Loading...There is always a lot of suffering going on around us, if not in our neighborhood then certainly in our country, not to mention our world. Now more then ever. And more obviously than ever. But the “ever” itself is really very bad, when you think of the millions being slaughtered in civil war and unrest, driven from their homes, starving, dying of curable disease for want of medicine or from lack of clean water, etc. etc. etc.
But it’s on our minds right now more than ever, between a worldwide pandemic and a national recognition of deeply rooted and massive racial violence and injustice. Suffering is always there, but now it is all we are talking about.
I was browsing through old posts on the blog and came across this one I wrote eight years ago. As some of you know, one of my books, God’s Problem, deals with the problem of why there is suffering. In it I examine what different biblical authors have to say about it to show that they represent many different views, some of them at odds with one another. I also evaluate the views to some extent and, most controversially, as it turns out, explain why the problem itself and the inadequate answers to it (not just in the Bible but generally) eventually is what led me to lose my faith.
After my book came out I had a number of public debates on the topic. In this post (slightly edited and updated) I discuss an intriguing argument that my opponents frequently used those debates,
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In two of my debates, one with the “Messianic-Jewish Apologist” Michael Brown (whom I had never heard of before, but who was a remarkably good debater) and with the conservative Christian Dinesh D’Souza (whom I had heard of before, loud and clear, and who is also a remarkably good debater), I have been confronted with a point that, in both instances, my opponents thought was a decisive strike against me. My views of suffering are not shared by the people who, unlike me, actually suffer.
It’s an interesting point. To explain it, and my response to it, I need to say a few words about the context of these debates. The topic of my debates on the problem of suffering is never whether or not there is suffering. Luckily. Everyone (at least everyone I debate, and most everyone who listens to the debates) agrees that there is suffering. The question at stake is whether it makes sense to believe in God given the nature and extent of suffering in the world.
In these debates I never …
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A beautifully written article Mr Ehrman, thank you for sharing it with us!
I wanted to ask if you were planning on justifying just one sentence in the last paragraph, maybe in a future post?
You said ‘My ultimate view is that even if suffering may lead us away from a belief in God, as it did for me, it should at the same time lead us toward humility in the face of the universe and toward a more caring, loving attitude toward those who suffer.’
I guess I didn’t see in your article a clear explanation for why suffering should lead towards the things you mention. I do not think you are wrong, but it would be good to have it rationed out, as I think this is the only place you make a claim without any evidence.
Unless of course you are just talking about yourself, but even then, it would still be interesting to know WHY you list and believe those things to be what suffering moves you towards.
I hope that doesn’t come across rude at all.
Thank you for all you write and share – it makes my day every time I see a post come up 🙂
Ah, right! OK, I’ll add it to my list of things to post on!
Thank you Bart – you are an incredibly generous man 🙂
Right on, the church is often a collection of survivors but many others have fallen away because their God did not or could not give them an understandable explanation for what was happening in their lives. I also wonder about those who give Jesus so much credit for suffering for less than 24 hours, while many people in this world suffer worse things for much longer. Yet in orthodox Christianity their suffering counts for nothing, and if they don’t come to have the right belief values they are going to suffer even more after death. It’s a bizarre and cruel belief system, which as you say is often very dismissive of very real suffering in the world.
well.. you have to understand what the bible teaches about Jesus’ purpose to understand what he suffered in those 24 hours. Heb 4:15 “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities…” There is no human that has been to the depths of despair and suffering. Therefore he can personally identify with all suffering.
Bart, I’d just like to add this perspective. If there is a benevolent God of agency in the universe, a God that is pro-life and anti-suffering, why would the universe be so “god awfully” hostile to life? As far as we can tell, little Edens like earth are incredibly rare in the universe. That can be explained by God’s unique special interest in us and us only within our vast universe(biblical view). Or, it can be explained more logically it seems to me by the fact that despite incredible odds the exact right set of circumstances arose to create life on earth. If there were a God of both interest and agency in the universe, wouldn’t it make more sense for life to be abundant? Does it make sense that God would create a universe of conspicuous violence at almost every turn, bathed in life denying high energy cosmic rays? I don’t think so. The counter intuitiveness of a life affirming God creating such a non-life affirming universe is what has most strongly persuaded me to no longer believe in that type of God.
