be eliminated so the followers of Jesus can can now continue life on earth free of being oppressed by non-believers. Jesus was wrong, which is unfortunate but not a sin for a human. I believe Jesus was a holy man with a crucially important message to all people: “The primary instruction from God that Jesus taught was: “Help anyone who is in need,” but he was not God or even one-third of God (which was not an official and widely accepted Christian belief — but erroneous and without any valid foundation, in my opinion — until much later.
Bill Steigelmann
“These New Testament authors who speak of Christ’s return thought it was to happen in their own day.”
The fact that they thought it would happen in their own day does not mean they were right about the timing of his return. In fact, they made many assumptions about things that were wrong assumptions. They asked, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.” For people to assume Jesus was wrong about returning –because he has not yet returned–is mistaken. Peter said, “… in the last days mockers will come … saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? “
Hi Bart, As far as I can see, you pose a strong argument against the doctrine of the “pretribulation rapture,” but I do not see you arguing against the competing and less popular doctrine of the “post-tribulation rapture.” Do you also argue against the authentic Paul teaching about a post-tribulation rapture?
There’s no place in teh Bible that refers to a rapture of any kind.
The idea of a rapture, when believers will be taken up before the great 1000 year tribulation is a recent idea. It was invented by John Nelson Darby in 1830 (I think). Prior to that, no Christian denomination taught it and most likely did not interpret Thessalonians or Revelation to support such a doctrine. I’ll go further and add that the Left Behind series of books by Lehaye revived the idea, one which was not prominent amongst fundamentalists until then
You’re right about Darby (in 1830 he started the Plymouth Brethren, but announced his doctrine in 1833 I believe). But fundamentalists have always been big on the rapture. It was a huge deal in the 1970s when I came on board.
And still is a “huge deal” among my family of dispensationalists. Moreover, it is argued up and down on the internet, using cherry-picked quotations from a host of church fathers, medieval scholastics and reformation figures, without the slightest attempt to contextualize their comments or theologies.
I’ve never really thought about the rapture stuff at all since, for me personally, I have never been a conventionally religious person. Like most people I have heard about the rapture ideas coming from popular Christianity. So now I have some understanding of where these ideas allegedly came from, but I am a bit confused about the context. So, my question concerns Matthew 24:31: in the context of Matthew 24, what does the angels gathering the elect from the four winds mean? Can it be argued that the people who are “taken” are the ones gathered by the angelic beings. Perhaps the context is clearer in the original Greek, but the English seems to me to be somewhat ambiguous.
There’s a fascinating article by Murray et al via Pubmed (The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered, J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci, 2012). While it is easy to throw around the schizophrenia label, the idea of Paul having a form of temporal lobe epilepsy is intriguing: “Paul does, however, manifest a number of personality characteristics similar to the interictal [between seizure] personality traits of Geschwind, suchas deepened emotions, increased concern with philosophical, moral and religious issues; increased writing[!], often of religious or philosophical themes; and, possibly, hyposexuality[!].”
Also a fascinating article by Edwards et al (On the Physical Death of Jesus, JAMA, 1986) discussing the medical aspects of scourging and events of crucifiction, and the physiology of how his life expired: “Clearly, the weight of historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted and supports the traditional view that the spear, thrust between his right ribs, probably perforated not only the right lung but also the pericardium and heart and thereby ensured his death (Fig 7).” They suggest the water described in John after piercing his side was pleural and pericardial effusions that developed in association with acute heart failure.
Excruciating death!
I will look up both articles. Thanks.
What…two whole blog posts on the Rapture, saying it does not appear in the Bible…and no discussion of the Greek verb harpazō and its meaning in I Thess 4? The verb that is used in this phrase: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds…”
harpazō:
1) to seize, carry off by force;
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Its meaning is that of being snatched away by force (in this case, out of harm’s way), as opposed to meaning going out to greet someone and come back with them.
