Loading...Here are now some more “agrapha” (sayings of Jesus not found in any of the surviving Gospels; I say more about “agrapha” in the previous post). These ones are found in writings of church fathers, who appear to have had access to Gospels unavailable to us, or at least to have heard non-canonical sayings of Jesus in some other way. (You will be able to find info on each church father/writing mentioned pretty easily online)
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Other “Unknown” Sayings of Jesus
April 13, 2024
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Dr. Ehrman when is your next to trip to Turkey or Greece? I want to go. I will buy ticket before they sell out.
None planned just now!
Understood. I will monitor the blog if you have any trips to these locations. I have never been to either. I’m actually excited about the idea of traveling and talking about GOD.
I often wonder how much of Jesus’ teachings were cleaned up (improved?) or edited out by the gospel authors. Maybe many of these more obscure teachings really do go back to Jesus. Perhaps Jesus was more like Chauncey in Being There, uttering inane phrases that got spun into profound teachings? Maybe not that far, but I do suspect there was some useful editing going on.
u know better. doubtful but if the scriptures were copied according to the holy spirit’s promptings, the editors would smooth that away to his desire.
Watchman Nee and most other writers or speakers have vastly editted manuscripts.
as for the current Watchman Nee “books” are all translations from notes of a convention goer from traditional Chinese into English”
Really what is that!
If the exponential growth of grapes in the kingdom does go back to Jesus lips it would indicate Jesus had a supernatural view of it … not only in its inception by the Son of Man doing in gods enemies but during the kingdom’s reign providing for the masses needs. Milk and honey again.
Hi Bart,
Very interesting post.
I have a question:
Evanghelicals say that the Bible books are all in accordance with each other and the authors all say the same thing. Regarding the Gospels (especially), what are the best arguments that can make evanghelicals consider/be persuaded that each book was written by someone else, years apart from one other and that the messages are different from each other and from the rest of the NT?
Thanks
No one who firmly thinks that and is unwilling to look honestly and carefully at contrary evidence will be convinced. No matter what the argument. If you want to see some sustained discussion of key issues (contradictions, historical problems, etc.) see my book Jesus Interrupted.
Jesus seems to be a little more nettlesome in these quotes.
Speaking of “unknown sayings,” and I apologize that this is off topic relative to this post, but could you share (here or on a podcast) your understandings and/or NT scholarship about “tongues” and “speaking in tongues?” Does the contemporary Charismatic practice of speaking in tongues line up with what the Bible describes? What should we understand about this issue? Many thanks, and happy early Pentecost.
It’s a long story and would take a long answer. Short version: in the NT “tongues” are sometimes known languages (as in Acts 2) and other times unknown languages (1 Corinthians 12, 14). The “rules” Paul lays down are in 1 Cor. 12, 14. Some charistmatic practces line up with those rules better than others (only 2 or 3 at a service, and only if an interpreter is present)
I recognize Clement 12:2-6 from the Gospel of Thomas (logion 22). Do you think that was one of his sources? It seems Clement (who, before today, I knew next to nothing about) was apparently familiar with it as early as the late 1st/early 2nd C!
I remember being impressed with that particular logion. Sounding much like the non-dualistic schools of Hinduism (advaita vedanta) and Zen Buddhism, it made me want to learn more about Jesus. … up to that point my knowledge had mostly been limited to the usual sermon/sunday school stuff.
I doubt Jesus traveled to India, as some claim, but I see no reason why a first century Jewish mystic couldn’t have had the same realization.
I wish we knew more about Yeshua’s inner teachings (deciding the authenticity of what we do have is, no doubt, tricky). His multi-layered parables suggest he had quite a nuanced (realized + immanent?) eschatology, at least more so than what the Church and even most scholarly works I’ve read seemingly hold. But then the Catholic church has historically suppressed mysticism, and it’s probably beyond the scope of most secular scholarship, which deals mostly tmk with historicity and textual criticism.
Ah, I was confused at first. I thought you meant 1 Clement (which was written long before Thomas) but now I realize you mean 2 Clement. It’s *possible* that it is referring to GThomas, since it (2 Clement) probably dates around the middle of the 2nd century (neither 1 nor 2 Clement was actually written by Clement of Rome). But it’s also worth noting the the same logion is quoted by Clement of Alexandria in his Stromateis, who attributes it to the Gospel of hte Egyptians. It may simply be one of these sayings that was floating around.
This is quite an apostolic Who’s Who! But it looks to me like 2 Clement not only provides the largest collection of sayings here, but *all* the ones that have a familiar ring, i.e., appear to be attested (or, at least, arguable correlate with Jesus quotes) in other sources.
Six of these eight are similar to sayings that actually made it into the canon, and one of the other two is found (nearly verbatim) in the Gospel of Thomas. Only the complaint by Jesus that his “name is constantly blasphemed” sounds unfamiliar to these amateur ears.
Isn’t this in fact “Clement the Lesser” (so to speak), i.e., not the famous one who hailed from Alexandria?
