Is there an I in me?
For several years now, I have been increasingly fascinated by the brain as an organ, and by consciousness as a phenomenon. These are not topics you can figure out simply by taking some time to muse about them – although I strongly advocate taking time to muse about them and putting some effort into musing about them seriously. There are, of course, incredibly smart people out there with massive expertise who know and understand things beyond the ken of us mere mortals. But even they haven’t figured out the brain (or even close; but whoa do they know a lot about it). Or consciousness: even though, in this case, a number of people – usually philosophers – certainly claim they have, or at least that they *basically* have.
It is worth reading what these folk have to say when they write simplified versions of their views in trade books designed for the rest of us who ain’t on their level. And these versions can indeed get us to think deep thoughts – however we do that (a mystery of the brain: how does thinking *work* exactly?) – when we decide to do so (a mystery of consciousness: how do we as material creatures decide anything?). Let me point out here at the beginning that the issues are, well, a bit more complicated than saying: it’s ‘cause we got a brain and we got free will! There’s been a lot of ink spilled on the seemingly-irresolvable “mind-body” problem for a very long time.
Let me tell you how I puzzle over it personally. Then I’d be happy to know what you think.
My personal dilemma is based on what I think I know and what I think about what I think I know. I don’t know as much as I’d like to know and some of what I know is almost certainly wrong. But I don’t think it’s wrong. As with most humans, what I think I know I think is right. Otherwise, I would think something else and think that was right.
What I think I know is that each of us is a material object, necessarily, then, made up of matter. We have bodies that house organs that are made out of tissues that comprise cells. OK, so far so good. I’m an average kinda guy, so I probably have about 30 trillion cells in my body. These cells all live and die (though none of them knows they are living– and if none of our parts knows we’re alive, how do *we* know we’re alive?), and are made up of other constituent parts, contain our DNA, etc. All of these things – organs, tissues, cells, DNA, etc. – are made up of molecules which are made up of atoms and …. and it’s turtles (i.e., material) all the way down.[*]
Including my brain. Again, as an average mortal, my brain has something like 80-100 billion of those cells (neurons) which are all connected to one another through their synapses. Lots of synapses, for each neuron. I probably have a thousand trillion synapses that fire, or are supposed to fire (most of them not firing enough, or well enough, as far as I’m concerned). That’s, well, 1,000,000,000,000,000 synapses. These are distributed throughout the brain in different lobes and parts of lobes which all have different functions.
Sticking to the very basics: the brain controls our bodily functions – both unconscious (your heart beats and your liver produces bile without your deciding to make it happen) and conscious (you decide to go to the store, scratch your nose, or read a blog post). The brain also interprets the data received by our sense organs (Did you hear that explosion? Look at that rainbow! Damn—that burner is *hot*!). The brain can also perform an array of unusual cognitive tasks: it can think, remember, analyze, apply logic, do math, etc. It can remember what has happened to you before, what you’ve learned before, and how to do something physically (swim; ride a bike; hit a backhand), assuming you ever did it before. It can decide what to do next and balance the options. It houses your winsome or not so winsome personality. It is the center of your emotions, moods, and feelings. (I’m not saying other body parts are uninvolved.)
Other organs have multiple and life-essential functions, but the brain’s role in our existence is sans pareil. My point, though, is that it’s a physical organ. Everything in it is physical, down to the neurons, synapses, cells, molecules, and – and keep going. If the physical organ of the brain is physically altered, so are you. If a part gets damaged you can lose your sight, hearing, or other senses; you can lose your ability to speak or move; you can experience a radical and permanent change in personality, to the extent that you will no longer be recognizable as who you are/were (think Phineas Gage); you can have irreversible mood or emotional changes; you can lose your memory; you can lose your ability to generate new memories; you can lose your ability to make decisions; you can lose your ability to *think*.
All this and more can happen if the matter in your brain changes. My view (starting many years ago, when I began taking Phineas Gage seriously) is that everything we think of as part of our “inner” being – our cognitive functions and abilities, our personalities, our emotions and moods, our memories, our abilities to decide, our thoughts, and even MORE: our views, perspectives, understandings of the world, values, beliefs, and on and on – all these things are rooted in the *matter* in our brain.
But how can that be? I certainly *SEEM* to myself to be more than a bunch of molecules thrown together into a bunch of cells that make up tissues that form organs that make up my body including my – brain. My mind seems to me to be independent of matter. There seems to be SOMETHING ELSE in me that is driving me, making me who I am, making me work as a particular human being. I SEEM to have a non-material essence: call it a soul, a spirit, a being.
But I don’t think I do. It’s matter (turtles) all the way down. Otherwise the internal aspects of my being would not be altered or completely disappear when the material itself (the tissues in my brain) is damaged or destroyed. This leaves me with a puzzle. If I’m all matter, as I think, how can I seem to be far more than that?
It is very easy at this stage of reasoning to commit an error of thinking, which many of you will think is not an error. And, hey, it’s a free world when it comes to what you want to think about yourself, so think what you want! But for ME, at least, it is a very serious error at this point to claim that since we can’t explain this business of cognition, personality, emotion, decision-making, and CONSCIOUSNESS itself on purely material grounds, then we have to accept non-material explanations for it – for example, that there is a God who gave us rational abilities, personalities, emotions, and the like or that there’s some other kind of non-material force to explain us as humans since material explanations just don’t cut it.
The reason that’s an error is that just because we don’t understand something on material grounds does not mean that there has to be a non-material explanation. This is so easily demonstrated that I really don’t understand why most people don’t see the problem (i.e., why it’s an error). I myself have simply no clue how to explain how my toaster works. I plug it in, the coils get hot, I make myself some nice toast. But how does it *do* it? I have no idea. Or my microwave. Or an internal combustion engine. Or… most anything else that doesn’t involve what I spend my days thinking about.
The fact I don’t know the material explanations for how things work doesn’t mean there aren’t material explanations.[i] It just means I don’t know I’m going to do something here I’ve never done before: add an endnote!
Now in response to this I would maintain that you should not be thinking (another error!) that, “Yeah, but that’s different, because some people do know how these things work. The fact you yourself are ignorant doesn’t mean that these other things can’t be figured out. It just means that *YOU* don’t know the answer. But ‘consciousness’ is different. No one can figure it out on material grounds, even though they try and some claim that have done it (you’ll notice that the confident claims of figuring it out are not accepted by other “experts”). That’s because they can’t figure it out. And that’s why there almost certainly is not a material explanation for it.”
I say you should not be thinking that, in my opinion, is because to me, at least, this view is, well, uh, faulty. Here’s why. For the vast majority of human history everyone has known that lightning, earthquakes, and epidemics (and tons of other both things) were realities. They happened. But no one knew how or why they happened. Since people didn’t know how or why, they assumed such things were caused by the gods. But that was faulty reasoning on their part, as we now know. They, of course, had no way of knowing. But since we ourselves have seen this reasoning fail time after time after time after time – we should not use it ourselves. We should not say that if we can’t figure why something happens or is the way it is, based on what we know of the material world, then it must come from the spiritual world.
Let me stress: these people (prior to the Enlightenment) who thought such things were NOT less intelligent than we are. The human brain itself has not evolved significantly in many thousands of years. You and I are not smarter than Homer, Augustine, or Aquinas. Sorry, we’re not. They had no (true) idea about why or how these things happen. And as a result, since there were no convincing material explanations for them almost everyone assumed that there must, therefore, be non-material explanations.
I refuse to fall into the same trap. I want to be clear what my argument is. I am not saying there CANNOT be a non-material explanation. I am saying that the fact that I don’t KNOW the material explanation is not evidence that there can’t be one.
So does it all go down to presuppositions? I admit I’m a complete materialist. But I absolutely don’t think that I simply presuppose that there is a material explanation for what happens in this world, including inside material ole me. To me everything that *can* be explained in our world all points in that direction, including the dependence of the “self” on the material structure of the brain. But every reasonably humble materialist will agree in spades that believing that everything is ultimately material is NOT the same thing as saying we understand how every material thing works. And that means there are tons and tons and tons of things that continue to be very big mysteries to us.
For me, the biggest mystery is whether “There is an I in me.” I decided to write this blog post. I have decided that next I will walk my dog and then do some house chores. My physical body will do what I tell it to do (usually). My physical brain has made the decision. But if my brain is in fact completely material (physical) made up of decidedly material neurons, none of which knows it is alive or has free will, none of which can think or make a decision, none of which remembers a single thing about the past or gives a toss about the future, all of which are living only insofar as they are part of a living organism but if were cut out would be dead as a doornail, all of which are made up of molecules that are themselves not living – if all of that is true, as I think it is, how do *I* know that I’m alive, have free will, can make decisions, have memories, and know what I’m doing. What is actually thinking and making my decisions, if it’s not “I”? But how can molecules *decide*?
That’s my dilemma. What do you think?
[i] I should stress that my not knowing how non-material explanations can work also doesn’t mean that there aren’t non-material explanations either. I’m a materialist simply because I don’t think there are any good reasons (and certainly any *evidence*) that non-material entities that might affect my brain exist, in general, and I see *tons* of evidence for material explanations for just about everything, in general. And I really shouldn’t be saying this because now I’ll be getting TONS of responses from readers giving me the evidence for God based on their spiritual experiences. I get that. It used to be my view too. But I think there are always material explanations for these experiences too (involving the brain).
