Readers of the blog will know that I’ve talked a lot about scribal changes in the writings of the New Testament, making it difficult to know what the author originally wrote. Which in turn makes it difficult to know what a translator should translate. Which words?? The ones in this manuscript, or in that manuscript, or some other manuscript??
Sometimes people say to me “Well, if you say that about the New Testament you’d have to say that about all ancient texts!” They say this as a rhetorical statement (even scholars have said this to me! Even New Testament scholars!!) — as if THAT would be the most ridiculous thing you can imagine. You can’t possibly think there are problems like that with Plato, or Euripides, or Cicero! What’s wrong with you?
Yeah, there ain’t anything wrong with me — at least in this respect. Of COURSE we have the same problems with all these authors. Often far worse than with the New Testament. The reason (some) NT scholars (including some NT manuscript scholars!!) don’t know it is because they focus so much on the NT they don’t realize there’s a bigger world out there. Oh boy is there a bigger world out there.
For now I won’t be dealing with, say, Homer’s Odyssey,but with the topic of the current thread, the Christian authors collectively known as the “Apostolic Fathers” (see my previous two posts). When I produced my edition of them (Greek/Latin texts and translations) I saw the problems up-close and personal: (a) we do not have the original texts of any of the Apostolic Fathers (just as we do not have the originals of any book of the New Testament, or of the Hebrew Bible, or, well, of any book from the ancient world) and (b) the copies we have all differ from one another. And so which copies do we trust?
For each of the apostolic fathers there are different sets of problems along these lines, because these writings were not circulated, before the 17th century, as a group, but separately, for the most part. And so, manuscripts that have the Letters of Ignatius do not also have the Martyrdom of Polycarp; and those that have the Didache do not have the epistle of Barnabas; and so on (with a few exceptions). Sometimes we have a good number of manuscripts to compare and contrast with one another, sometimes not.
The worst situation is with the letter to Diognetus, which was not known to exist until a 260 page manuscript was accidentally discovered by a young cleric in 1436 in a fish shop in Constantinople – apparently the manuscript was being used to wrap up fish for sale! And that solitary manuscript was later destroyed by a fire in 1870 when Strasbourg’s municipal library was destroyed by fire during the bombing of the city in the Franco-German war. Luckily it had been copied and studied before then!
Most of the textual problems in the Apostolic Fathers are like those found in the manuscripts of the New Testament – not really significant for much of anything. But sometimes the manuscript variations are interesting and important. In this post I’ll give just one intriguing example from the letters of Ignatius; in my next post I’ll give another from the Martyrdom of Polycarp; and then I’ll move on to other things. (There has never been an exhaustive study of the textual variants in the Apostolic Fathers; I was thinking about producing one once, but got sidetracked doing other things….)
Ignatius is an intriguing figure from the early second century. A bishop of Antioch in Syria, he was arrested, apparently for Christian activities, and sent (we’re not sure why) to Rome to face trial and be thrown to the wild beasts in the arena. He wrote seven letters en route to his martyrdom, and those are the only writings we have from him. In one of them, to the Christians in Rome, he pleads with them not to intervene for him: he wants to be torn to shreds by the animals and die as a martyr so he can imitate Christ in his death. Ignatius makes for a very interesting study; I think I’ll talk more about him down the line on the blog.
For now I’m concerned with the textual problems in his surviving letters. One of the most interesting occurs in the Letter to the Magnesians 8:2. Interestingly enough, the corruption appears in all of the surviving Greek and Latin manuscripts. In these witnesses, Ignatius says: “There is one God who manifested himself through Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal word, which did not come forth out of silence” (IgnMagn. 8:2). But as scholars since the 19th century have noted, the Armenian version of Ignatius (i.e., the translation of his letters made in ancient Christian Armenia) reads differently: there Jesus Christ is said to be God’s “word which did come forth out of silence.” That would be, well, the opposite.