Yup, that would have to be answered. Of course, those with answers could answer it. (It’s not God’s fault but the Devil’s; or sin’s; or free will’s; or tectonic plates….)
Suffering is experienced by all human beings, and all animals and perhaps all creation. Suffering is not simply pain. It is anquish. It is loneliness. It is unsatisfied greed. It is anything that keeps us from getting what we want. It is NOT up to God to protect us from suffering. It is we who can keep ourselves from suffering by changing our attitudes toward that which causes us to suffer. We cause ourselves to suffer. I think you gave up your belief in God for the wrong reasons. It is not God who causes us to suffer; it is we who cause ourselves to suffer.
I have a hard time accepting the comments, “It is we who can keep ourselves from suffering…” and “it is we who cause ourselves to suffer.” A great deal of suffering is caused by humans or is contributed to by human action or inaction. However, there is much of suffering where human agency plays no part. This was particularly the case for a large amount of human history where we had much less control over the environment and it’s impact on us.
Maybe you are proposing a form of stoicism in the face of suffering. If so, I would address it differently.
You obviously don’t believe in the Bible where it said that God caused inflictions on people. Or that all of us are suffering due to that “fruit”Adam ate, even though those alive today had nothing to do with that.
But if God can create a heaven as described in the Bible without suffering, then of course God is responsible for suffering. He could have created a world without suffering but chose to create one with it. If he’s “in charge” and could have done it differently he’s responsible.
I am curious to know if you ever passed through deism on the way to agnosticism and atheism. I get that it’s difficult to believe in a god at work in the world while there is so much suffering, even though most of it is caused by us and perfectly possible to eliminate in large measure by us. As a scientist I marvel daily at the beauty and complexity of the universe from the largest galactic clusters to the smallest subatomic particle. This universe produced beings who can contemplate their own existence! While I cannot prove the existence of a higher power, I find it impossible to believe that this whole thing, existence itself, is purposeless. I suppose in the end it is a search for meaning.
Yes, I had a short period of considering it, but it never worked for me. I too marvel at the beauty of it all. But I also realize that since I’m *part* of it all it’s not surprising that I’m amazed at it all; someone not part of it all might have a different opinion. We’ll never know! But how we came out of non-existence and then out of non-living, yikes — obviously these are issues people like you deal with, directly or indirectly for a living. I am spending LOTS of time thinking about the phenomenon of “consciousness” these days….
Ah, there you go. That’s really at the bottom of everything, isn’t it? – At least as far as questioning existential matters. Then there is the question of the difference between animal consciousness and human consciousness. And how memory works (or doesn’t). In fact, how everything in the body works. And whether or not mathematics is a thing or just a construct of our minds. You and I are about the same age, and for myself, I need another thousand years of life to understand all these things and a hundred others. My son lives in Durham and one of these days when I visit him, I will take you out for a beer or six and we can solve all this…
Even if one grants that suffering sometimes brings people closer to their God, it still remains insufficient as a justification for said suffering being allowed by said God.
If you say “I DO NOT LOVE God because He allows suffering” then I can understand that. But if you say “I don’t BELIEVE in God because because he allows suffering” then that’s a different proposition. Because the God of the bible did not say there would not be suffering – in fact this God BROUGHT suffering to people.
I had a Jewish friend who endured a German concentration camp. She would ask, “Where WAS He?” concerning God. And yes, the Jews suffered – exiled from their nation, driven out of 120 or more countries and enduring pogroms, crusades, genocides and the like. But Jesus wept for these people and Jerusalem, He was weeping for their suffering and exile.
As I see it, the point of life isn’t about this earth but about eternity.If you have no concept of eternity then it isn’t God which is problematic, but life itself.
I would never say I do not believe in God because he allows suffering.
Some evangelicals tell me that all the evil in the world is perpetrated by Satan (“The Devil made me do it”).But as the book of Job implies Satan (here not the Prince of Evil but rather one of God”s counselors) can only do evil if God gives his permission. If God allows Satan to do evil things then God is ultimately responsible for them if He is all-powerful and could have prevented them. But why would God consent to untold suffering on the part of his creatures?
