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Loading...Last year we admitted a student into our PhD program last year to work with me, but since I’ve been on academic leave to write my next book, I haven’t had the chance to teach her. That’s obviously a problem, since I”m one of the reasons she’s here! So we agreed that I would go ahead and do a one-on-one independent study with her this semester on an important topic, the Apostolic Fathers.
We meet once a week for three hours to translate Greek texts, discuss the books in question (see below), and talk about scholarly monographs that she is assigned to read each week. It’s a lot. But, well, welcome to the PhD! For many students college is a big leap form high school; a master’s program is a big leap from undergraduate; and a PhD program is a QUANTUM leap.
The “Apostolic Fathers” is a technical term for a group of 10 (or 11, depending on what you include) authors traditionally thought to have been writing immediately after the books of the NT were completed — that is, early second century — who stood within the proto-orthodox tradition. That is, these were the forerunners of what became standard Christian belief and practice, in Christianities early years, just after the New Testament. (So no “Gnostic” writings, etc.) In reality at least one of them was writing at the same time as the New Testament (the author of 1 Clement) and two are probably at the end of the second century (2 Clement and the Letter to Diognetus).
Some years ago I published a two-volume facing-page edition of the these authors, that is, Greek (and where there is no Greek, Latin) on the left page and my new translation on the right page. The books are highly significant for knowing about Christianity just after the NT period, and so I use the course (which I’ve taught a number of times) to get into key issues of early Christianity: heresy and orthodoxy, the development of church hierarchy, the role of women in the church, Jewish-Christian relations, persecution and martyrdom, the development of church ritual, etc. etc.
In any event, I thought you mighht be interested in what the Apostolic Fathers are, and what we are doing to discuss them. The books I’ve assigned her are either classics or cutting edge, on topics some of you may be interested in. So, here’s the syllabus I gave her.
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At times over the past 100 years or so, scholars and theologians have written about the “delay of the parousia” problem. Evidence from the New Testament for various positions on the issue has been debated.
How do the writings of the apostolic fathers discuss the timing of the parousia? Do any of them address concerns about a “delay” (like 2 Peter does, for example)?
Not really. The final chapter of the Didache still has a very enhanced apocalyptic view. Others just deal with other issues.
Clearly there’s a lot of preparation for the student for each session! How much preparation do you find that YOU have to do for this at this stage of your career?
Well, I have to reread the Greek and look back over the monographs. But it’s all familiar territory to me ….
First, thank you for doing this. I always find it fascinating when you present these views into the inner workings of this kind of academic work and training.
Second, a small (possibly dumb) question about the course description:
Each of the sessions’ reading assignments includes the note “(in English, several times)”.
I assume this is saying that an English version of the assigned text should be read “several times”, is this correct? Or is something else happening here?
[ That is, I kind of assumed that, at this level, having familiarized ones self with the text currently under discussion by carefully reading it multiple time was, more or less, a bare-minimum requirement, so “assigning” this task in so explicit a manner struck me as slightly confusing, so I thought I’d ask. But then, as I say, perhaps it is a dumb question. 😉 ]
Yup, that’s what it means
Dr. Ehrman, You mention that the book of Clement 1 was written the same time as some canonical writings. Does this author avoid the use of the word “Christian?” I’ve seen it included and excluded in translation. I couldn’t find it in the Greek text that I was reading. But then, I wasn’t looking at a copy of an original document. I find this particularly interesting because New Testament authors never address fellow believers as such. They just don’t appear to be very fond of the term.
Also, do you know what period authors begin using the term on a regular basis?
I don’t know if he avoids it, but he doesn’t use it. Within the communmities they were more likely to call one another “brothers” etc.; For outsiders they would be more likely known as Xns, and tehy sometimes talked about outsiders views of them as Xns (as in 1 Peter)
Fascinating! (Never heard of an H grade). A question that may be on-topic or off, I’m not sure. Would one be able to explore the roots of the idea of complementarianism in the writings of the apostolic church fathers? I’ve recently heard it’s not an original concept of the NT and I’m looking to find out more about how it developed. Thanks!