There are solid grounds for thinking that, in this instance, the Armenian text is original. It makes good sense in its context and that that it accords particularly well with how Ignatius speaks of the incarnation elsewhere. Most persuasive, though, is the fact, long noted, that the text as given in the Armenian, that Christ was the “Word which comes forth from Silence (the Greek word is SIGE),” would have been changed by scribes concerned about its Gnostic overtones. For there were Gnostics who maintained that Silence, “SIGE”, was one of the two primordial divine beings (i.e. one of the two principal archons of the Pleroma, along with Depth [Buthos]) and that the divine redeemer came forth from the Pleroma to earth for salvation. For these Gnostics, Christ really was the word that came forth from “Silence.” And so it would make good sense that his text was changed to avoid its misuse by Gnostics in support of their own doctrines.
That was argued by J. B. Lightfoot, a truly great scholar of the nineteenth century and arguably the most important scholar, ever, of the Apostolic Fathers. And today his views are widely accepted by specialists in the field.
But my bigger point is that someone producing an edition has to decide: which was the wording given to the text by the author himself, and which represents the change of this text? In this instance it matters a lot: the two readings are precisely contrary! Which way you gonna go?
Do you use any particular software for capturing research, organizing notes/references/etc.? For instance as you read new scholarly works, or as you prepare to write your next tradebook, etc.
Nope, nada. I take notes as Word files and put them in relevant sub-sub-sub-folders and that’s it. Everything else seems too fussy to me. I just want to read, take notes, store them away, read them later, with the ability to search.
Bart – I’m curious. The difference between “did not come out” (of silence) and “did come out” is only that “not” is missing. In English, “did come out” is emphatic, whereas “came out” would be the standard expression. In the Greek and/or the Armenian, does dropping the “not” make it emphatic or does it leave it saying simply that the word “came out” of silence.
In English “came out” sounds standard; “did come out” definitely sounds like someone else’s viewpoint is being rejected and argued against.
The text says “come out.” I use “did come out” just to emphasize the contrast.
Why does the wordplay in Matthew 1:21 Yeshua and Yoshia makes sense in Hebrew and not in Greek? Is it originally from Matthew which was originally in Greek?
I think the idea is that Christians reading this knew the meaning of Jesus’ name, or at least Matthew assumed they did. Probably the early Aramaic followers of Jesus were already pointing out the meaning of Yeshua to their converts, and it was simply one of those standard things that peole told others about *this* particular Jesus.
If the choice is between a version that *you know* was tampered with for polemical purposes (adding “not”)and the version you believe is *genuine* even if Gnostics may have used it to affirm their beliefs,is there really a question? Moreover,the Gnostics are no longer a rival of established Christendom today.
Also,it makes sense that this” Creation” moment should come from silence,akin to the idea of “ex nihilo”.
Speaking of translations,I’ve been reading a Syriac translation of the Gospels into Aramaic.Shame I left the tome in Israel.
The John passage (allegedly) containing “before Abraham, I AM”is,in theAramaic version”before Abraham,I WAS”.
I always believed that “I AM” is simply wrong.First,”I am” doesn’t exist in Hebrew. Second,”eheye”in Exodus isn’t “I am”,both for the first reason above and second,because the Exodus passage translates as”I will be”. “Eheye asher eheye” reads “whoever/whatever/wherever I may be”, or literally,”I will be whoever I will be”.
The entire passage then perfectly suits God telling Moses,in essence, “my name is none of your business”.
The third reason “I was” sounds true is obvious:it is correct,as the tenses are suited,”before” and ” I was”.Past tense,both. Logical,correct,meaningful,
without senseless added middrash such as a false connection with the Exodus passage. There’s no connection.
I guess the problem is that John was written in Greek, and in Greek EGO EIMI (I am, rather than EGO ĒN, I was) is what God says is his name to Moses in Exodus 3 in the *Septuagint*. The Hebrew is problematic, as you not, and translated in a variety of ways (e.g., I will be what I will be; I cause to be what I cause to be, etc).
Exodus 3:12.”I will be with you”. Unequivocally,”eheye imakh”.”I am” or “I cause to be” (there is no such expression in Hebrew,surely not in the HB)are the result of one mistranslation upon another. Moreover,even in modern Hebrew” eheye asher eheye” lends itself to “I will be whoever/whatever/wherever I will be”,or (my preferred one)”whoever I may be”.The idea is a possibly irksome “whatever!”,both replying to and evading Moses.