A test (ala) Abraham?
Suffering is at the heart of the “problem of evil” but is also a problem in other areas. Why must sin be paid for with suffering? Could not an omniscient God come up with a better way to educate us and inspire us not cause suffering in others? Why was Jesus suffering for our sins an acceptable solution? Did God just require a certain amount of suffering and didn’t care who did the suffering? And, as you’ve addressed, how is an infinite amount of suffering in hell for a finite amount of sin in any way fair or just?
The suggestion that suffering is good for us sure falls apart when considering things like childhood cancer and natural disasters. There are far better ways to learn lessons than by seeing others suffer. And lessons like “life is hard” and “death comes to us all” are unnecessarily imposed on us by God.
D’Souza and Brown’s point is a bit strange. People who observe suffering in others can suffer themselves in the act of being aware (not to suggest the scale is the same). I like your point that our own beliefs are not determined by the beliefs of others.
One could also point out they too are talking about those suffering in extremis when they, like me, are not….
As you said in your account, you already know all (or almost all) the arguments against what we might call “agnostic thinking regarding the existence of God”, but it is evident that this refers to a very particular concept of God. I think that the “God of the Bible” is a variable interpretation of God, a rather institutionalized God, a God who lives in a distant place, very remote and difficult to access, a God of sacrifices and pain, that is actually departs from what God really is
Bart
Thank you for the free access to your blog during the Coronavirus crisis (which thankfully looks like it’s reaching an end in site – my pastor said that God could stop Covid 19 in an instant if he wanted – so why hasn’t he?! LOL)
I’m seriously considering subscribing – I find your work fascinating and your thunderous debates on youtube are a joy to watch. You’ve really opened my eyes on so many levels. But even though I know you’re right and speak the truth, I still have a great affinity for the teachings of the gospels – and whether mostly fiction or partly true, they are close to my heart.
I think you have gone through a fascinating transformation in your life – and the inner conflict you’ve had mirrors a lot of us who are trying to wed religion to the rational side of our being.
I hope you and yours stay safe and well
Toby
Definitely you should subscribe! It will help stimulate your thoughts and you’ll be giving money to help those in need. What could be better?
I am a new member, but almost read all your books, the newest bought but not yet finished. I experienced similar deconversion as you, Ehrman. What I want to add to your views is my experience on 11/5/2008, the day before Sichuan earthquake which caused 20,000 to 100,000 deaths. On that day, my family joined a global prayer meeting in a Coliseum, that meeting later on was claimed to have gathered almost 150 million Christians all over the world, of course in different place. When I left the meeting, I prayed to God, Why didn’t You appear and illuminate us a bit, we are SO MANY LA! Next day the disaster came, later on, my wife, a medical worker volunteered for a service of 5 years to help those amputated ones….Say that just because we thought we need to involve in the question asked to God. From that time on, my view of God changed astronomically, 150 million prayers didn’t change His plan of disaster, 150 million prayers could not make Him move forward a bit to say something. So, the direct thought is either He does not exist or it is our delusion of what God is.
Wow. That’s quite a story. Many thanks for sharing it.
Does the lack of goodness in the world make us more, or less, aware and appreciative of goodness wherever we find it? More, or less, aware of evil in the world? That seems to be the fundamental question at stake here. One does not need to believe in God to be appreciative of goodness, and ultimately to be good. We should think more about how to bring more goodness into the world. To argue there is a God despite the lack of goodness in the world seems to miss the point entirely.
I think your first couple of questions depend entirely on the individual and their attitude towards life. In reality, there’s no lack of goodness in the world, just as there’s no lack of evil in it. And I don’t think this is the fundamental question.
You’re correct that one doesn’t need to believe in Gd to appreciate goodness or ultimately be good. However, the tricky thing isn’t motivation, but **justification**. You say “we should think more about how to bring more goodness into the world”. I agree, but why should we? This isn’t a hard question to answer; any justification is fine enough (including none at all!), but the **problem** arises when another “should” shows up in direct opposition to your “should” (i.e. they are mutually exclusive). How are we to adjudicate these “shoulds”? So really, it’s not justification we’re concerned about, but **ultimate justification** (i.e. valid justification for morality). Without ultimate justification, life devolves into a battle of wills; there’s no ***objective*** right or wrong.. just what each and every one of us thinks is right and wrong. The logical conclusion: ***anything is ultimately permissible*** because there’s no valid justification for a morality of any kind.