And no discussion of its use elsewhere in the NT? Like when Paul was “caught up” (harpazō) to the third heaven.
And Matt 24 (one taken and one left) is not a Rapture passage. It’s a 2nd coming passage, where one wants to be left to go into the Milennial Kingdom, not taken for judgment. When Jesus refers to gathering by the angels he is paraphrasing Isaiah 27:13:
Did you know that the word Bible is not in the Bible? Does that nullify the concept of a Bible?
I’m not sure what you’re objecting to. I’m agreeding that the believers in Jesus who are still alive are said to be snatched up to meet him in the air. But it’s not what modern people mean by rapture. They are not being removed before a period of Tribulation on earth.
I was saying that it IS a rescue, rather than “a going out to greet and come back with,” which action is initated by the greeters who go out. The harpazō, is a snatching away, uninitated by anyone on earth, and they are snatched up to “stay up” until the 2nd coming.
I realize that I didn’t emphasize my point that it was not a “going out to meet,” as I spent most of the words on the meaning of harpazō.
Your quote:
“Jesus is not coming to provide an escape for his followers but “sudden destruction” for his enemies. Then why are his followers floating up to meet him?…
When the long-awaited king and his entourage approached, the city would send out its leading figures to meet and greet him before escorting him back to their town with great fanfare.”
He is the king coming to visit his own people, who will go out to greet him. But this escort will not remain in the air any more than, on earth…”
Thanks for the clarification. I don’t see any suggestion in the text that they are being snatched away for a long period of tribulation on earth before the second coming, and I don’t know of any Christian interpreter of Thessalonians or any other New Testament book from the early church or indeed, in the church at all until the early 19th century, who thought so. What in the text makes you think Jesus is taking his followers out before the Tribulation? (Including those who were already dead?)
Too often verses that support the idea of a rapture are taken out of context. “Rapturists” will quote Matthew 24:40-41 as biblical proof of the idea while leaving out the previous verses Matthew 24:36-39 which give a much clearer picture of what Jesus meant. Noah and his companions on the ark were “lifted up” while all others were left behind. I asked a friend of mine, a firm believer in the rapture if he saw it as an in-between coming of Jesus, his first being when he walked the earth and the third one being the one promised in Matthew 25. Still waiting for an answer
Yup! I talk about the verse in my book. You’ve nailed it.
From my Jewish Studies at Moody–just as the first coming was not just one event, the 2nd coming will be several events. The first four feasts of the Lord were literally fulfilled at the first coming (Passover, Firstfruits, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost). The Bible says Jesus was the the Passover Lamb, firstfruits from the dead (rose on Firstfruits), was sinless (Unleavened Bread), and sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (Shavuot).
In like manner the last three feasts will be literally fulfilled at the second coming (three events). The Rapture will be the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets (hence the “Last Trump,” which was an idiom that referred to the Feast of Trumpets). The second coming will occur on Yom Kippur, when Israel will be rescued and believe in Yeshua. The feast of Tabernacles will be fulfilled by the wedding feast of the Lamb, with the wedding ceremony having taken place earlier in Heaven after the Rapture. Jesus and his new wife return to earth (“come out of their wedding chamber”) and he will defeat his enemies, and then on the Feast of Tabernacles, the Messianic Kingdom will be inaugurated.
So my understanding of dispensationalism is that while Christ will return in the Rapture to take away living (and dead) Christians up to that point, there has to be some mechanism for the salvation of Israel, namely the Jews, as promised in the Old Testament. So you have to have this period between when God takes the born-again Christians to heaven and when those “left behind”, particularly the Jews, are given a chance to repent and be saved before the Final Judgment. So I think the larger question, beyond the nature of any “rapture” is what the role of Jews and Israel are in Christian visions of the End Times. Are they merely another group of unbelievers who will be condemned if they don’t convert, or are they always God’s chosen who will be saved (that is, functionally, turned into Christians) no matter what?