[*]The following anecdote is told of William James. […] After a lecture on cosmology and the structure of the solar system, James was accosted by a little old lady.
“Your theory that the sun is the centre of the solar system, and the earth is a ball which rotates around it has a very convincing ring to it, Mr. James, but it’s wrong. I’ve got a better theory,” said the little old lady.
“And what is that, madam?” inquired James politely.
“That we live on a crust of earth which is on the back of a giant turtle.”
Not wishing to demolish this absurd little theory by bringing to bear the masses of scientific evidence he had at his command, James decided to gently dissuade his opponent by making her see some of the inadequacies of her position.
“If your theory is correct, madam,” he asked, “what does this turtle stand on?”
“You’re a very clever man, Mr. James, and that’s a very good question,” replied the little old lady, “but I have an answer to it. And it’s this: The first turtle stands on the back of a second, far larger, turtle, who stands directly under him.”
“But what does this second turtle stand on?” persisted James patiently.
To this, the little old lady crowed triumphantly,
“It’s no use, Mr. James—it’s turtles all the way down.”
Thanks for this post.
I get it on the spiritual experiences.
Any thoughts on what would have to occur for you to believe in a non-material world.
No, but when it happens I’ll let you know. 🙂
Bart, everything we consider as physical, are entities that reach our consciousness via the bodily senses in some way: either directly, via scientific instruments or maybe via reading, spoken word or video /tv education. If you think about it, this is the *only* successful way the physical can be defined. Even our very bodies and brains are defined as a result of being detected / perceived and educated about in this way. How do we define the phsyical? Ultimately via agreeing on what we can perceive in these ways. Consciousness is the judge – our inter-subjective consciousnesses combined. This alone should make us realize that consciousness is more fundamental than the physical universe. Then throw in QM, SR & GR to undermine our notion of the phsyical as solid, space- and volume-occupying, mass-possessing particles with definite position and velocity / momentum…….. and what do you have left? Consciousness of stuff happening according to mathematical and geometrical rules. That’s it! Not only is there a whole universe of non-physical stuff, but all you think of as phsyical is a subsumed under the non-phsyical. Don’t limit yourself to your phsyical senses!
Excellent post! My own materialist views of the brain have been heavily influenced by neurological case studies (e.g., Phineas Gage) in books such as these (there are many others — please make suggestions) that chronicle how our perceptions, personality, sense of self, etc., depend on our material brain.
Oliver Sacks (1985) The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat
V. S. Ramachandran (1998) Phantoms in the Brain
Helen Thomson (2018) Unthinkable: An Extraordinary Journey Through the World’s Strangest Brains
Possibly related: In a Star Trek TNG episode (The Measure of a Man), Commander Riker activates Commander Data’s “off” switch, implying that the android Data is just a machine with no “human” rights. But we all have an “off” switch. Mine was most recently activated for a colonoscopy: One minute “I” was there, the next minute “I” was “gone” (though, luckily, I came back). In keeping with the Star Trek theme: Do a search for “Vulcan nerve pinch”.
Indeed every aspect of the contents of consciousness is correlated with some aspect of brain function. Knock out that bit of brain, and that content of consciousness cannot be experienced. However, correlation is not causation, but this psychophysical parallelism has led some to equate mind and brain, i.e. you are your brain. Whereas this might work for the contents of consciousness, nevertheless, consciousness itself – the halving of the experience by a unified experiencer – cannot be equated with the contents of that experience. There has to be a receptacle into which that experience is, as it were, poured. That is the conscious ‘I’ that cannot be explained by physics and its derivatives, including neuroscience. Now throw in modern physics, which completely undermines our concept of matter as fundamentally bits of solid space occupying mass possessing bits of stuff. See my comment to Bart above
Dear Bart!
I’m so happy to have found you! I have a similar background as you when it comes to the evangelical part in my youth, and I’m a non-believer today. I’m not an educated scholar, but in fact I studied christianity for two years from 79-81. And I’m about your age 🙂
Your blog today was (as always) very interesting and so to the point when it comes to the big mystery: «the human consciousness». For me it is not a dilemma to accept that a bunch of molecules working together in a pattern developed over a couple of hundred millennia (or maybe more) can think and make decisions even if a single molecule can not think :-). Think about how much AI robots today can do and think and develop their own «brain». And still the single content they are made of (the bits) cannot do the same.
I’m a musician/singer and I’m convinced that my creative ability comes from myself, my genes and all my inputs through life that in some way are saved in my brain and my nerves.
This was a happy response from a winterly Norway and once again: THANK YOU!!
Yep, you hit the nail on the head with this question. I like to think that I’m self-aware; That I “know” myself. Yet, I find more and more that I do not. For example, I think of myself as pretty kind and hospitable as a person, and yet, this week, as I found myself serving on jury duty, I came to be very unsettled about myself as I felt hostile, arrogant, and selfish emotions overwhelming me in an “alien” environment; a rude awakening.
However, I also have to live day to day and moment to moment, and the assumptions I adopt about the things I’m uncertain about effect how “well” I do that. Though I have no more certainty than anyone else about who I really am, I like to think that the real “me” isn’t confined to my material body, but is more like data stored in the cloud. I compile, manipulate, and derive more data on my pc, but the final product gets stored “online”. My PC may break down and I might become disconnected from my data, but it still exists somewhere, waiting to be accessed down the road. Not very scientific, but comforting nonetheless.
We are PCs invented by our parents!
Alan Touring asked, “Can machines think?” You are a machine, made of biological material, and capable of intelligence and consciousness. Your machine carries its blueprints/genes within its components and can make repairs to a limited extent. A machine is greater than each of its components, but non-functional without them.
Current “Artificial Intelligence” (non-biological intelligence) is insignificant compared to the human brain. The 1×10^15 synapses/connections within the human brain is only a guess… it may be far more. Eventually A.I. may eclipse the human brain if the number and complexity of connections within the central processor of an A.I. unit can be increased. If the connections vary appreciably (as the synapses/connections do between each of us humans), A.I. personalities might result.
An A.I. unit may someday be able to exist independently of humans.
Yes, you are material, a biological machine, coded by blueprints/genes that can combine blueprints/genes with another machine to produce a new, independent machine. Yes your consciousness functions independently of what came before you, just as A.I. someday will, as a result of a complex network of connections/synapses.
All this is true even if we do not understand human physiology.
But all this is a separate issue from whether humans (or A.I.) were created.
I agree with almost every point you make, Bart. But when you say “ If I’m all matter, as I think, how can I seem to be far more than that?”, I think that’s an error of perspective. There are countless entities in the universe, from black holes to bacteria, which are far more than the sum of their parts. My experience of “self” doesn’t make me feel like “more than” my brain and body – it makes me more amazed by my brain and body.
I also think there is clear evidence of the evolution of consciousness, scaling up from the most rudimentary nervous systems in flat worms, to the obvious consciousness in our closest ape relatives.
I have no prblem with that. Sticking to hard science, McCartney and Lennon, e.g., were far more than the sum of their parts. (!) BUt without the parts the “more than the sum of” doesn’t exist either.
Bart,
Have you ever read Max Tegmark or watched any of his YouTube vids? He has some on consciousness on one of my fav YouTube channels called closer to truth.
“consciousness is what intelligence feels like” Tegmark
I agree with him and others in the view it is emergent – and not just humans are C there are different levels of it on a sliding scale. And that one day centuries from now we will be able to download it into an external storage device. And WoW the questions that will bring with it…
SC
Hello Dr. Ehrman,
Iain McGilchrist (who wrote the Master and His Emissary about how the very structure of our brains helps us attend and experience the world) just wrote a two volume work on matter and consciousness called The Matter With Things. He contends, after reading umpteen sources, that matter is a phase of consciousness. Just as ice is a phase of water. He does go into materialist argument. If you do read the works, I would love to hear your take.
Wow. Thanks for that author. He looks amazing.
I agree with all of this, and I have no clue about any of it.
For me, the biggest mystery is whether “There is an I in me.”
cogito ergo sum
Um, and then he didn’t define “cogito.”
Because we are all atoms, are we considered one with the universe? If yes, then can we be considered the universe’s self-consciousness? This could explain how we have religious experiences and attribute the powers of the universe to “supernatural deities” when it is just our self-awareness of the universe itself.
Non-scientists and people with blind faith in their toasters have forever asked about the nature of consciousness and ” the mind”, purely human phenomenons seemingly larger than the sum of brain cells. ( you must have more brain cells than everybody I know, though)
Consciousness remains one of humanity’s greatest mysteries.But I suspect that the day it is elucidated and, ( O God), replicated, we might find that the answer is a lot simpler than we can now imagine. We will be able to teach it to teenagers just as we do sex education.
For example, I was shocked to learn that the brain was formed in a totally haphazard evolutionary fashion,with” aggregate” parts appearing as time went.
What I personally can’t decide is what concerns us the most . Is it
What makes us human?