Bart, you said “It was my deep angst in the face of suffering that led me to conclude that there is not an all powerful and all loving God who is actively involved in this world.” Reminds me of my dad, a Jewish atheist, who said, I don’t believe in God, and if he exists I don’t want to meet the son-of-bitch.” Knowing what he had gone through growing up without a father and then living through the holocaust, I’ve always thought that this was a perfectly legitimate theology. I myself have concluded that God does exist, but she isn’t all powerful. I prefer to think of a loving but relatively weak deity rather than a strong one who allows/causes such evil to exist. A universe with no deities is OK with me too. Well… maybe I should say it’s OK with me that people think that way. And you are a fine teacher either way. My Bible group thinks so too [all firm believers BTW].
Thanks. Somehow I think your particular Bible group is not located in the Southern Baptist church near me….
totally understand and agree with your views and it constantly amazes me how many people think or actually “know” the Christian god exists, many thinking “he” is a loving and forgiving god.( that must be why we have st judes and shriners hospitals for children, both of which I donate to) these people have never given a thought to how the culture they happen to be born into nearly always sets their faith, or have no idea how they happen to be protestant rather than catholic(they may have a vague idea who martin luther was) or how horrible their history has been(like isis for 1500 years) thankfully we live in a time of very soft Christianity and do not get burned at the stake or stoned. and while I know there are many very good Christians there are also tremendous numbers of hypocrites, nor do they ever think of their god (if bible stories were all true) as the most prodigious abortionist ever. by the way what is a miscarriage if not a naturally aborted fetus(a bit more suffering for many), and all those starving children, well they are a long way away and we can pray for them
We all suffer. It would appear that life on earth is a struggle for survival. We all know humans suffer terribly from natural disasters, ravages of war, starvation, pandemics, disease… Animals and wildlife also suffer. Cats are large carnivores that hunt, kill and eat elephant calves, pigs, moose, and other large prey. Animals suffer and inflict suffering on others. Suffering is all around. Is it right to eat the flesh of animals that have been killed? I guess that is the way life has evolved.
If the Earth was created by God – it looks like a bungled job to me.
We can respond to the suffering by trying to help others by supporting the work of charities (such as this blog) that alleviate suffering.
Two years ago a friend of mine wanted to attend an Alpha course run by a local church, but didn’t want to go alone and so asked me to also attend. Alpha courses combine videos and discussions to introduce people to the Christian faith. It was a strange request to make for a 73 year old humanist. I switched off during the gushy videos, but enjoyed the dialogue with these sincere, country Christians. We had more in common than that which separated us. Suffering was part of the sales pitch: that Christ could act as a balm to suffering, and that begs the question: would we have these forms of sacred belief if there was no suffering to heal? That there’s a dependency here.
Dr Ehrman
Although there is suffering in life, human beings are mostly responsible for it. Blessings are not. There are more blessings than suffering. One can not count the blessings we have…. its infinite. . .
Humans are born pure. They are not born racist and evil, it is home grown and manifested by humans.
Was there suffering in the time of Jesus….or during Old Testament times? Well obviously yes. Disease would likely have been more common, natural disasters even less avoidable, and wars bloodier. So as Christianity started and grew, there would have been no expectation that God intervened daily to pick winners….or losers….based on some assessment of righteousness. John the Baptist, Paul, and Peter weren’t spared suffering because they were “holy”…or righteous. So suffering could simply be understood to be part of the human condition and living in the physical world….while God is most concerned about our eternal soul. I think the idea that God MUST act is built into us as human….just like our other natural instincts.