Question:what is your name? Answer(not even in Hebrew:) ” I cause to be…”.
*Never *does God refer to himself thus..
Anyway,the HB in Hebrew,it seems to me,means what it says in Hebrew,literally credible and still current in this case.
Therefore, the interpretation of John going to Moses through flawed Greek translations is not relevant. The Jews had heard enough to ( illegally)stone him,as he pretended to be older than Abraham,without mistranslating or misusing Exodus 3:14. Jesus could not have said,in Aramaic or Hebrew,” I am”or” I cause to be..”.He had no such language options.His claim was only being older than Abraham,not being God,not in that case, at least.Whatever it may say in Greek in the NT or in the Septuagint ( remember ” parthenos?”), what counts is what it says in Hebrew.
Ain’t it so?
I believe the hiphil in biblical Hebrew is often causative. It would mean that whatever I bring into being or whatever I choose to do is what I bring into being or cause to happen. It is sometimes taken to mean that God is the creator; or the one who intervenes in history; or so on. Lots of discussion of this in the scholarly literature, a you may imagine. The author of John, who did not know Aramaic or Hebrew, would not have known that EGO EIMI in his sense was not possible in either language. I.e., since John is written in Greek, it’s the Greek that matters if what you want is to understand John.
Finally,
would the said stone throwers in John have known Exodus 3:14?
Would Jesus have?
It would have taken a pedantic Pharisee or Scribe bent on confusing his ignorant audience to do that much scholarship ,and Jesus was the opposite of that.
Could God ever have said in Hebrew ” I am that I am”? Yes, but it would have been ” Ani asher ani”. Or ” Ani hu ani” , or ” Ani ani”.
“I am” in Hebrew can only be said thus. Just ” I”.
“I am Bart”, ” Ani Bart” אני בארט
God said ” Eheye”, I will be.
” I am that I am” is one of the worst distortions translators deduced from the HB, in spite of reason, context, likeliness,language knowledge. Just like Michelangelo’s Moses goat horns.
Or ” parthenos”! . How did *that* happen?
The assumption of the text is that that readers knew what the author was referring to. Whether they historically would or not, that’s another thing… Parthenos. Well the term usually referred to a woman of marriagable age who wasn’t married. Later it came to mean woman who never had sex. The Septuagint translators appear to ahve taken it in the first more common meaning; Matthew in the later one.
The infamous Rescript of Honorius (in which the emperor tells British cities to defend themselves because northern Italy is under assault by Alaric’s Visigoths in 410) has been proposed to contain a scribal error. Some have argued Honorius was addressing southern Italian cities, and a scribe erred in printing Brettania rather than Brettia. But Gildas also indicates Honorius abandoned Britain.
There is a fascinating article (Myres, Pelagius and the End of Roman Rule in Britain, The Journal of Roman Studies, 1960), arguing Pelagius’ ideas took hold in his native Britain. Myres argues that Pelagius’ condemnation of impossible laws (and the corresponding need for grace to be saved) was as much a political criticism as a theological one. He shows how early church lawbreakers (and Augustine) benefitted from a corrupt system in which intervention by a bishop was a form of grace that conferred clerical benefit. The author gives evidence for how Pelagian-thought might have enabled the Britons to throw out Constantine III’s magistrates. Zosimus documents thisrevolt (raising the intriguing question, did Rome jettison Britain, or did Britain actually jettison Rome?!). Myres also describes how it might have split aristocratic Romano-British families, fairly acknowledging Pelagianism was probably most popular among the upper-class.
Interesting. Thanks.
I’ve heard it said about Ignatius as well that he was a disciple of John son of Zebedee. Any evidence of this claim? Why are Apostolic church fathers being connected to John son of Zebedee as opposed any of the other disciples of Jesus?
There’s nothing much to go on with that one.
Bart, I’ve watched debates posted on your you tube channel where you raise this exact point in discussing the inerrancy or inspiration of the New Testament. As you say above, your opponent usually says we have many more copies of the New Testament than any other ancient author (Cicero, Homer, Julius Caesar, Plato, etc), why aren’t we applying the same scrutiny to them as the New Testament? And you reply of course we DO apply the same historical scrutiny.