Ah: our graes aer H for high pass; P for pass; L for low pass; F for For goodness sake, try something else with your career.
That is why I never finished school. Too much for me to absorb. Your ninth session, specifically the final discussion, is that a trick question or an open ended one? Forgive me for asking, I am not being sarcastic. It brought a smile to my face along with your weeping and gnashing of teeth for late turn ins.
It’s a genuine question! Does it make sense to talk about this group of writers as a group, or to oranize their writings into a collection/canon?
A little bit late for this discussion but do you recommend Elizabeth Clark’s book on the First Origenist Controversy?
Thanks
Highly indeed! (She’s one of my closest friends as well!)
Amazing! A crazy amount of work each week, but amazing nonetheless. How often (if ever) do your doctoral or other students produce work with insights that surprise you, or raise points you had never thought of? After so many year teaching, I’m guessing it’s rare
Yup, it happens with some regularity. But not the undergrads!
Dr. Ehrman,
Would you please post some responses to Dr. Tabor’s view that Jesus may have been married or was probably married? I know you have written on the blog before regarding your view on this subject, but that seems to be several years ago and back when Dr. Tabor held the same view. Have you had a chance to examine dr. Tabor latest evidences to why he thinks Jesus may have been married? Paul not mentioning it, the fact that no wives are named, or how the absolute silence regarding the subject is questionable. I think members of the blog would be very curious to know if your views have changed regarding this issue.
Thanks, Jay
Good idea. I’ll add it to the list of posts I need to re-post! (none of those is among the reasons I doubt it)
I have already started the hard task of getting the texts… unless I find “a pious soul… the truth is that it is for my almost an obsession (actually obsessed me)
After all that hard work, that final question seems a bit discouraging …
Ha!
I heard that women were important in the early Christian movement, but there seems to be a dearth of Apostolic Mothers. When did this change from cherishing female voices come?
Ah, long story. Very long story. Maybe I’ll post on it again.
Hi Bart, do you think Clement of Rome knew the gospels or do you think he was quoting oral tradition in 1 Clement? Also there seems to be some disagreement if the leaders who were deposed in the letter were appointed by the Apostles or Appointed by the leaders who were appointed by the apostles ( I believe L Michael White says the latter) how do you interpret it?
I’ve never been able to decide; I think defintely the latter, or even by leaders appointed by leaders appointed by apostles.
Oh? I’ve just got your Loeb texts and in there you say the former, have you changed your mind since then? Also in the Loeb introduction to ignatius you mention that Origen says ignatius was the second Bishop after Peter, does this strike you as quite unlikely? It seems odd that ignatius never mentions this in any of his letters doesn’t it?
1. As I said: I’ve never been able to decide! Depends which day you ask me on. 🙂 2. Seems unlikely to me, yes. There would have been 40-50 years between Peter and Ignatius, at least… 3. I don’t think it’s excessively weird. The people he was writing to already knew who he was so he wouldn’t have to remind them…
Oh sorry I thought when you said you haven’t been able to decide you were referring to whether Clement knew the gospels or not!
What are the existing skills, qualifications and accomplishments of this PhD candidate e.g. is she already proficient in Greek; can she read French for the work set for Week 2? Will she actually teach 40 minute lectures based on her mini-reports? Will she be paid for these? Will she be graded for her teaching skills?
1. Yes, excellent in Greek and Latin 2. Turns out she doesbn’t have French yet 3. No, it’s just a hypothetical: she one day will have to. 4. No, she doesn’t give lectures, just delivers a report.
So exciting! Thanks for sharing this. Makes me want to take refuge at a quiet table by the stacks. But how to prepare for that final discussion??
Read about the debate, weigh the arguments, and make a decision!
🙂 I think you answered my question elsewhere in this thread, as to whether / how to read these works collectively. Seems the same question applies to the NT then, but we’re used to thinking of that as a more typical ‘canon’ discussion.
Hi Dr Ehrman
I have two questions:
1. Is de Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans considered authentic and written by Ignatius?
2 That letter is famous because is the first time that the term “catholic” is used by the early church. Does that means Ignatius put that name or you think it was used before him?