Now personally my problem is more with the idea that God had to sacrifice himself to himself to open up the gates of His realm that He ostensibly controls to pay for our sinful human nature that He alone created and knew from the start…if He is in fact all knowing. The arbitrary or random interdiction in human affairs is certainly curious….but in my mind requires a lot of gymnastics to even get there
I am a pastor. As such, I’ve dealt with a lot of people searching for comfort and a sense of support in times of adversity. I’ve also witnessed firsthand, deeply grieving people that receive platitudes and unempathetic bible quotations from those that should be there to help instead of hurt. This is the paradox of the Church. On the one hand, there is need to believe in something bigger, that is in your corner, for a significant portion of humanity. Without it, these people fall into despair, a sense of futility, and even bitterness. It is the exceptional person that is mentally, emotionally, and spiritually mature enough to face a godless universe without such negative responses. On the other hand, too many religious institutes, that such people turn to, are more interested in correction and control of thoughts and behaviors based on dogma, than in seeing and meeting needs of the infirm (bodily, spiritually, emotionally, resource-wise) where they are. My belief in a loving and beneficent Creator, in spite of unexplained suffering, is key to my being able to help such people while aiding them in shedding harmful religious traditions. A crutch? Some need crutches.
Could you go in to detail on why you think free will exists (assuming you do)? I have watched a few of your debates and read your book on the problem of evil. Is it because you believe Christians would be more receptive to your arguments and not reject you outright if you assume free will exists? I read Harris’ book on free will and he makes some strong arguments. In my view, I see free will as some magical thing ascribed to people to justify why they deserve their punishments or rewards in life. Also, would you label yourself as a determinist, compatibilist, or libertarian with respect to free will? Thanks!
I have changed my views of free will, not so much because of Harris, though some of his comments have given me pause. My view is that on some level we have very LIMITED free will, and it is not clear we have even that. But no one who thinks hard about it can say we are completely free. The vast majority of what we do — or what, say, our bodies and minds do — has nothing to do with our own volition. You can decide to lift your arm but you can’t decide to make your liver work more efficiently. Do we even control our minds? A good case can be made that the answer is no. BUT, I function as IF I had free will, since the alternative is massively unpleasant and unproductive. maybe I’ll post on that as an amateur.
General Relativity, a VERY successful and VERY well verified theory, gives us a picture of the universe that is absolutely determined. Spacetime in GR has been likened to a “block”, and in fact, cosmologists routinely refer to a “block universe”, in which all events, past, present, future, are static features in a frozen 4-dimensional structure. Not much room for free will there. Of course, we are embedded in that block. The mystery of consciousness might have something to do with our perception of change, when, in fact, there is no change. Very mysterious!
I don’t think I completely agree. There are lots of options for how the whole thing will shape up in, say, a hundred trillion years; it’s not already determined. There are tons of disagreements among physcists…
As someone even more of an amateur than you, I can’t reconcile free will with an omniscient god.
Me: I just did something that no one would have ever expected me to do.
God: I knew you were going to do that.
And, repeat.
I remember several decades ago that Cardinal O’Connor said that the Jews had “a special gift of suffering” (not an exact quote) to give the world, and the outcry (from me as from many many others). I find that part of the problem is that Christianity’s foundational principle is that Jesus’s suffering leads to our salvation, so they cannot deny that God is responsible for (some of) the suffering of the world.
The question of suffering acting as a lead component in your trajectory away from theism was always interesting to me. I should think that many people need only a clear understanding of history as it outlines the creations of religions to start veering away from a belief system. One thing that’s never been made clear to me is the limitations you would impose on God being good and all powerful. Isn’t it reflective of, at least an Old Testament God, to be jealous? Oppressive? Wouldn’t it be more correct to say you stopped believing in the kind of God you expected or hoped to be God?
On one level, yes. I stopped believing in a God who was active in any way in the world. But I never did believe in any other kind of God, and now continue to think that none of these other kinds of God exists at all.