The survival of our ” I” ?
The future of AI?
What awaits our descendants as they continue to evolve?
The discovery of a non-material reality?
As Biblically curious creatures,we must admit that Genesis’ account of our terrible ,earliest trespass,the acquisition of self-consciousness,was a visionary intuitive idea.
My second huge surprise was learning how tiny pills change the lives and personalities of humans.It goes to the core of who we think we are.
I am drawn to the idea among some philosophers and scientists (the late John Wheeler being one) that what ultimately is real is “information”, including the “qualia” of our existence – what philosopher David Chalmers calls the “hard” problem of consciousness. This “information” somehow manifests or instantiates as a physical world, but the information or qualia is what is ontologically primitive. Admittedly, I have no evidence for this, other than to point out that even the material world isn’t material all the way down. Physicists can probe matter down to the level of quarks, but beyond that matter dissolves into mathematics (i.e. information!)
I strongly suggest “The Soul of An Octopus.” Consciousness had to evolve from other animals.
Yup, me too. And yup, anyone who doesn’t think non-humans have consciousness has never owned a dog. Or an octopus.
I thought only humans have an awareness of their mortality.
People can be conscious without knowing that they will die, or even thinking about it.
Right!
How did the doctrine of divine grace develop in Xty?
Do you think Augustine of Hippo had a positive or negative effect on Xty? He seemed to wield a lot of power.
It goes back to the earliest writings of Paul, and is based on the Jewish heritage, where God from the beginning provided freely to humans and then to his people Israel, and then to the world. I’d say the question of Augustine is massively complicated. The most famous biography is the one by Peter Brown, if you’re interested in learning more.
I understand why people fret about the “soul” but in truth what we call “matter” is much more mysterious than the soul ever was. People quick to decry “reductionism” simply don’t understand.
Amen, Brother Stephen. Quantum Mechanics is way more complicated than the discussions of Saints Bonaventure & Thomas Aquinas. On NPR, I heard an explanation of Santa Clause with an appeal to M-theory. It made perfect sense!
I don’t find the idea of consciousness as a biological phenomena particularly convincing. And I read Daniel Dennett’s book Consciousness Explained from cover to cover, and in the end he hadn’t explained consciousness at all.
I find more interesting the idea of consciousness as one of the fundamental constituents of nature, like gravity. Unlike memories, consciousness wouldn’t seem to require state or storage, we could all be experiencing the “same” consciousness.
Consciousness seems like such an unimportant thing, psychologists and sociologists don’t need it to explain individual and group behavior, historians don’t need it to explain the march of events. Behavioralists such as Watson have denied it existed, it’s been referred to as the ghost in the machine, or the horse in the locomotive, strong AI theorists have claimed it’s an illusion. The only thing is, we can all experience it.
If we take it as fundamental that E = mc^2 then we are allowed a glimpse into the heart of material reality.
That it is not “material” any more than it is “energy”.
The answer to the mind/body conundrum is not a satisfying “answer” because it will be a wondrous mystery until we are long gone from this stage of our evolution.
For now it is a dynamic relationship (balanced on the ‘equals’ sign) that all the wisest mystics have pointed to, including Jesus:
“The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light”
There is something delightfully satisfying in this conception even though it answers nothing scientifically.
Another of my favorites which is an equation of mind and body:
“The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me.” -Meister Eckhart
One needn’t believe anything nor be “saved” in order to perceive the blistering truth in this mathematical/spiritual wisdom.
Robert Sapolsky, of Stanford, gave a course on Human Behavioral Biology. It is available on the Stanford YouTube channel. I highly recommend his lectures on Reductionism and Chaos, followed by Emergence and Complexity. The ideas he taught led me to conclude that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon, although I admit that this is a provisional conclusion subject to change with convincing evidence to the contrary.
Thoughtful read Bart. I remember listening to a Science Fair entitled,The Storytelling of Science, with many accomplished scholars like Tyson, Krauss, Dawkins,Greene and so forth. One particular moment, as the heavyweights were flashing their leather about different approaches to science, Krauss says (paraphrasing), I can’t help it wonder though, as therotical physicist, when we find something fascinating,whether mathematical and so forth,is the phenoma a property of the Universe or our brain? And we just don’t know is the answer. Greene,then interjects with, I find it somewhat confusing because,in responding to Krauss, the mathematics we create in our brain is intrinsic to the Universe thats also our description.There may be limitations in our brains,Krauss concludes and Tyson agrees. What hit me hard about their conversation is this, if what they are saying has elements of truth, what/why controls those thoughts/understandings in our conscious? On another occasion, an Obstetrician was remarking on the birth of a child he helped deliver. He was fascinated by the creation of life on how a baby’s heart begins to beat at the precise moment in the womb when it no longer depends on the mother to provide/sustain that life. Simply awe-inspiring.
My own perspective is anthropological / sociological. For instance, you say “I” decided to write, but if there were no other people around, the “idea” would have no substance. All organisms react and interact with their environments – this is the foundation of the nervous system of which the brain is center. “Decisions” are made in a matrix of self-interest and group interest, how does the organism benefit and how does its group. Hominins always interacted / communicated and as they prospered, more complex methods evolved, especially language. With language development, our brains continuously rewired and picked up on senses that before only dealt with sensory input. Language allows our interactions to be virtual as well as material. Writing amplified the rewiring. I know this isn’t sufficient, but overall, I don’t feel a lot of worry about what “I” am, I chalk much of my thinking to the Western concepts we learn early on from stories and writings. There is no assurance that this fancy brain / thinking is an evolutionary advantage, it may spell the demise of ours (and other) species. We think like modern Westerners, there we are.
What really bugs me is quantum entanglement. To paraphrase The Firesign Theater: How can something be in two places at once when it’s not anywhere at all?
If matter and energy are two aspects of the same thing and if space-time bends around light, then maybe the very concept of “location” is another of the universe’s illusions.
This post made a lot of points that I agree with better than I’ve ever made them. I pretty much agree with your view here, wholesale. I was a philosophy of mind guy when I was in grad school back in the late 90s when neural networks were all the rage. Studying neural networks (simulated parallel computers based loosely on the architecture of the brain) really makes one appreciate the power and pervasiveness of emergent properties (i.e. properties of a system that cannot be ascribed to any particular part of the system).
So for example, we might have a neural network that distinguishes male faces from female faces. No individual component of the system can tell a male from a female face, but the system as a whole can. This type of phenomenon is the rule rather than the exception when it comes to brains. And once you realize this, it’s a lot less perplexing how no molecule or individual neuron in your brain is conscious, yet the entire system is. “I” is a pretty nebulous abstraction, made of a lot of moving parts, but the emergent (i.e. systems-level) properties of neural networks are the way to explain it.
1. Quantum phsyics (and special and general relativity) have been telling us for over 100 years that matter is 100% empty and that matter and energy (and causation and space) are just interactions of mathamtical and geometical rules determining what happens next. In fact, matter is much more akin to the contents of a giant mathematical mind operating along rational principles (?Heraclitus’ s logos or Anaxagorus’s nous).
2. Matter is not fundamental and hence to try to explain consciousness as an emergent property of matter and energy arranged in space and changing through time (the physical) is a fundamental and monumental mistake.
3. To deny the “I” that “we” all know is present as the preceiving deciding entity that is utterly and absolutely neccessary for any thinking, feeling, perceiving and willing to take place, is another fundamental mistake (as Descartes and Augustine before him, pointed out).
4. The only way to solve the hard problem of consciousness (what you are asking and the explanation for the relationship between consiouness – ie mind and the phsyical world – ie matter in action), is to realize that the physical univrerse is a subset of a greater consciouness. Ditto for us!
Physics is mathematical? Yes. But a mind? No, that’s quite another leap.
Even if matter is not fundamental, that does not (by any logic) make mind fundamental. Bart has already cited compelling evidence that mind is an emergent property of matter, and that is in no way dependent on matter being fundamental.
Cogito ergo sum is a principle of what can be known – not what is fundamental or “preceiving”. Just because we cannot know things outside “I” with certainty (such as matter) does not entail that they do not exist, nor that they are “preceived”.
Your notion that the universe is a “subset of a greater consciousness” is simply a question begging assertion without evidence. It’s a slightly fancier way of saying, I don’t understand it, so it must be the gods. Such presuppositions have not fared well in the history of science.
If one postulates that mind emerges from the physical (ie that mind emerges from the brain), which is a very popular notion, it implies the brain is a more fundamental entity than the mind. The argument for the universe being more like mind is drawn from modern physics and that the physical is a subset can be easily argued from Hempel’s dilemma which leaves us no choice but to accept that the physical is a set of concepts based on what we intersubjectively agree we can perceive through our bodily senses (aided or unaided by scientific instruments). It is far from question begging.
Hempel’s dilemma, at best, demonstrates that physicalism, at present, offers an incomplete ontology; though it has also been argued effectively that the mind-body problem will probably be resolved within the QED domain.
You make grand over-arching statements for which you provide no evidence: matter is a mind? The argument for the universe being more like mind is drawn from modern physics? Maybe in obscure philosophical circles. Not in modern physics.