1. Yes; 2. This led to an enormous debate between one of the MAJOR scholars of the 17th century, an archbishop in Ireland, James Ussher, and a young upstart Puritan that no one had ever heard of, named John Milton!! The word “catholic” just means “throughout the world,” nothing technical yet.
Dr. Ehrman Actually thank you very much for sharing this, it really seems amazing. My question is if you are familiar with the work “Greek Apologetic Fathers” by RUIZ BUENO, D. Or the work on “Fathers of the Church” by Antonio Piñero (Complutense University of Madrid)
No, I don’t believe so. the first sounds like it is on the apologists, rather than the apostolic fathers (both are very important collections of writings, but they are different) and the latter on a wide range of fathers, probably not focusing on these earliest ones.
Just reading the syllabus activated my irritable bowel!
I am midway through a part-time MA, studying Classics and Ancient History, (and am currently on a break) and so I was very interested to see what a PhD course looked like. You are certainly right about the leap from first degree to Masters and a PhD looks both exciting and (I have say) a little bit intimidating in terms of the workload. Just a thought, Dr Ehrman, have you ever considered doing (or in fact do you do) one-to-one distance learning courses on aspects of early Christianity and the New Testament?
No, I’m afraid not. I wish I had the time!
Hi Bart,
I am rereading some of your blogs, and in my own research reverting back and forth between pro-Christian perspectives and of course opposing views. One that I get hung up on is Polycarp. I have searched your blogs and do not see much elaboration on him so I thought I would reach out. I find that Polycarp is the one source that Christians (at least the few who are educated in it’s history) have as a gateway to confirming the supernatural events of the scriptures via the Apostle John, since Polycarp and John were close. Do you have any thoughts an the authenticity of this relationship, or how there could be issues with this argument?
I don’t think the later stories about Polycarp being John’s disciple are necessarily reliable. But even so, Polycarp does not provide us with any confirmation of John’s miracle stories. It is very (VERY!) interesting ithat in Polycarp’s letter, he repeatedly quotes the other Gospels and other writings of the NT, but NEVER quotes the gospel of John. It’s not clear he knew it.
Thank you Dr. Erhman. It seems Irenaeus was emphatic about Polycarp’s relationship with John. I have not been able to find any sources from Polycarp that describes his conversations with John either, but assume it’s just a matter of none survived (or he didn’t write about it). I would think Irenaeus would have written as well what he heard Polycarp say about John additionally. Are there any such documents from the early fathers writing precisely what they heard from John?
Yes, he was. Of course he was emphatic about a lot of things! I don’t recall that he says anything at all about *what* Polycarp said about John; maybe soemone else on the blog can help us out.
Apostolic fathers. As I have said before, I think Justin Martyr was pretty good at his interpretation and understanding of what it was to be a Christian in the 2nd c ce. Ok I’m a church of Christer as I also mentioned. As you may or may not know, a lot of those types really throw down the gauntlet on the issue of music. How did early Christians do it? Did they use musical instruments? Did they sing acapella? Any insight on this from an early writers/apostolic fathers standpoint? (Remember only you, obi Bart kenobi, can settle doctrinal differences in objectivity ????????)
And also Eucharist? Every Sunday? Strictly with unleavened bread? Justin says something about that too I think.
Of course musical instruments aer mentioned in the Bible. And the evidence from Paul indicates that the commemorative meal was every week. (Justin, by the way, is not one of the Apostolic Fathers; that is a technical term for a group of other writers)
More about early Eucharist please. What in holy china is going on in 1 corinthians 11? Was the Eucharist intertwined with a common meal? Love feast ala Jude? Most importantly did they use unleavened bread?
Yes it appears to have been a weekly communal meal that commemorated Jesus’ death. Presumably there was a point (beginning? end?) when there was a kind of official “remembrance” with liturgical words spoken, involving bread and wine. We don’t know if the bread was to be unleavened or not.
I’m a newbie to this blog, Dr. Ehrman, although I’ve read eleven of your books, including the 3rd edition of your textbook on the NT (Oxford, 2004).