I agree, both Brown and D’Souza are excellent debaters. It’s the only times Bart, especially with Dinesh, where your body language suggested you were thinking more to their responses. I need to post two threads to respond. I am also like you,Bart, where the suffering and God’s existence don’t compute. I married a woman who comes from poverty and is * always* more internally satisfied than I. She is a believer,like your wife, and deals with challenges affirmative. We have four children together, our second was diagnosed with a rare malignant cancer at age five. I, too, was angry with God, but, I realized this is the hand I/we were dealt and started to face the pain. That boy, became our strength for hope. His courage to endure all of the procedures he was put through, two and half years of chemo everyday( 3-5 type/day), a dozen blood/platelets transfusions, countless blood work, reaction to chemo, severe at times where I thought we would loose him, became a beacon for our life. He changed us (me) forever. I am a skeptic, but truthfully, my wife was a lot stronger than I was during this ordeal……
If we suffer we would like our suffering to mean something. For that matter, we would all like our lives to mean something. Unfortunately, what we might like and what we might want have nothing to do with anything, have no bearing on anything, and have no influence on anything except, perhaps, our own feelings. This is not to say that our lives are in fact meaningless, or that suffering is in fact meaningless. It’s just that our feelings about such things, and our judgement about such things, have no bearing on the question of meaning or lack of it, in some wider context. And I think a desire for a wider context, for something above and beyond the merely personal, is what most of us are looking for. Whether there is such a context– well, who knows??
….to the point on suffering.1) Dinesh’s meaning of the fall and the Garden of Eden is powerful. I cannot do justice to it’s message in this thread, listen to it. The perfect world we desire today was given but rejected.I agree with Dinesh, that if given the choice again we would reject it once more. 2) Dinesh also suggested the world we inherited, came will all the problems of suffering and pain and natural occurrences. God also gave us solutions to deal with it, like science and medicine. If he intervened and corrected all of our pain and suffering the meaning of good and choice would seize to exist . Again, Eden we rejected. Pride is our enemy. Peter Singer of Princeton said on poverty,” When one is already living comfortably, a further purchase to increase comfort will lack the same moral importance as saving another person’s life”. Questions Bart, 1) Are we in possession of adequate facts where we can say God could of done better? 2) Brown stated in his closing argument, with all the books you have written on these subjects, is the message of altruism and humility exemplified by your teaching?
1. No, I don’t think so, because I don’t think there is a God who could have done better. But if there was a God who really was powerful, yes, of course he could have done better. Look around! 2. I don’t know. It’s kind of like asking whether Moses could have written the Pentateuch in light of the verse that says that Moses was the most humble man ever to have lived.
1) well according to the Bible, yes! God has a heaven which is so perfect. So if he can create such a place certainly suffering is not necessary for people to “stay good”. So if the Bible is evidence, certainly God can do better. Do you think people will be rejecting heaven and leaving there as well? If people are staying in heaven and not rejecting it, then obviously God can not only create a perfect place but a place where people would stay by free will.
Has the view that God is not omnipotent ever had any significant support among Christians? Or not omniscent?
It’s sometimes represented, but is always a marginal view — depending on how one defines “omnipotent” (can he make a square round?) and omniscient.
If I remember Darwin’s “Origin of Species” correctly, I think Darwin’s view was that it was hard to believe in a God who allowed the creation of an organism that causes blindness in children.
I’ve endured plenty of suffering my life, though I’m in a relatively good place now. I don’t see a connection between God and suffering, it seems pretty random.
I do know that when I was a Christian, prayer, whether in good times or bad, made no change in my life. This is what led me to seek a lot more knowledge about the origins of Christianity.
Ultimately, Jesus was not the messiah he promised to be within his followers’ lifetime. He offered nothing else new to the Jews they didn’t already have.
This was the last straw to my faith.
Did it not effect your former faith at all? If not, why?
It certainly affected my faith, but it made me retranslate it and undrstand it at a different level rather than leave it. Leaving came only when teh problem of suffering made me doubt the very existence of God.
In a Christian fundamentalist matrix, with an extraterrestrial God and extraterrestrial divine beings that set the stage for human beings, the answer to suffering must come only from the outside or nothing.
Lifting above this narrow matrix, and just imagine for a moment that religions and esoteric teachings in even the Middle East religion were right, that the divine spirit is still in us, where we are co-creators in a divine consciousness (Christian, Jewish, Muslim esoteric and religions as Hinduism and Buddhism etc.) , we become a part of the problem. The same ideas about consciousness(es) as above are embraced by science – quantum physics.
Assuming we as partakers, there are at least enormous amount of suffering we by choice and willingness could do something about. One “small” example (dealing millions of suffering) is public Healthcare in wealthy countries. Norway offers free health care to everyone for almost the same tax subsidy as the United States (but they have also insurance) adjusted for standard of living, and the United States does not have tens of millions. Again, and again, A LOT can be done by choices and willingness, and we are to blame, or can do/help the situation.
Not that it adds anything substantial to the discussion – just thought I’d share some of Neil Peart’s words in one of the songs on the final studio album of the progressive rock band Rush. Neil was the unlikely combination of a philosopher and rock drummer, and experienced more than his share of suffering before his untimely death from brain cancer earlier this year. Anyway, his lyrics have always meant a lot to me at various low points in my own life. Here he doesn’t pretend to have any answers, just ruminations:
The Garden
Rush
In this one of many possible worlds
All for the best or some bizarre test?
It is what it is and whatever
Time is still the infinite jest
The arrow flies when you dream
The hours tick away, the cells tick away
The Watchmaker keeps to his schemes
The hours tick away, they tick away
The measure of a life is a measure of love and respect
So hard to earn, so easily burned
In the fullness of time
A garden to nurture and protect…
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Geddy Lee / Alex Lifeson / Neil Elwood Peart
The Garden lyrics © Ole Media Management Lp
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Hi, from Seville, Spain. I completely agree with you about the problem of evil. It has haunted me since I was young. I’ve read and searched in almost all fields (I.e. philosophy, psychology, theology and world religions) in order to understand why an almighty, omniscient and good God did created such a hell of suffering. Though I think there must be some kind of origin, I’ve become quite skeptical about the Christian god of goodness. It makes nonsense given all that humanity had to go through since they’re walking on the surface of the earth. I prefers the god Shiva’s theology in which he is depicted as creator- destructor. Be it as it may, thank you for this well made blog.
Wow ! Such good reading and discussion. The philosophical problem of evil has been a big issue with me also. Maybe God is not all that good nor all powerful as some think. ( I may have to answer to that statement one day). And I think that non-existence would have been much better. In the meantime try to eliminate as much suffering as I can with prayer, money, and donating time. I feel guilty at times because I do not suffer enough thru self sacrifice to help as much as I could..
I thought that I had read all your books until you mentioned “Didymus the Blind and the Text of the Gospels”. I will order it soon.
Thank you
Ha! I wouldn’t suggest reading that one. And if you don’t know Greek — well, forget it!
Samuel P. Putnam’s poem “Why Don’t He Lend a Hand” came to mind as I read your good blog. It is at http://wordofman.blogspot.com/2010/01/why-dont-he-lend-hand.html . And it has a constructive ending.
Thank you for this article. It was thought provoking. Having suffered because of a birth defect, I remember shouting to god in my younger years, and I always struggled with faith. I get the things that many flavors of Christianity teach – free will, suffering of god-in-the-flesh, value of suffering and hope, etc. I tried to rationalize all of it as I also have a scientific background – have faith, ’till work out in the end. Ultimately, I concluded that shouting at god was and is a waste of ruach. What did it? ‘Twas the suffering of children at the hands of god’s clergy, suffering of children in violent domestic situations, wondering why god would let millions of his people die in the Holocaust and let millions of Orthodox Christians be exterminated by the Soviets, Turks killing Christians, and don’t forget those poor children of the Zika virus. Why would god allow that to happen to his faithful? Then again, god of the Old Testament is a mean character, so perhaps if there is a god, he is capricious and likes suffering.
Hi Bart – new to the blog and really enjoying it. I wanted to post in response to this “ suffering” topic and offer a different perspective. Although the feeling is widespread among most people that “it’s never been this bad” or “the world is ready to end,” the facts don’t actually support that view. If you take a longer view, perhaps a generation’s worth not to mention a few hundred years, human kind is incredibly better off. Billions have been lifted out of poverty in just the last generation. And virtually every aspect of the quality of life for most of us – lifespan, health, happiness, crime rates, education of women, etc – has vastly improved. It’s just that humans have a negativity bias and of course our daily news is generally negative.