And, as I’ve said, there is no evidence for your assertion that the universe is a “subset of a greater consciousness”.
I can give you a more developed argument maybe in discussion, but just to kick-off, can you can tell me what an electron is (or what any other particle is), or by extension, what a lump of lead is, apart from (or in addition to) their mathematically describable properties? Can you also tell me where the re rules of behaviour (eg negative charge) of particles are “stored”? Can you tell me what space, matter and energy are except for their mathematical properties? A lot of physicists now think matter is emergent from informational / mathematical structures and only perceived as matter (ie solid, space-occupying, mass-posseseing etc) by virtue of its relationship to our bodies (bodies also conceptualized / perceived as matter). Mathematical structures are not matter.
Hey, you’ve been reading Job 38!
This is in answer to your last reply to me (for which there is no “reply” button).
As Eddington once observed, describing electrons and what they do is like the Jabberwocky: “slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe”. Obviously, when we look at the universe at both the subatomic and astromonic levels, we begin describing things and actions that have no real analogy in the world of humans or even planets or bacteria.
Do we know everything about them? No, of course not – though we know more than at any other time in history and less than our descendants will know in the future (assuming we don’t go extinct any time soon).
Can we describe them mathematically? Yes, matter and energy seem to operate according to mathematical principles.
Max Tegmark’s “mathematical universe hypothesis” not withstanding, looking past it’s many detractors – even if matter emerges from mathematics …
… neither mathematics nor matter are “a mind”.
If matter, energy and space emerge from mathematical rules, I suggested that the mathematical rules are more like the *contents* of a mind. Indeed “where” else or what else (other than a mind) would you postulate for the entitity which “holds” (and even perhaps originates) the mathematical rules?
I am again, replying where I can, because your last comment has no “reply” button. Your last comment is a classic example of the fallacy of begging the question. In asking “where else” or “what else” is the entity that holds and originates mathematical rules, you just presume that such an entity is necessary and exists.
And this is just an extension of the old God-of-the-gaps argument. Science has been explaining what religions have taken to be the action of the gods for centuries: movements of stars and planets, lighting, volcanic activity, evolution … the list of things which religion used to think was only explainable via the “mind of God”, is long and telling.
Now, you’ve simply added mathematics itself to the list. But, sorry, no. Such “intuitions” have long been revealed for the fallacies that they are. And presuming the necessity of a mind to originate mathematics is a particularly banal God-of-the-gaps notion. 1+1=2 regardless of whether a “mind” conceives it.
Come on Steven, there is no question-begging in my question to you (which you have avoided answering so far), because I prefaced my question to you with an “if” taken from your last answer to me, in which you made a conditional concession: “even *if* matter emerges from mathematics … … neither mathematics nor matter are a mind.” Also, I’m not making any God of the gaps argument, I’m just aksing you to follow up on your concession with an ontology that makes some rational sense with matter emerging from mathematics. If you come up with an altenative to mind as a container for maths, I’ll give it some consideration. I’m not stuck in any particualar camp. 1+1=2 is mathematical notation for a meaningful rational thought. Such an arithmetic thought certainly appears to be intantiated in matter, but as you know, matter is empty and I am postulating that the reverse is true: namely that matter is an instantiation of just such rational thoughts.
Neurotheologian’s latest comment does not have a reply button.
But at this point i am reminded of the seminal paper by Dr Sokal:
Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity
https://physics.nyu.edu/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
Took me decades to accept that my “I” doesn’t exist outside my material body and the processes generated by my brain neurons. How do I know I’m making correct decisions? Millions of years of evolution. Incorrect awareness of surroundings leads to death — or death of your helpless offspring. Self-aware beings that thrive, survive, and their offspring too, until Mom and Dad and then me! What happens after death? If there really is a resurrection of the body, then there will be no sensation of an in between. I breath my last and then: the last judgment! Or, if I retain partial or full awareness after death it’s because my consciousness was absorbed into God’s consciousness but allowed autonomy. Is that how Saints can have awareness prior to bodily resurrection? Mind you, I find none of that plausible. I accept “generic subjective continuity.” Material death is followed by loss of awareness immediately followed by new awareness. How? Because a new conscious life has been born somewhere in the universe after yours ended. This is not reincarnation. Nothing is transferred. Self-awareness ends. A new one begins. It happened before my present self-awareness. It will happen again after I die.
I just think you proved Heidegger’s point ( I think Heidegger) it’s not “ I think, therefore I am” it is “ I am aware that I doubt, therefore I am”
Sartre also pointed out in “ Nausea “ that Roquentin was troubled by suffocating existence.
Things didn’t exist as a part of his existence. They weren’t just a background for his day to day activities.
They existed for him independently and in fact we’re hostile or worse indifferent to his existence.
In Roquentin’s case it was the oily feel of a rock he found on the beach, the root of a tree that was beneath a park bench he was sitting on and a puddle of beer that was beneath his glass as he sat in a Parisian bar.
“ What you say, it’s just a puddle of beer, it was more than that, much more than that and suddenly I realized that I had reached the waters depths, towards fear”
In your case it’s a toaster. But it’s not just an object which is part of Professor Ehrman’s existenceIt exists. Existence is everywhere and it’s foreign and hostile and indifferent to our fate should we become involved with them!
I think consciousness has a direct link with suffering (which is a subject that you have discussed a lot).
As a summary, I can say that humans, cats, dogs and similar higher-level animals do have consciousness as they are all aware of themselves and aware of others and act accordingly.
I am assuming here that consciousness (or the major part of it) is just an intentional fault in our design (that was installed by the divine), which no engineer will dare to install in any machine. This fault is our moods, instincts, ambitions, and the ability to follow them against laws and moralities. This is actually the main part in the free-well; which is the ability to follow mood rather than morality.
The root of suffering comes from this fault, because this fault will cause people to be unjust with others. Therefore, struggles, wars, and domination start, and this is the essence of human suffering.
With today’s technology, we can install this fault (for example) in cars, so we can make cars that are moody with instincts (etc). But who will buy this car, who will dare to ride this car, and which country will allow this car?
—————>>
—————>>
However, this fault is the best biological recipe for innovation and development. It seems to me that heavens decided that human suffering is an accepted cost for the human innovation and development. If you look at it, suffering is the main cause for innovation specially in the field of law and morality. Humans are moving toward more morality though the movement is very slow.
A species with human brains without the fault in our design will create angels that will not have the drive for continuous development.
I also think that suffering is the main drive for the animal’s genetic developments. Science at the moment regards the genetic developments in animals to be random, however, there are some indications that some genetic developments are not random and somehow programmed. If this was the case, then suffering (that comes from struggles and survivals) would be a very strong drive for these genetic developments.
About how we know that we are alive, I would say it is also based on the intentional fault in our design: a life without moods, without needs, without ambitions is almost equal to death.
As a physicist this kind of thing is less confusing in quantum mechanics for me.
First of all in quantum theory there is a sort of “contrary holism” in the sense that certain properties of the whole can be true despite contradicting properties of the parts. Molecules as a whole can have properties that don’t really follow from and are largely independent of properties of the underlying atoms. Hans Primas used to write (very technical) articles on this. Bernard d’Espagnat discussed it a somewhat more popular level.
Secondly results like the Kochen-Specker theorem show that you can’t really think of atoms as objects “out there” possessing properties when you’re not observing them.
This leads to confusing results like there being no well-defined number of particles in your body right now, since that number only obtains a value in a certain kind of measurement.
Roughly speaking QM makes matter less “material”. I think Carlo Rovelli has youtube talks where he discusses this. It’s covered in d’Espagnat’s “Physics and Philosophy” quite well.
Yup, I have a similar dilemma with QM. And my sense is that almost every expert working on QM does as well!
Hi Bart!
I generally think the meaning and implications of quantum mechanics were worked out in the 1930s by Bohr, Heisenberg, von Neumann, Dirac, Pauli, etc. In other words the people who invented the theory. Expositions in the 30s-80s virtually only contained this view. Around the 90s it became more common to say there was some issue with our understanding of QM, but honestly I’ve never seen this issue presented in a form where the speaker isn’t essentially assuming a classical physical worldview. I think it’s all summed up very well by Seth Lloyd in less than two minutes here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvMx1baJwpA
Well, I’m not well-read in it, jsut enough to know that some of the leading proponents say that no one truly understands it.
Quantum field theory tells us that matter is not just less material, it is non-material. Subatomic particles, atoms and molecules are ways of thinking about energy being transferred from place to place sometimes described as ripples in quantum fields, but probably better described as interactions and patterns of interactions between quantum fields, which produce stable patterns akin to interference patterns, which enable us to say that some Particular interaction will continue to happen if you continue to interact with that system in the same way. That’s what gives us the stability of matter the fact that things will still be there when we don’t look at them and we can interact with them again and again. Ultimately, however, these are just mathematical and geometrical rules that allow such stability. Ultimately everything is more akin to what the Bible calls spirit and what we might call phase space, but ultimately is more like mind or consciousness than what we conceive of us of as particles.
Throughout my adult life, I have never found plausible that I have an immaterial soul. There is a scientific mystery how a purely physical entity, namely the brain, can give rise to consciousness and subjective experiences (termed “qualia”). But I don’t find compelling the philosophical argument that this mystery is evidence in favour of a soul – a notion that presents far more challenging problems than those associated with a physicalist view of the mind.
Bart asks: “My physical brain has made the decision…if all of that is true…how do *I* know that I’m alive.”
A physicalist (alias, materialist) maintains that the brain is identical to the mind. More accurately, our mind as we experience it, is our brain from the perspective of the brain in operation. So asking “how do I know” as opposed to “how my brain knows” is to fall into the illusion of dualism which rejects the identity theory of the mind. The brain is a composite entity, consisting of smaller entities such as molecules and neurons which individually lack consciousness. Lots of composite entities have properties absent in its constituent parts. One can also think of the mind as the software, the brain as the hardware.
Watch your pets. They live. They make decisions. Their brains are not that different from ours. Do they have spiritual beings?
Well, just speakng personally, my dog Nina is definitely going to heaven when she dies.
You may find this article about consciousness and quantum entanglement interesting: https://bigthink.com/hard-science/brain-consciousness-quantum-entanglement/
There is more to matter than just material.
The mystery of consciousness is indeed fascinating. How can something that is completely physical create something not physical? A non-physical consciousness.
Though true for all senses, I find it really weird that colors don’t actually exist. Just light waves, oscillations in the electro-magnetic field, that our eyes convert to signals for our brain which then takes those&somehow conjures up a non-real thing: color. So the question arises, if that leaf out there isn’t green, then what is it? Well, it’s nothing like what we perceive. Just a clump of matter. Meaning,the way we perceive reality is arbitrary. What’s out there, basically bits&bytes, could be interpreted as anything. So there’s all kind of stuff: dark matter,neutrinos,radio -waves,x-rays, etc. that we have no awareness of. Not because it’s not there, but because we don’t have any biological hardware to detect it.
Our physical bodies take input from the physical world&somehow create a reality that isn’t actually there. That seems to hint that consciousness derives from more than just what we deem regular matter. Perhaps there is also other exotic matter or quantum weirdness involved. Call it a spirit or call it some other scientific term,but something is doing all this.
The self is in my mind also outside the physical space and time frame. This is elaborated by the oldest scriptures in the world, the Upanishads and various other traditions and also in Platonic dialogues. (see Pierre Grimes, “The Betrayal of Philosophy, Rediscovery of the Self in Plato’s Hermendies”) and later Carl Jung’s lifelong scholarship on, among other things, the self, the mind and consciousness. In addition to that, our most modern physics studies, quantum physics involving sub-emperial structures and mechanisms as part of nature, but still a mechanism outside of time and space. Humans have been involved in the Self as a broader concept from antiquity until now, where indeed a realm of matter is part of it.
This is a basis for expanding a view, in which materialism is part of it, at least as a factor (although many reject the existence of matter as a fixed essence).
Within this concept is the “mind” which is probably also a subempeic element in itself, which cannot be understood by our 5 senses, but is largely related to our physical body as an active force or rather an active principle (but also a mind for a more spiritual side of our self (body), or the uncounciuos side of our self to say what Jung did.
The philosophical and scientific literature on this subject is enormous.
Oh boy is it. If I knew what my mind was, I’d say the literature is mind-boggling.
Agree on the organ nature. In the last few years I have begun to understand my brain a little better (I think). I’ve noticed that my dreams always seem to have something in them from the waking hours before and then links to other similar things that seem to form a story while I sleep. So why do we sleep??? Our bodies are perfectly capable of consuming and buring calories just like a car consumes and burns gasoline. But a car doesn’t need to sleep and if kept in good running order and with changes in drivers and adding fuel it could conceivably keep running for days/weeks/months. I believe we need to sleep in order for our organ to transfer the info it collected during our waking hours from short-term storage to long-term storage and re-index and make connections to other memories already stored there. It’s part of the organ’s function and without sleep it cannot do that function while also taking in new info. Awareness, consciousness, the I, are all born of our brain organ somehow. Take away sleep though and it all begins to fail.
The sense of “I-ness” disappears in dreamless sleep, intense activities, and sneezing (my observation anyway). The conundrum many of us face is, “How can I be aware and self-aware?” There seems to be 2 awarenesses or subjects and we know or intuit this is not true. Perhaps the sages who teach Advaita Vedanta are on to something about who or what we really are……
My work is the study of Differential Diagnosis, and this has led me down some delightful rabbit holes with respect to human cognition. One of the most fruitful has been my deep dive into Dual-Process Theory (DPT) – the basis for the Nobel-winning work of Daniel Kahneman (Thinking Fast and Slow), Amos Tversky, et al. DPT describes a kind of “bicameral mind” (faintly reminiscent of Jaynes) that breaks down our thought processes into a System 1 (fast, intuitive, “thin-slicing”) and a System 2 (slow, rational, deductive). In my own work, I started to run into difficulties understanding what regulated and modulated these two systems. What entity or process decided whether to listen to System 1 or defer to System 2? Who took the output of System 2 and decided to feed it back into System 1? Who was the Observer who maintained internal awareness of *both* Systems, and served as their referee and final arbiter? I finally decided that there *must* be a System 3. A search of the relevant literature confirmed I was certainly not the first to suggest this. But it wasn’t long before I realized: System 3 *is* the Self. The…soul?
Whoa. Thanks.
To anyone who may start thinking consciousness is anything more than a function (one of many) of an organic brain…….what ‘were you’, what concepts did ‘you’ contemplate BEFORE your organic brain was formed?
Amazing, amazing post. Wow.
I am a complete materialist as well. I think we are lucky primates who developed these incredible cognitive gifts as by-products of traits which evolved to help us survive in this world.
But, I still see “me” as unique and eternal even though I am not.
Our sense of self is an incredible thing.
It’s interesting how we have gotten to the point where we now create computers in our own image. Both computers and ourselves need an energizing source for the material components to work. The computer needs electricity and we need the Spirit. In Genesis it says God breathed life into Adams nostrils.
We seem to have a inert drive to survive and thrive. We consume good food for the body and good reliable information for the mind that is as long as we maintain that God spirit connection. But we do have free will and if we are tempted to let the evil spirit in there seems to be a tendency toward self destruction. That is, we consume unhealthy food and unreliable information that is dangerous for our health. I think the quality of our life is determined by the Spirit that resides in our Soul.
I’m totally with you in thinking that the evidence so far is wholly in favor of materialism being the only viable explanation of observed reality, consciousness and sense of being specifically included — yet.
But the “so far” and “yet” are something worth keeping in mind. Our understanding of reality has been continually changing since the 16th century when scientific empiricism took hold and it’s still growing at an accelerating rate. Consider that the atomic hypothesis of the composition of matter really got nailed down only around 1900.
Consider what our understanding of the brain was in 1880 vs what it is now. And now devices (“AI”) are starting to act a little like very early organisms might have when proto-brains first started to evolve.
I would not want to place any bets on where such matters will stand in 2100 CE, or even 2050.
I completely agree. It’s always amazing to me when people — including very famous scientists — declare the big issues completely solved.
I guess I’ve reluctantly accepted that free will doesn’t exist, but at the same time I can still have a meaningful existence without it.
I’m just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round.
Have you interacted with Sam Harris at all?
I did his podcast a year or so ago, but we didn’t talk about anything like this!
Maybe Socrates, unsurprisingly, sums up succinctly what you have described in more detail? To paraphrase Plato’s account : “I believe that I know nothing.” Certainly such humility is a good place to start.
Ha ha! Love this! I think about this kind of stuff too, probably like most of us who are getting older. One of my latest ‘thoughts’ is that when a thought comes to my mind to do something or think something, where is that thought coming from? I mean, is it really me or is there ‘something’ or ‘someone’ else that planted that thought in my mind? I’m basically a slave of the thoughts that come to my mind. But is it me who is generating these thoughts, because I realized that most of my thoughts are a result of outside stimuli, for example, reading your post about consciousness. I read somewhere that the quantum mechanics double slit experiment shows that ‘particles’ know if they’re being observed. It’s as if every atom in the universe is conscious. If a brain can create consciousness, how do we know that the universe itself with all its ‘matter’ is not conscious? Or maybe even, God himself. Animals have brains, some of them big brains, are they conscious? It’s actually hard for me to envision someone else to have consciousness when, from my perspective, I’m the only consciousness.
I would recommend the web site https://closertotruth.com, where Robert Kuhn (Ph.D. in brain science UCLA) has interviewed in depth most of the major thinkers on the question of consciousness–from physicists, psychologists, cognitive biologists, cosmologists, et al. Wonderful navigation.
For a mind-blowing introduction try Donald Hoffman’s interview segment here: Why Did Consciousness Emerge? https://youtu.be/L4Y1kvpjO9Q
You can find CTT on Youtube and all major podcast platforms as well. His interview style is as good as it gets, letting his guests speak while probing the issues in a non-directive way. Along with Kuhn there is then Lex Fridman, who has interviewed some of the same people…including three hours with Hoffman.
My “top five” on the topic of consciousness are: Penrose, Chalmers, Searle, Minsky, and Dreyfus which gives a good range of views from so-called “materialism” to something more mysterious or “transcendent.” It usually comes down to whether a computational model of the way the mind works is our best insight.
James,
I agree 100% about Closer To Truth – The physicist Max Tegmark also has some great videos there with his take on consciousness – his view I find makes the most sense for me…
BTW I just finished The Jesus Dynasty and thought it was wonderful highly rec to anyone out there who reads this !
Happy Holidays !!!
SC
Thank you for these recommendations and thank you for the great conversation on Misquoting Jesus.
H James. Nice to have you on the blog. I agree about Closer To Truth. A really great YT channel. I also agree with RayCiafardiniJr above that your chats with Derek Lambert are very informative. May I ask : in your YT video “Were Jesus and His First Followers Wrong About the End of the Age? “, what is the title of the Crossan book you refer to at about 25.30 ?
Thank you
Dear James, this is an excellent little book featuring most of those whom you mention: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philosophers-Consciousness-Talking-about-Philosophy/dp/1350190411/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
PS I hugely enjoyed your videos / podcasts on Paul, Mary, James, John the baptist etc. Being a tad cheeky, I wondered whether I could ask you a question?: Do you think that Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection of Jesus, rather than a physical resurrection of Jesus, bearing in mind he describes the resurrection body of Jesus as “spiritual” 1 Cor 15: 44 and says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable” 1 Cor 15: 50. ?
I start with the observation that I experience my life as “me.” That experience of my life is unique to me, my particular collection of events and emotions and knowledge. But that experience is a translation of the physical world. My body and my brain respond the the physical act of drawing a bow across a string. That physical act triggers physical sound waves. I do not experience pressure waves of a certain frequency; I experience (if the act was executed well) music. When I experience light shining on a tomato I do not think “Oh, there’s an electromagnetic radiation of 650 mn,” I think “red.” The sound of a violin or the color of a tomato do not exist in physical nature; they are non-physical creations of the brain. Because humans are by nature curious, one may want to push beyond that point. But I find it sufficient to realize that my experience of human consciousness is a non-physical, unearned gift, and that (because it is dependent on my brain) it is a time-limited gift. So what counts is how well I honor and cultivate that gift while my physical brain is alive, respecting that gift in others.
Hi Rodge,
I think here you are discussing the difference between primary qualities (i.e. the properties that exist in objects themselves) versus secondary qualities (ones that are properties of observation/experience alone). The interesting thing is that quantum mechanics says virtually all physical properties are actually the latter. Things like wavelengths of EM radiation or photons just have a wide range of cases where they seem to be primary, but push them far enough and you’ll see they’re not. For example it’s possible to set up an experiment where the human eye would see a certain colour, but an spectrometer would detect an opposing wavelength with neither being “correct”.
The deeper question then is are there primary qualities at all? Perhaps there are none, or perhaps there are but they are ineffable. Probably not something science can decide.
I think quantum mechanics may be irrelevant to our everyday discussions. Material (objective) truths can be the subject of Newtonian agreement to the extent that we can have a shared vocabulary with which to discuss them (temperatures, viscosity, tensile strength) . Spiritual (subjective) truths cannot be the subject of agreement, because there is no precise language of internal experience (visions, emotional reactions, revelations). Thus, we have to resort to poetic devices when asserting our personal spiritual truths. We can have productive debates about what we can learn about evolution from fossil records, but not whether or not they reveal God’s purpose. In other words, it is not productive to use spiritual truth to challenge the theory of evolution, but also not productive to use the facts of evolution to disprove the existence of God.
Well. Why stop at decision-making molecules? Why not not ponder executive red charm quarks? Then decide what “motivates” them.
I dunno. But according to the Moody Blues (‘To Our Childrens Children Children’), you’re magnetic ink. Much has been e-spilled on this topic.
I can also offer multiple references, no doubt many of which you’ve already consulted. Will send to you what appears to be the latest, courtesy of one of my colleagues. Lots of pages.
Dr. Ehrman – Great article. Thank you! Asked this on Twitter right before subscribing to your blog 🙂 – Where does this leave you on the topic of free will? You mention it in the article, and to what extent, if any, do you believe we have free will?
My personal belief is that … I genuinely don’t know, but I doubt it. My practice is to believe in it and to assert it at every opportunity I can.
“But I don’t think I do. It’s matter (turtles) all the way down. Otherwise the internal aspects of my being would not be altered or completely disappear when the material itself (the tissues in my brain) is damaged or destroyed. This leaves me with a puzzle. If I’m all matter, as I think, how can I seem to be far more than that?”
From your account, Bart; you appear to consider ‘reality’ to consist of two sorts of entities; ‘things’; and ‘explanations of things’ (or what we might term ‘facts’). No problem there; most thinkers agree.
Clearly ‘things’ are ‘material’ entities; but what about ‘explanations’? Usual typologies classify explanations as ‘reciprocal discourses’; hence ‘non-material’. Yet your text talks of ‘material explanations’ – as though a chair explains a table (or a table explains itself)?
Humans have identity both as ‘things’ and as ‘discourses’ – as we can explain ourselves. We are all both sorts of real entities.
So you don’t necessarily need to search for ‘the I in me’ solely amongst the components of ‘Bart as a thing’; when you may more fruitfully search amongst the components of ‘Bart as reciprocal discourse’.
Yup, I think a out that a good deal too. And don’t know the answer. But as with other things, doesn’t knowing the answer to that puzzle doesn’t require a different answer to the issue that raises it… And so we go!
Tom, I think reciprocal discourses establish inter-subjective agreement about what exists. For example, one scientist sees a read out of a sceintific instrument and another scientist sees the same read out (through his/her visual sense) and there is agreement. The fact that gravitational waves, neurtrinos or whatever, are said to exist, is then expressed in a mutual language as ‘facts’. Some facts, such these and even the fact that you and I are carbon-based lifeforms, require building on a whole stack of other prior asumed more fudamental facts, such as what we agree carbon atoms are etc. All such conceptions are built fudamentally on what comes through sesnory experience, as Kant accepted in his famous introduction to the Critique of Pure Reason. But you and I are not just facts, we are thinking things, experiencing things, feeling things, ie ‘conscious things’ to which facts have meaning. That meaning is that those facts correlate with what we have experienced, which gives them truth value (as in the correspondence theory of truth). Consciousness of choices is what provides for free will. Re *contents* of consciousness disappearing with approriately targeted brain damage, see above.
In the computer world, data can be stored with error detection and correction so that any error can be recovered from– other than massive catastrophic failure, anyway. Similarly I think however the brain stores information can survive the loss of even thousands of brain cells– assuming they’re not all too concentrated in one area or suddenly all at once. So I think the *information* contained in the brain can survive the relatively slow process of normal aging by something like error detection and correction. As for whether or not that is the sum total of our lived experience or what we call consciousness, I don’t know; but at least the information part seems to have an analog in technology.
The question I have is this– If there were some way to exactly replicate every bit of information and structure in my brain into a clone or some kind of super computer, will I have created another “me” that I can experience, or have I just created an entity that thinks it is the “original” me? I’ve been tangling with that question for months now, and I suspect I will die not knowing the answer.
Yup, you’d have to ask the computer. 🙂 THe big problem of course is that only a (relatively) small portion of your brain deals with your semantic memory/knowledge. disabledupes{a83f837fc152120721a4d71404273cbd}disabledupes
If I’m honest, that was the most shocking thing I learned about human cognition– that what we think of as our consciousness (i.e. the whole of what we think of as us) involves only something like 2 or 3% of our brains. It feels like our ego (for lack of a better term) wants to take all the credit for not a whole lot of work. Which, now that I’ve said it, is kind of what egos do. 🙂
The best expression of this is a limerick that Alan Watts wrote:
“There once was a man who said though,
it seems that I know that I know,
What I’d like to see,
is the ‘I’ that sees me,
When I know that I know that I know.”
Ah, that’s a good one.
To me, the issue of consciousness and whether it is dependent on physical matter is related to the conundrum presented by documented instances which indicate that reincarnation is a thing that cannot be dismissed out of hand. Five years ago I never thought I would be typing this. But some of the rigorously documented cases investigated by the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia seem to belie any other explanation. And if memories – a function of consciousness – can survive death, then what are they?!?
You may want to read the science on the other side of that one…
Bart, if I could be so bold as to paraphrase what I believe to be your position, it would be “all I can really be sure of is the existence of the material world, whereas what I perceive to be my consciousness and self may actually just be a mirage that results from physical and chemical processes.” That is certainly one way to look at it and nobody can prove it wrong.
But I fall more in the camp of Descartes. The only thing I can really be sure of is that “I think, therefore I am.” The material world may or may not be a mirage of sorts, but I am definitely here to ponder that question.
The problem is that, technically speaking, despite what Descartes ends up arguing, beyond the cogito ergo sum, there is nothing to be concluded. That’s pretty much *it*. So a doubting being exists, but that’s all you know.
Personally, I’m glad there can be no definitive answer to Bart’s question (in spite of so many attempts to manufacture one)! The world is a much more interesting place with some mystery left in it. However, here are some of the things that I consider when I ponder such questions:
Matter and energy are really the same thing – completely interchangeable. This is this most basic meaning of Einstein’s famous equation E=mc2.