My question is this: Since admission to the Canon was partly based on how close in time to Jesus’ life a writing was, would you agree or disagree that the doctrinal views of those who actually knew Jesus had the most credibility?
For instance, if the earliest Christians (like brother James, the apostles) didn’t believe Jesus was God, shouldn’t we listen to them more than, say, a latecomer like Paul?
I’d say it’s a complicated matter. I’ve had students who have heard me lecture for an entire semester who never understand my major points at all, and people I’ve never met who understand my views inside out. So proximity in and of itself doesn’t guarantee accuracy, I would say. On the other hand, if you could show that none of Jesus earlier followers thought he was divine but only much later ones, that obviously would be highly significant. The problem is, historically, no one can show that.
Prof. ehrman, have you read “Ignatius and the arian controversy”? By Paul Gilliam III. Its a continuation of some of the work into the manuscript criticism of some of the letters of Ignatius. Apparently some scholars see evidence of attempted harmonizations of Ignatius early letters to post Nicene creeds. Do you have an opinion on whether scribes altered his christology from subordinationism to trinitarianism?
Yes, he was my student before heading off to do his PhD. He’s a fine fellow. I wouldn’t be surprised if scribes altered his texts in line with later controversies, and certainly the “Pseudo-Ignatian” editions of his work do so (the additional Ignatian letters and the expansion of the authentic ones) . Whether the surviving manuscripts of the shorter more authentic letters are also corrupted is very difficult to say.
Oh wow I didnt know he was a student of yours. It was a great piece and his clear writing style was refreshing. It felt like a popularized literature rather than a scholarly composition, similar to how you write actually! Thanks as always for the responses and the charitable work you do.
Dear Dr. Ehrman, thank for the significant post.
Do you have any idea how and why churches change Sabbath to Sunday during the first 100 hundreds after Jesus died? (It seems like Jewish churches still keep Sabbath according to Acts.) And what are common opinions of early church fathers on Sabbath? Thanks a lot.
It appears that very soon after Jesus’ death, months later?, his followers began to commemorate his death on the day that he was thought to have been raised. Those who saw him as somehow God — most of the earliest? — would have worshiped him then. If they were Jews they would have kept the Sabbath as well. Eventually most Christains were non-jews — probably in Paul’s time — so their day of worship was Sunday instead of Saturday.
Hi Dr. Ehrman,
Thank you! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this blog and us, your audience.
In the Gospel of John, the Jewish townspeople pick up stones to stone Jesus for implying his divinity. But after Jesus’s resurrection, the apostles were going around town proclaiming Jesus’ divinity and the only thing the Sanhedrin did was imprison Peter and the apostles, and beat them. When questioned, Peter says that God exalted Jesus, but Peter says nothing about Jesus being God. Stephen is killed due to saying bad things about the Holy Place. Paul is mobbed in the Temple of Jerusalem for bringing a Gentile into the Temple. But surely associating Jesus with the status of God was worse than the crimes that Stephen, Peter and Paul were accused of!
Do you know of an explanation for why the apostles were able to get away with preaching that Jesus is God? In Acts, it says that the early Christians would gather in the Temple to worship together. Surely if they were calling Jesus God, they would not have been tolerated inside the Temple? Could it be that this is evidence that the apostles were not preaching a divine Jesus?
Good question. One very big difference is that the author of Acts had a different view of Jesus and his divinity from John. In Acts Jesus is not called God — but that’s why he is threatened with stoning in John. The followers of Jesus do worship Christ in Acts, that’s true; but it was possible in Judaism to worship angels (technically a king is worshiped when you bow down before him; it is simply acknowlegding someone greater than yourself.). Maybe more important, I don’t believe the worship of Christ is not said to have been done when non-believers were around (let alone officials), so I suppose maybe they were not known to have been doing.
Thank you so much for replying to my question!!!
Would you be willing to post on, or comment on if it’s a simple enough answer. Which, if any, of the apostolic fathers have any possibility of being truly connected to the apostles?
Good idea.