Two recent books that present this evidence are “Factfulness” by Hans Rosling and “Enlightenment Now” by Steven Pinker. Both excellent books. They’re not saying we don’t still have problems- we obviously do – but keeping the longer picture in view and realizing that we CAN improve the world, helps us stay motivated and can keep us from getting depressed!
I disagree. Without evil there could be no good. We learn to love through our own personal experiences of pain, suffering, and death. Our personal experiences of them ln ourselves or in the lives of a member of our social circle teaches us compassion and sympathy for others experiencing the same thing. Compassion and sympathy teach us to care about even those outside of our own social circle. And truly caring about others leads to true selfless love of all.
But what about the people who are actually experiencing this suffering? IF our true nature is as I believe that of immortal spiritual beings in the image and likeness of God, then what we call the temporary physical reality is only an illusion or a dream. If this is the case than as with any of our dreams or illusions, no one has ever suffered and no one has ever truly died. Our TRUE nature only gains from the experience. It is ALL about our learning to truly love so that we can be one with Him who IS love.
My view is that this would be hard for me as a happy and healthy and well off cultured person to explain to someone who was in an impoverished situation with a disease leaving them in permanent agony and starving to death. If everyone were like *me* and had only minor sufferings, rather than constant and insoluble suffering in extremis, then the problem of suffering really wouldn’t be a problem for me, and I could encourage people just to realize that it doesn’t much matter…..
I agree the true suffering does exist in the physical realm, and yes it is devastating to many of those who are experiencing it. Sometimes the greater the suffering the more it stirs someone to act, and it does stir me to my roots. But is its God’s job to stop suffering or is it ours? Much, not all, of the suffering is caused by man’s greed as well as his waste. Even many of the things we call “acts of God” such as hurricanes, tornados, even droughts are caused by the acts of man in destroying our environment. I think it is admirable that you support a number of philitrophic causes, but unfortunately you are in the small minority of people who apparently do care.
Learning to care and learning to love selflessly is what I firmly believe it the purpose for the physical realm. It is our task, not God’s. As I said acting lovingly because you have been programmed to do it is not love. WE have to come to that on our own. And we have the complete free will here to do so or not. In our true spiritual reality no one has ever suffered or died.
I don’t know if Mr. D’Souza is a good debater, but I have seen some of his postings on Twitter, and I find them remarkably dishonest. Then, if a “big fish”, say a university professor, should dispute what he says, he challenges them to a live debate, for which, of course, he expects to get paid for. I don’t know what he actually believes, but I think he is in it for the money.
HI Bart.
“It was my deep angst in the face of suffering that led me to conclude that there is not an all powerful and all loving God who is actively involved in this world.”
What was the one word you used to describe the roman empire at the time of Jesus? What did you say Christianity introduced?
There is a saying ” you can’t see the forest for the trees” God is soooo good.
Your theological paradigm came to its conclusion. Time for a revelation and the scales will fall off.
Thanks for your work and open thoughts. Good stuff!
Roman empire. Don’t know. Uh, big? And Xty introduced lots of things!
oh sorry!.. roman = domination xty = concern (for poor less fortunate)
Hypothesis: cultures that change for the better (as defined by bible) change because of xty….direct intervention of god! Parable of mustard seed!
another question for you If the Romans could forsake Jupiter and accept Christ at the rate of 4% a year why isn’t this enough evidence of gods direct intervention in the world for you?
I don’t understand your question. Are you saying if people change their views about something over time then the best explanation is divine intervention? I certainly don’t think that about the spread of capitalism, or the rise of Islam, or … or of anything else that caught on over time. but there are even bigger problems with thinking it for the spread of Xty. That’s what my book Triumph of Xty is about.
In my scientific (biological) view, having hope under a suffering situation may be a natural self-protective psychological mechanism. There are many similar self-protective responses to various forms of stress. When you have physical stress, the brain secretes endorphin to fight against pain. When a child is severely abused by their parents, they dissociate the abused self from themselves having multiple identities. And so-called Placebo effect is highly relevant to the hope. If you “believe” that a drug or health supplement will improve your health, that usually ends up statistically significant improvement of your health compared to doing nothing. Just like having a proven effective drug albeit at less extent.
So it could be a very natural and practically beneficial type of response to have hope and/or psychological justification through belief in Christian God during suffering.