The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, only altered.
There is some kind of “energy” associated with being me.
As smart as we like to think we are, and in spite of all we’ve come to know about our universe, the Kosmos is almost certainly WAY more nuanced and layered than we can even conceive, and we are almost certainly only able to perceive a limited part of it. We must learn to live joyfully in the mystery!
(And yes, Bart, I do personally believe that there is a “you” in you, but that “you” is not something you can understand as you.)
You have to be careful with this. I read Julian Jaynes The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind years back and think I bent my brain a bit! As you noted
“what I think I know I think is right. Otherwise, I would think something else and think that was right.” Reminds me if the discourse between Darrow and Bryan at Scopes trial:
Darrow — What do you think?
Bryan — I do not think about things I don’t think about.
Darrow — Do you think about things you do think about?
Fun topic, thanx!
The mind-body problem is too hard; I was on the Journal of Consciousness forum for many years, before it was abolished, and looked at lots of different theories about it. None of them solve the problems. As one of the replies above mentioned, it now seems like there is actual evidence that the quantum world is involved in consciousness in some way (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2399-6528/ac94be). For years that seemed implausible to many. But the actual world is more mysterious than we humans can comprehend. Carl Sagan said that we are the cosmos observing itself. So, what is the cosmos? In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus actually seems to make reference to the mind-body problems in saying number 29:
(29) Jesus said, “If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being
because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty.”
The question of an “I” inside us is one that the Buddha denied. But toward the end of his life, the Buddha did seem suggest a self.
Fascinating topic! Trained as a physicist, I’m pretty much in the materialist camp, though as still a member of a (very liberal) church, I suppose I’m on the fence. I hope it is not barbed wire! Dan
Dennett’s book “Consciousness Explained” got me thinking seriously about this many years ago. Like you, I have no answers, and by no means am I an expert in this area. I tend to like the ideas of “emergent phenomena” and “phase transition” in this context and, for that matter, regarding “what is life”. A recent book that I found very interesting on this topic is “Journey of the Mind: How Thinking Emerged from Chaos” by Gaddam and Ogas. Not sure they have any answers, but it is stimulating reading!
Ah, thanks.
While I don’t sit in pews anywhere, I’m a fan of Spinoza and Eddy and the Shema (Deut.6:4) when it comes to speculating about the nature of reality, preferring to believe there is only One Thing — everything else being “fractions” of One. Here I will quote Eddy’s Scientific Statement of Being, a radically anti-physicalist position:
“There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all. Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual.”
From Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures
by Mary Baker Eddy, p. 468:9–15. (NB: it claims a correlative scripture from I John 3:1–3 )
MeridaGOround dot com
Bart, we need to have a beer. Roughly 2000 years ago, a historical personage claimed to his followers that a supernatural creature would soon descend from the sky and end all of their suffering. Roughly 500 years earlier, another historical personage claimed to his followers that he had discovered a non-spiritual, material end to human suffering. Which person would you rather interview? Which claim seems the most plausible? And why?
Neither seems plausible to me, until I’ve had more than one beer…..
I agree with everything you wrote in this post.
I am interesses In your courses, but I have 2 questions because my English level is basic beginner. Do the courses you offer have subtitles? Recorded classes are in what format or program or aplicacional?
Do yo umean the classes I’m recording these days (www.bartehrman.com)? I believe transcripts are made of them though; and transcrpts are available for my courses with the Great Courses.
I guess we are greater than the sum of our parts. Elements of your discourse reminded me of Philip K Dick and the blurring of humanity and highly sophisticated androids in some of his novellas. Could we all be robots with implanted false memories of childhood etc., equipped with very advanced A.I? But then that doesn’t explain WHO created us in the first place and WHY.
The only other thing I would add to my previous comment is that I don’t believe actual dualities exist in nature. Whatever mind (consciousness) is and whatever the body (brain) is, they are not two separate phenomena. Whichever is ontologically fundamental, they are inextricably interconnected and are a reflection of each other. I also suspect that our individual consciousness, what we call the “self”, is part of a much greater whole. There is a part of us that is connected to a much deeper and vaster wisdom than our conscious, waking minds have access to. For millennia we have instinctively known that we tap into this deep level through dreams and through the effects of hallucinogenic substances, but it was only with the work of Sigmund Freud that the reality of the subconscious mind began to be accepted by mainstream science.
Apocryphile, 2 great points beautifully expressed:
1. “whichever is ontologically fundamental [consciousness and brain], they are inextricably interconnected and are a reflection of each other” – Agreed for contents of consciousness, but not for the consciously experiencing “I” of point 2 🙂
2. “I also suspect that our individual consciousness, what we call the “self”, is part of a much greater whole” – Yes, yes, yes! – as in the discussion of Atman and Brahman in the Upanishads, but possibly also consistent with the spirit of God (singular) being present in all of us (plural) and consistent with gnostic ideas of us being divine sparks from a single divine flame.
As the Upanishads argue, the “I” cannnot be found probably because, as the Buddhists and Taoists argue, it is empty, but it still has existence
Bart, here’s a small practical experiment. Rub your fingers together. What and where do you feel that? Now put another finger towards roughly where the mental processing of that experience seems to be located. So just *how* do our *mere neurons* create the experience of “out there” when it’s happening, literally, “in there”, and, just “where” in your head does that experience literally reside? Do you think that consciousness as experienced vs brain function as measured electrically/chemically might be analogous to a “house” versus its constituent *bricks*, the sum being *greater than the parts*, just *more complicated*? Ever watch a movie binocular scene which shows two overlapping circles but in reality we only see one circle? Integration – how? Greatly enjoyed your ruminations, and that of the many commentators. Love the Turtles all the Way Down, there may be more to that than just a dodge.
So many interesting responses! I’d like to add one more about language. So much of our thinking is driven by our language. Our psychology demands explanations of phenomenon with causes and agents with motives. We can reason and plan and research. We can use language to measure how close our ideas match our experience of our lives. We’ve learned to structure our perceptions of the world as amazing displays of energy and matter interacting even as we don’t understand the mechanisms of how they interact. So much magic!
The social reality that language allows us to construct creates a special place for “I” – an entity with free will and yet able to be conditioned. Language allows us to ask questions whose answers we may not even understand. When the Ancient Greek mathematicians pondered the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle of side 1, they could not grasp the square root of 2 as it is not a rational number expressible as a ratio of two integers.
I can still feel your dilemma in the question of “how do I know when I’ve awoken in the morning that I’m the same me that went to bed last night?”
Well, it’s certainly true that a ton of ink has been spilled on these issues…no way are we going to resolve them right here on this blog! Here are a few of my thoughts though.
First, a point that may seem like a technical semantic quibble. There are plenty of things that physicists regard as physical but not material–magnetic fields, radio waves, etc. That raises the possibility that even if immaterial souls do exist, they’re physical. The real problem with positing such souls, I submit, is that they don’t actually help explain consciousness. It’s no easier to explain how conscious experience arises from an immaterial soul than to explain how conscious experience arises from a material brain. Sure, you can assume that a soul is an entity capable of being conscious. You can even define the word “soul” that way. But an assumption and a definition do not amount to an explanation.
Second, consciousness itself can’t really be observed and is difficult to define. I think that’s what really makes the problem so hard–we don’t actually know what it is we’re trying to explain.
Thanks. Are material-magnetic fields/radio waves/etc. possibly without matter? THat is, could they exist before the big bang and apart from it?
Energy and Force according to physics, has no beginning nor end, thus existed prior to the big bang. They are what enabled the big bang to happen.
https://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2022/03/033.html#:~:text=Prior%20to%20the%20Big%20Bang,the%20universe%20desolate%20and%20cold.Z
https://lweb.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/bb_whatpowered.htm
Nothing is known about the form of energy prior to the big bang. Electromagnetic fields and waves are forms of energy and forms of energy create other forms of energy.. So electromagnetic fields may not have existed prior to the big bang in that form, but another form of energy created the electromagnetic fields during and after the big bang.
This lends to my view that God is Energy that works by Force, without a beginning and without an end. I can’t get past Genesis 1:1
Energy existed before the big bang?? Uh … which physicists are you reading who say that? Force? Without matter??
Light is a photon which has no mass thus is not matter. Eddingtons test proved Einsteins theory that gravity (a force) affects photons. Thus Force realized outside of matter. So pretty much all physicists will agree, and certainly Einstein agreed.
Only force of Gravity requires matter (mass). There are other “forces” https://www.space.com/four-fundamental-forces.html and theory of a fifth https://www.voanews.com/a/new-force-of-nature/3472253.html#:~:text=If%20you%20remember%20any%20of,and%20the%20strong%20nuclear%20force.
Regarding what existed before big bang.. it’s all theoretical, but realilty is that “something” resulted in the big bang. “Something” existed prior to big bang. What is speculative theory, is what that “Something” is.. Big Bang did not create Energy and Force They existed before
You should follow Roger Penrose. He is currently trying to discover what contiousness is..
https://youtu.be/DpPFn0qzYT0
I believe that’s one of the big debates in pysics, no, whether “something” can come from “nothing”?
There never was never is and never will be “Nothing”.. absense of matter is not “nothing”
This is about as simple a video you can watch trying to define enery and force.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u36H4Uo3rPM from Fermilab. It’s really worth the 10 minute watch.
“Something” is created from Energy and Force.. not nothing.
Energy and force have no beginning nor end.
This is not really debated in the mainstream.
Thanks. That’s not the impression I have gotten from reading Brian Green, Sean Carroll, Katie Mack, and so on, who are either agnostic on the question if anything was before it or lean toward not thinking so. But maybe I misread them. In the beginning was the Singularity. That, pof course, is “something,” but what it is is … well, take your stand.
Magnetic fields, radio waves, etc. can definitely exist without matter. In the early universe, shortly after the Big Bang, they were very much dominant over ordinary matter.
If you’re going to talk about “before the Big Bang,” that’s getting into vastly more speculative territory.
I’d say that it’s something beyond “vastly more” speculative. Before the Big Bang, at least based on current knowledge, there is nothing BUT speculation! 🙂
I’ve been researching about consciousness for awhile now, and have formulated an interesting view..
1st Off… Think of the brain (and body) as “hardware”. The brain is a biological processor and provides data storage (memory). Then in this sense, conscousiness at all levels would be “software”.. So then the real question is where does the software come from. I believe that Quantum Mechanics is only looking at the “processing” but not the Software. Another question is “Who” is the person inside us? Obviously it must be software that is stored within the memory that the processor processes as conscousness. But again.. where does that software come from?
The 5 main senses for sure feed the brain/processor information for the conscousness. sight, sound, smell, touch, and taste. The is also another sense called proprioception that is like a memory created by the 5 senses which creates an awareness of our physical self. This software is created through chemical processes of the brain/processor manifested as “brain waves”.. Thus I feel that the software is an electromagnetic wave.. (http://thoughtmedicine.com/)
But there are senses.. Sense of belonging, Loving, etc.. Is it possible that there are EM wave outside the brain feeding this sense?
In continuation of my first post..
So is it possible that there may be a source outside the body emmiting electromagnetic waves, that our brains can interpret/process as “senses” such as Good, Evil, Fear, Love etc? Something like a “Universal Conscousness”.
Studies show that peoples brainwave will “synch” when teaming up for a task.. (Single mindness) . https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/brains-might-sync-as-people-interact-and-that-could-upend-consciousness
So I now question if there is not a universal wave (consciousness) that when one brainwaves synch with it, they then feel peace with the world, themselves, and the universe. Could the “source” of that universal wave/consciousness be what would be considered God? That Pauls message was all about getting your thinking in line with the universal consciousness of God?
Does doing good give you peace at heart? Is your brain waves in Synch with the Universal Consciousness?
No way to prove such… but we have much evidence on the brain waves…
Bart, you replied to my comment above by saying “a doubting being exists, but that’s all you know.” This is where our viewpoints converge! I agree with you. And this is why I (now) call myself an agnostic, but not a materialist.
All I *know* is that I have consciousness. I can’t *know* or verify anything beyond that. I can’t *know* that a God exists; I can’t *know* that no God exists (to say nothing of a flesh-and-blood son of God). I can’t *know* that there’s a material universe that persists, even when not being observed by a consciousness like mine. (Thanks, quantum physics.)
All I can really *know* is that “I think.” Beyond that, I must be agnostic in all matters, including theology AND physics. Nonetheless, I find it to be compulsory to ponder the possibilities.
Well, you could be deceived into knowing you have consciousness I suppose. Evil demons can do amazing things. (If you know you can think, you may be programmed that way!)
Descartes (and Augustine beforehand) made the logic crystal clear that “you” can NEVER be deceived into knowing you have consciousness. Being deceived requires consciousness. Whether what you think is a deception or not, the fact that you think anything at all, cannot itself be a deception. The illusionists ( who think consciousness is an illusion) such as Dennett and Frankish, despite being brilliant minds fall into this ‘Cartesian trap’, so you’re in good company 😊. But Strawson calls illusionism the silliest idea in philosophy.
Well, you can never be deceived into thinking you were deceived, at least. 🙂
😂 – you can of course: it’s called conspiracy theory! Or you might argue that it’s called apocalypticism!!. But it might be that the conspiracy theorists or the apocalyptics turn to be right, in which case, you might be deceived about being deceived about being deceived!
Philosophy professor Charlie Huenemann has an amusing dialog on extreme skepticism in his free ebook titled KNOWLEDGE FOR HUMANS: https://uen.pressbooks.pub/knowledgeforhumans/part/2-skepticism-a-dialogue/
His book, focused on epistemology, skewers the problem of excessive skepticism..
Semester is over! My students in The History of the Holocaust always struggle to comprehend Nazi morality, as do I. I just watched a recent YouTube debate: “Does God Exist? | Dr. Michael Shermer vs Dr. David Wood” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKd2Ht5Bs-k). In response to Shermer’s claim regarding the sociological (naturalistic/materialistic) origin of morality, Wood decided to reveal he was a diagnosed sociopath (a “Christian sociopath”), who could not function in society if morality were the creation of society. He actually said: “I’m not wired to care about [anyone in my audience].” Wood, I think, was claiming that since he was was a sociopath, therefore, God, the invisible giver of moral law, must exit. Otherwise, what?, he might harm everyone in his audience? Since this revelation came at the end of the debate, Shermer did not respond to it. Bart, are the spiritual needs of the “defective person” (Wood’s description of himself) in some way a proof of the limitations of scientific materialism? Hitler was defective, therefore, God!
Wow. OK, that’s quite an argument. Amazing what some people find persuasive for themselves. (I suppose they aren’t wired to see the problems…) But it’s very strange to say that the origins of morality have an unalterable effect on either their utility or persuasiveness. Would he think traffic laws are a good idea if it turns out they weren’t handed down by God?
Have you debated David Wood, Bart?
Not to my knowledge!
Your colleague Douglas Long, Professor of Philosophy Emeritus, has as a guiding principle of his thought J.L. Austin’s observation that philosophical problems often appear as seemingly irreconcilable pairs of terms. Austin further observes that in these pairs, one of the terms typically seems more innocent, while the other seems mysterious and impenetrable. Austin’s capper: a fruitful strategy for casting light is to make a fresh examination of the more innocent-seeming member of the pair.
Following Austin’s formula with the mind-body pair of terms, we might do well to reconsider our usual assumption that the concept of a body is philosophically clear and simple. The philosopher Galen Strawson reminds us that physics has remarkably little to say about the essential nature of physical stuff, that pretty much all of physics is about structure.
What we know for certain is the reality of conscious experience: it’s undeniably immediate and we’re immersed in it. What if, far from being dumb, hard matter, or even the strange world described by quantum physics, the intrinsic nature of the physical is mind-stuff? In contending with the relation of mind and body, that puts us in a vastly wider and more promising universe of possibilities!
It’s certainly vastly wider. Whether it is more promising is another issue, given how many advances have been made by one approach so far over another. But hey, we need to be open to all the options!
Yes. Mathematics alone is vastly wider than the mathematics instantiated in the physical universe. That’s one clue that physical stuff is indeed a subset of mind stuff. Another big clue relates to your Galen Strawson quote. In fact physics does tell us a remarkable fact about matter which physicalists cannot accept. It tells us that not only atoms, molecules, crystals and metals are mostly empty, but that the subatomic particles that they are made up from are also empty. In other words, matter is 100% empty – it’s all structure. And that structure is akin to a set of interference patterns in equilibrium, determining stable repeatable interactions (transfers of energy and information) that give physical entities the stable properties that make them physical. Objects made of matter are in reality processes that are stable through time. Everything is in s state of becoming and as the hermetics say “All is mental” (content of mind). And “All is vibration” (consistent with waving fields). Matter is empty, space is full (cf zero point fields). Matter and space can be squashed to zero (black holes), and bent. Everything is commands and mathematical rules.
I mused over this as a child. A friend lost his thumb. He still identified as himself sans his thumb. I knew the same would be true if he lost a hand, arm or leg. I started to think, what piece of him would have to be severed for him to now identify as the severed piece, not the original body from which it came. I knew enough to know it was the brain, but where within? Where is Bart’s “I” housed?
To Dan Dennett there is no such place. The centrality of self-identity is a chimera. Our consciousness is an amalgamation, a tapestry. Lose some memory to a stroke and you are still you, but less of you; reduce your reasoning ability through drug abuse and the same is true. Alter 0.5% of your DNA and you’re a chimpanzee, with less reasoning ability. The “I” reduces in lockstep with the biological complexity that creates it. Seems dispositive of the notion of a soul without biology. It is like a building without walls, windows or floors. A mere concept.
Wondered if you ever came across the book The Goldilocks Enigma: Why is the Universe Just Right for Life? by Paul Davies. If not, I’d recommend putting it on your reading list. Prof. Davies has a knack for explaining, simply and clearly, complex topics at the cutting edge of physics and philosophy, and the question in his subtitle is probably one of the most profound and mysterious in all of science.