It’s seems to me that an immediate obvious corollary point would be this: no one is claiming that these other authors are the inerrant, inspired word of God. If, say, two manuscripts of Tacitus contain different information about a battle, that’s just a single historical detail at play, it doesn’t have grand implications of a deep claim of divine inspiration about the text itself.
To my knowledge, you never seem to take this tact as a follow up with this topic? Is this deliberate on your part for some reason of the scope of the debate in question, or the limits of historical scholarship, etc? My apologies if I’m mistaken on any of the above.
Ah, you’re absolutely right, that shows why the question is important. But it doesn’t relate to the question of whether scholars do examine these other texts the same way. The do. You’re right, though, it would be useful to point out that they do even though the inerrancy of the text is never at issue so there aren’t the same stakes.
giselebendor you write:
Could God ever have said in Hebrew ” I am that I am”? Yes, but it would have been ….
Is it not the case that God never said anything, not in Hebrew, or Aramaic or Greek and everything written down as having been said by God is only determined first by the imagination of the writer and then by his writing skills, and is that not also the case with subsequent translations? Since we do not even have the original of the first author what is there to prove? Where can we possible get to with this inquiry?
Thank you for a reply.
Well, in my case, since I don’t believe there is a God, I certainly don’t think God has ever said anything. But I also don’t think having the original of what one or another author wrote would have any bearing on the qeustion….
giselebendor said: “Is it not the case that God never said anything, not in Hebrew, or Aramaic or Greek and everything written down as having been said by God is only determined first by the imagination of the writer and then by his writing skills, and is that not also the case with subsequent translations? Since we do not even have the original of the first author what is there to prove? Where can we possible get to with this inquiry?”
It qualifies one for grants, and speaking engagements. It also sells books.
BDEhrman said: “since I don’t believe there is a God”
As learned and skillful with the word as Ehrman is, his wisdom cannot give him eyes to see. Unbelief locks one out of spiritual discernment; sort of like having an ailment that prevents one from tasting the food they’re eating.
The church has so twisted our view of Yahweh Yahweh Elohim that who would want to believe in their version of god? I’m amazed that any truly believe.
Self sustaining life. It isn’t very difficult to believe the possibility that it exists, and that it created all which we see and understand.
As you probably know, I was a very committed believer for many years, and I would bet my view of God was not much different from what yours is now! I agree, though, most people in the church have a very peculiar view of God indeed.
Thank you for your considered reply. I was indoctrinated into the Pentecostal faith when I was 17. It was not until about 30 years later, when I bought a ton of books (BDB, TWOT, BFS) and etc., that I began to understand that their faith was actually just superstition. I’ve been free ever since to think and reason for myself, and decide if and what I believe. Your writings have helped much in that regard.
“Linguistics & Biblical Interpretation”, by Peter Cotterell & Max Turner was my salient point.
Hi Dr. Ehrman, I’ve been reading your book on heaven and hell. What do you say when scholars like Dr. Jason Staples say that we all get what we deserve when someone asked him about his view on hell? He gets me nervous like hell is real or something. I also read on his blog that he says that Paul wasn’t preaching an imminent return of Jesus.
As you may know, he was my student. 🙂 I’d agree that the NT maintains we get what we deserve. But in the NT, no one gets “hell,” if by that we mean “eternal torment. And he probably does say that about Paul. It’s a highly unusual view for a critical scholar, but unusual views exist in the world!
Thanks. It just gets me nervous if he believes in eternal torment. It’s like I don’t know who right especially when it comes to what Paul believed about Jesus’s return. Maybe I get nervous because of Dr. staples being a Christian but also a critical scholar.
Old beliefs die hard.
Bart, question: the Armenian version says, “Did come forth out of silence” … am I incorrect in thinking that sounds like the views of Arianism?…the Father’s first creation as an utterance…the Word, Wisdom…hmm.
I suppose it could be read to support an Arian view, yes. But it was floating around before there was Arianism, and as I say in my post, it probably was the original reading (going back to Ignatius himself). In a paper I wrote once but never published I argued that scribes changed it because it had dangerously *Gnostic* overtones (since “Silence” was one of the aeons inthe Pleroma).