I haven’t looked at your new book on Revelations yet, Bart, but was wondering if there’s a deeper dive there into dispensationalism more broadly and it’s *enormous* impact on American Christianity? I would love to see a broader, critical, discussion of this theological paradigm.
It depends which Christian or book you refer to. IN Revelation itself 144,000 Jews will be saved in the end.
Hello, Dr. Ehrman. Please forgive my off-topic question.
I’m reading “Armageddon,” but also listening to the audio version of Stephen Greenblatt’s “The Swerve.”
In chapter 3, he talks about the Villa of the Papyri at Herculaneum and its well-stocked library full of charred scrolls. The villa is thought to have belonged to Julius Caesar’s father-in-law, Lucius Calpurnius Piso, during the first century BCE, long before the eruption of Vesuvius.
Greenblatt pictures Piso entertaining a group of erudite friends in the villa’s garden:
“In the years leading up to the assassination of Julius Caesar, philosophical speculation was hardly the only available response to social stress. Religious cults originating in far-off places like Persia, Syria, and Palestine began to make their way to the capital, where they aroused wild fears and expectations, particularly among the plebs. A handful of the elite — those more insecure, or simply curious — may have attended with something other than contempt to the prophecies from the East, prophecies of a savior born of obscure parentage, who would be brought low, suffer terribly, and yet ultimately triumph. But most would have regarded such tales as the overheated phantasies of a sect of stiff-necked Jews.”
But there were no such prophecies, were there?
Ah, I’m not sure what he’s referring to.
You quote 1 Thessalonians 4:15–18 where Paul says “Then we who are living, who remain, will be taken up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” This, you believe, refers, in context, not to the saved being whisked up to heaven but rather to their going out to meet Jesus only to return with him to earth where he will rule.
However, regardless of whether these folk are ultimately heavenward or earthward bound, the picture that Paul seems to paint is one where people will be rising into the sky. Therefore, does this not suggest that in some measure the scenario envisaged by the ‘rapture’ believers will nevertheless take place?
Nope, for reasons I explain in the post. The rapture refers to Jesus taking his followers out of the world prior to the seven-year tribulatio on earth. That’s not what 1 Thess. 4 is tlaking about, as can be seen simply by reading it in its context (esp. ch. 5!)
This is also in I Thess chapter 5, which Dr. Ehrman cites as the context he believes proves believers are not being taken out of the world.
I Thess 5:8-11
“But since we belong to the day, let us stay sober, putting on trust and love as a breastplate and the hope of being delivered as a helmet. 9 For God has not intended that we should experience his fury, but that we should gain deliverance through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, 10 who died on our behalf so that whether we are alive or dead, we may live along with him. 11 Therefore, encourage each other…” — Complete Jewish Bible
Hey Bart. Just an FYI. It turns out that Simon & Schuster aren’t planning on releasing your book in Australia. So I guess all of us down under will just have to glean bits and pieces from your many interviews. 😁
In some English speaking countries a different publisher has the publication rights — in England, e.g., it’s One World. I’m not sure what the situatio is down there. I’ll look into it.
I’ve asked if there’s some other publisher doing it — usually there is for international books — but don’t know just now/yet.
talking about the return of Jesus according to Jesus himself and Paul, The return could have been at any moment in their own lifetime…. And some of us who are believers still perpetuate the imminent return, I know scholars are divided on 2nd Thessalonians but most evangelicals accept it as cannon and it seems to pose a problem for the imminent return, it explicitly says that The day of the Lord will not happen unless the falling away happens first and the man of lawlessness sets himself up in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be god…um there is no temple! it was destroyed in 70 AD which brings me to a question, what do scholars say about the dating of second Thessalonians ? was it before or after the temple’s destruction? if it was after why does he mention the temple? And if it was before this definitely seems to be a failed prediction,.. I almost pointed this out to the preacher when he was speaking about the Lord’s imminent return from 1 Thessalonians 5.. this may not be the case but it seems to me there’s disagreement between the two thessalonian letters
You write ” it is the people who are “taken” who are destroyed; those “left behind” are the ones who are saved.”