Which prompts another question: Do you and/or your scholarly comrades have any criteria for assessing the overall reliability of the individual member of the Academy of Apostolic Pontificators? (Say, for instance, how often and widely they agree with their esteemed brethren, or how well any historical data they reference lines up with secular sources, etc.)
This is Clement of Rome, but in fact it’s simply attributed to him, he didn’t really write it. It’s usually dated to the mid second century.
I’m not sure what you’re asking in the final question! The accuracy of any author is evaluated based on the correspondence of what he says with what can otherwise be establsihed.
These quotes attributed to Jesus seem not to be based on morality and apocalyptic thinking, whereas genuine statements by the historical Jesus should be moral and apocalyptic in nature. This suggests that these other (now lost) gospels themselves had koan like saying that were made up by others who viewed Jesus as more of a mystic. Therefore, it seems that early `Christianity’ had lots of `gospels’ where lots of koan-like sayings were put into the mouth of Jesus. The Gnostics were doing that, and these sayings suggest that the proto-orthodox groups were doing that as well. All of this has caused me to now think that proto-orthodox people were using `Jesus’ as more of an ideal stereotypical sage — an idealized figure people could just to attribute their own wisdom like sayings to. Perhaps some of the wisdom like sayings in the canonical gospels were just made-up stuff and do not go back to the historical Jesus at all. Bart, what do you think of this possibility for these now lost gospels and more generally?
My view is that Jesus certainly said lots and lots of different things, and not everything he said was about ethics or the apocalyptic end of all things.
Interesting. It seems to me that Jesus never said things like “repenting through my name” since the idea that invoking a holy name conjures up spiritual powers comes from an exaltation Christology. Same thing with the idea that Jesus name could be `blasphemed’ by “outsiders”. In the dialogue with Trypho, it is Jesus judging rather than the son of man. Trypho’s dialogue would be more likely something Jesus said if it was worded like “In whatever circumstances the son of man overtakes you, in those he will also judge you”. Similar thing with Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 6.6.48, it presupposes a great commission and the Pauline idea that faith in Jesus brings about salvation. That is definitely contrary to the teachings of the historical Jesus because his teachings about salvation weren’t Pauline in nature. Two questions then. (1) Do you think Jesus gave his disciples a great commission? (2) Of all these unknown sayings listed in your blog, roughly, what percentage of them do you think goes back to the historical Jesus?
1. Definitely not. The commission presupposes a world wide church and I odn’t think ther’s any way Jesus anticipated one. 2. Not sure, many no (the first one) some yes (the second to last one)
‘When the two are one, and the outside like the inside, and the male with the female is neither male nor female’
Seems like Jesus was promoting non-binary gender identity. Conservative Evangelicals might take note – if they didn’t dismiss this and similar quotes as non-canonical.
QUESTION regarding Jn.10:36
I am “THE” son of God? (New English Translation)
I am “A” son of Elohim? (Complete Jewish Bible)
I am God’s Son? (New Revised Standard Version)
Which English translation do you consider to be more accurate from the ancient Greek manuscripts?
Well, son of “Elohim” is a bit out there, since John is written in Greek and Elohim never occurs in the NT (or early Xn writings?);
The word son does not have an article here (Greek doesn’t have an indefinite article, only a definite; so w/o an article a word is normally indefinite barring other grammatical issues and broader contextual considerations) so that, and given the context (esp. v. 34) I think it’s best translated “a son of God”. But it could be argued either way. The translation “God’s son” is given precisely to get around the problem.
what is a son of God?
The term “Son of God” is used in the Hebrew Bible as another way to refer to humans who have a special relationship with God. In Exodus, the nation of Israel is called God’s firstborn son. Solomon is also called “son of God”. Angels, just and pious men, and the kings of Israel are all called ” sons of God.”
Son of God – Wikipedia
ai: When you refer to “a son of God” instead of “the Son of God,” the interpretation can broaden to include other individuals or beings who are considered to have a special relationship with God or are seen as possessing a divine nature. Here are a few examples:
Adoption as Children of God: In some Christian teachings, believers are referred to as “sons of God” or “children of God” through adoption. This concept emphasizes the spiritual relationship between God and believers, indicating a close connection and a shared inheritance as part of God’s family.
Angelic Beings: In certain religious traditions, angels or celestial beings are referred to as “sons of God.” This understanding is found in texts like the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and ancient Jewish literature, where angels are depicted as heavenly beings who serve and worship God.
Spiritual Beings: In metaphysical or esoteric belief systems, the term “son of God” can be used to describe individuals who have attained a high level of spiritual enlightenment or realization. It signifies a close connection to the divine and the embodiment of divine qualities or attributes.
It’s important to note that the interpretation of “a son of God” can vary significantly depending on the religious or spiritual context in which it is used. Different traditions may have their own specific understandings and beliefs regarding individuals or beings who are considered “sons of God.”
playing with vocabulary