What is your basis for deciding this? It looked like Noah’s people were taken and the flood consumed all those left behind. Matthew is not definitive on this issue. And, in any case, does it really matter so long as the “saved” people are saved at the rapture?
Read the Matthew passage carefully and you’ll see. In v. 39: who was taken away? The saved or the destroyed?
I think that the 2nd Coming like the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven is within us. It’s Christ’s Spirit growing and coming within us and bringing us to our true selves. It is happening and has been happening since Christ first walked this earth. It’s also creating a new way of living and seeing things and making and remaking old ways of looking at and doing things go away or be “destroyed”.
One doesn’t need the bible to do any of this. One also doesn’t need a church hierarchy. One just needs the faith and the Spirit of Christ and God within one. No book or hierarchy required.
Thanks for breaking down the book for us. It can be both a help and a hinderance to building a better world. Thanks
Got it. We don’t want to be “taken/taken away.”
Dear Bart,
I too am missing out on the latter half of a number of posts. I go to “Help”. Then “Support FAQ” and “Contact Support” pop up. But when I try to click on these they disappear from the screen. Then what automatically pops up are listings for “About DR. Bart Ehrman”, “Question for Bart”, “Facebook Page”, “Bart’s main website” etc. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, JonA
Ugh! Sorry ’bout that. Write a query to [email protected] and Diane will figure it out for you.
As a recovering fundamentalist, I find your interpretation quite likely the right one.
I can’t help but marvel at how the formative power of emotional sermons and songs create glasses that we wear through which certain interpretations, though wrong, seem so absolutely obvious and final to us. I can remember dismissing that niggling little voice in my head that said, “but if thats true then what about this?” Might there be some instinct inside us that determines social conformity within a valued peer group of higher importance than logical coherance?
Oh yeah! It’s a well-studied phenomenon among psychologists. It’s expecially strong in religious communities.
Even when I was a born-again Christian, I had a lot of trouble accepting that Jesus would essentially commit a mass killing when he returned. How could something like that be sanctioned by a good God? It used to cause me a lot of anxiety and was one of the many things that led me to question my faith and eventually lose it.
I never really appreciated just how peculiar and flimsy the standard evangelical preacher approach — of selecting single verses out of context from 66 different books and chaining them together as a single “prophecy” — is before reading some of your explanations of “where did this doctrine come from” on this blog.
Imagine taking a book in which everything is actually SUPPOSED to be prophetic, like Nostradamus, and selecting individual lines (not whole quatrains) from throughout the work, and showing that they can be strung together to be highly descriptive of say, “At the turning of the millennium plus twenty, disease, then followed a War on the Steppes”
And trying to present that as evidence of Nostradamus’s prophetic power.
You mean some of these? Yeah, these really convince me that the Old & New Testament had just random, unrelated prophecies about the end.
Jeremiah 30’s time of Jacob’s trouble (Israel’s trouble)
Daniel 9’s He shall confirm a covenant for one seven (of years)
Matt 24’s For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time; then Jesus refers to Daniel and what happens in the middle of the 7
Revelation’s 3 1/2 years (two halves adding to 7 years)
Ezek 38’s In the latter years you (Israel) will be gathered out of many nations to the mountains of Israel (1948)
Isaiah 13’s Behold, the day of the LORD comes
Joel 2’s dreadful day of the LORD.
Malachi 4’s before the awesome day of the Lord.
Zephaniah 1’s For the day of the Lord is near;
Amos 5’s who long for the day of the LORD!
I Thess 5’s the day of the Lord will come like a thief
II Thess 2’s asserting the day of the Lord has already come.
II Peter 3’s the day of the Lord will come like a thief,
Acts 2’s the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord