Loading...I have devoted several posts to the issue of Jesus’ virgin birth, as recounted in Matthew and Luke. As I pointed out, there is no account of Jesus’ virgin birth in the Gospel of John, and it appears that the idea is actually argued *against* (implicitly) in the Gospel of Mark.
As happened last time I did a thread like this, several readers have asked me (or told me) about the similarities to the virgin birth stories in pagan texts, where a son of God, or demi-god, or, well, some other rather amazing human being, is said to have been born of a virgin. Aren’t the Christians simply borrowing a widely held view found among the pagans, that if someone is the son of God (e.g., Hercules, or Dionysus, or Asclepius, etc.), his mother is always thought to have been a virgin?
As it turns out, that’s not the case at all.
I don’t know of any parallel to …
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Sounds like they went to Google University before Google University was a thing.
Spot on!
What about Typhon, the monstruous serpentine giant from Greek mythology? The Homeric Hymn to Apollo tells us that Typhon is son of Hera alone, conceived by prayer, not sex. True, Hera was not at that time a virgin, but it is explicitly stated that “never at all she came to the bed of great Zeus”.
And what about the sky god Uranus? According to Hesiod, he was conceived by Gaia alone. At that point Gaia was presumably a virgin.
Perhaps your point is that *heroes* are not produced by virgin births? Was virgin birth perceived as not heroic, but monstruous?
By the way, among Komodo dragons virgin births are actually possible. There is more that one documented case of females kept in zoos producing male offspring never having had contact with a male Komodo dragon.
Yes, I’m speaking of humans; I don’t know of any (or any demi-gods) who were born of a woman who was a virgin.
Dr. Herman
Do you have any comments about the general veracity of joseph campbell as he relates to your field of study?
He was a master at taking his views of religion to a wider audience. 30-40 years ago he was the rage. But today scholars do not think that he understood the religious traditions that he discussed, especially his view that underneath they are all the same. They just aren’t….
If I could suggest a book on exactly this topic: “Joseph Campbell: An Introduction” by Robert A Segal.
It does a very good job of explaining the issues and problems that most professional scholars in the fields of Mythology and Religion have with Campbell’s works.
Thanks. Yes, Segal is a major scholar.
In Buddhism, early tradition included a story that the Buddha emerged from his mother’s side. That would be virginal, I suppose. Maybe this story was circulating along the ancient Silk Roads, written in Greek even. Matthew and Luke picked up the scoop while writing their Gospels? Just a thought.
Interesting. How early do those stories date? (I.e., what is the first recorded instance of them?) Is there any evidence that they were known anywhere in the Greco-Roman world?
Buddhists in the first century BCE (in Ceylon) decided (in some group summit) to finally write down their scriptures into the ancient Pali language. I think Ceylon was part of Greek territory. Translation Pali to Greek probably happened quite soon. I e-mailed you some interesting stuff that would top the 200-word comment limit, many times over.
AFAIK, there’s no ancient tradition claiming that Maya was a virgin, just ones claiming that the Buddha’s conception was not the result of intercourse. Maya was a royal consort, so presumably, if the traditions wanted to make a point that she was a virgin, they would have mentioned that categorically.
The Lalitavistara Sutra — The Voice of the Buddha Vol 1., Dharma Publishing, Chapter 6, 1983, p. 130, says that “The Bodhisattva now came forth, possessing full memory and knowledge; from the right side of his mother he emerged, untouched by the taint of the womb. Of no one else can this be said.” Sounds virginal to me. Can you date this Buddhist scripture? I think it’s early.
I still find it odd that God’s first command to people (Adam and Eve) was to be fruitful and multiply, and yet sex, the action necessary to be fruitful, came to be looked on as sinful even with married couples by some early Christians (more generally, why are major religions so obsessed with sex when there is so much misery in the world to deal with?). I understand the Catholic concept of the Immaculate Conception that Mary must have been born without original sin so that she could give birth to a sinless Jesus, but why was perpetual virginity necessary? After Jesus was born why would it matter if she had sex with her husband, which both the OT and NT suggest would be her duty as a good wife? Seems to me that refusing to consummate her marriage with Joseph would be a sin, a breaking of her marriage vow. Theology leads to some very weird and contradictory ideas.
I guess the point is that Jesus was not like all the other descendants of Adam and Eve, and so his mother couldn’t be either; if he were just another one like them, he couldn’t die for their sins. (AT least that’s what some theologians have argued; I myself can’t decide to die, for example, to cover over the sins of someone else. I’m just a guy….)
Having dealt with these people do you have a sense of why it is so important to them to say Jesus didn’t exist?
TMI maybe
I am not referring to the edgelords speaking superciliously from Mom’s basement, but the educated folks who fashion themselves as rationiolaists, and will only accept scrupulous, Spock-like logic.
Yet, when confronted with the idea that the preponderance of the evidence/scholarly consensus/occams razor answer is that there was a historical Jesus – go absolutely ape crap. I.e. Call names, fire off emotional emails, stamp feet, cite dubious non experts and “scholarship” (this post on the “many” gods born of a Virgin a case in point)
Why? Why is that so triggering to them? I mean, you have written entire books and articles showing how Jesus became God and how “christianity” as we think of it came to be … So do you have any insight into why that particular point of order is so important to them? It is a weird as heck hill to die on to me.
I deal with this in my book. Most of them, so far as I can tell from those I know, have a visceral hatred of Christianity either because they suffered from adopting it (or from those who adopted it) or for some other reason, almost always personal, and they think the best way to undercut it is to say Jesus never even existed, so the entire basis for the faith is destroyed. In my book I argue that they are shooting themselves in the foot with that argument. They would be much better served to argue a point that others won’t laugh at.
First, a Happy New Year to you…and second, I will soon be upgrading to the higher level…I truly enjoy and appreciate your blog and sharing of the intelligence you have worked so hard to achieve in your career…allowing me to get the benefit, without much effort, to learn from. Thank you…and wishing you the very best in the coming year and all to follow.
What do you think of the theory that Christians invented the Virgin Birth Story in the second half of the first century to deflect Jewish criticism that Jesus was illegitimate?
I’d say there’s *something* to that but I don’t think it’s quite that direct and simple. THere probably were rumors about Jesus’ unusual birth (born out of wedlock) and other rumors developed that it was unusual but God-directed. Most rumors are not lies that someone dreamt up; they weirdly appear as stories are passed along, and often by sincere and otherwise truthful people. As it turns out, there’s been some serious scholarship done on the phenomenon of rumors!
> As it turns out, there’s been some serious scholarship done on the phenomenon of rumors!
Any reading recommendations for us on that?
It’s been years since I looked at it, and there may be more available now, but you might try Ralph Rosnow’s book on Gossip and Rumors.
Hi Gary,
There’s a great story which enlarges upon your question, by Bruce Chilton, an expert in Aramaic. His book, RABBI JESUS: An Intimate Biography, is a novelization of the life of Jesus, and posits that Jesus was thought of as illegitimate in his hometown, with the result being that it shaped his entire response to his outlook regarding Judaism. (I’ve read it several times and “reviewed” it at Amazon, which is unusual for me, as I read very little fiction.)
~eric. MeridaGOround dot com
Readers might want to look at Tom Harpur’s book, The Pagan Christ. Harpur has cred: Anglican priest, Rhodes Scholar, professor of ancient languages, religion journalist, etc. He describes Horus, son of Osirus and Isis, as a mythical messianic figure from ancient Egypt, mentioning a hymn in the tomb of Seta 1 (c.1370 bce): “Praise be unto thee, O Ra, thou exalted power…thou One who bringest into being that which has been begotten, behold (thy) body is Horus.” –p.69. (Harpur also wrote a scholarly follow-up titled Water into Wine, which I’ve not read.)
~eric. MeridaGOround dot com
Yes, they should look at it. I discuss it in my book Did Jesus Exist to show that he really doesn’t know what he’s talking about a lot of the time. It seems weird, given his background!
There’s also J M Robertson’s Pagan Christs (1903). I haven’t read it since 1995, and my copy has no index, so I can’t pin down easily whether it addressed the virgin birth myth.
Thanks, Bart. I’ve been meaning to read that one of yours, as I have a friend who is an atheist who has bought the line that Jesus didn’t exist. I’ll order a pulp copy so I can share it after I’m done. (It will take awhile to arrive, as I’m in Yucatan.)
It dawned on me yesterday just how Christianity was able to turn “the tables” or “the money changers” over in the Empire and attract pagans, Gentiles, into the Jesus Movement. The key is: in Jesus, the gods are present, his story somehow resonates within the Empire. A regular man, Jewish at that, WILL NOT sell. But, “God” and/or “Son of God” or a “man-god” WILL sell in our non-Jewish world! The Virgin Birth, although not present as you say Dr Ehrman in the pagan tradition, does have “the miraculous birth” element! Dionysus was born miraculously or asexually at the hip of Zeus and wine contained his body. Horus was also born miraculously to Isis when his dad had already died! It’s the miracle principle of the Jesus story. The miraculous Jesus story, of course, is as fictional as pagan mythology or the classical tradition itself.
The improbability of the virgin birth also works to diminish the importance of virginity itself. After all, the imperative to assure one is not being tasked with raising another man’s child is evidence of a recent menstrual cycle prior to marriage, not the presence of a hymen. In more modern times, western men have shifted to desiring in practice a woman who is not inexperienced, but who has less experience than one’s own self. And Islamic terrorists have gone from desiring one virgin in this life to 72 virgins in the afterlife.
The late Dr Joseph Campbell in “The Power of Myth” gave his best interview at Skywalker ranch with Bill Moyers shortly before he passed away in 1987. He said on page 223: “Read the text where it is declared that *those forms which were merely mythological forms in the past are now actual and incarnate in our Saviour*.” Wow! How powerful is this information? This issue is addressed in 2 Peter, here Christians are accused of following “cunningly devised fables” (2 Peter 1:16).
Church father Justin Martyr wrote: “…we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding THE SONS OF JUPITER.” To convert anyone involves having “appeal.” That “appeal” is not found in this Jewish prophet – the historical Jesus. Rather, it is the superhuman/miraculous aspects (as fictionalized by the NT writers/apologists) that is the true appeal for most Christians! Mythology underlines or defines the Western World! That is the connect of the Virgin Birth to pagan mythology – “belief in miracles!” Amen.
This is a bit different, but in classical mythology there were stories of gods who were born, if not strictly “of a virgin”, then at least “parthenogenically” (I.e. without a father).
One example is Hephaestus whose mother, Hera, in some accounts, gave birth to him “all on her own”.
(In short, as the story goes, Hera was jealous of her spouse Zeus for “giving birth” to Athena. So to teach him a lesson she basically willed herself to give birth to the child who became Hephaestus without any “help” from Zeus.
Hephaestus’s ugly, crippled form was then said to be the punishment for Hera daring to perform such an unnatural act.)
Bart, would you post something about the two men crucified with Jesus? We’re they thieves or something else entirely?
I”m afraid we don’t really know anything about them. Our earliest account, Mark (followed by Matthew) describes them as LESTAI. That’s a Greek word that sometimes gets translated as “robber,” but is used by the first century Jewish historian Jospehus to refer to “guerilla bandit,” that is an armed insurrectionist fighting for independence. That would make a lot of sense, since Jesus too was executed for charges of insurrection (claiming to be the King).
Thank you.
Prof Ehrman,
On the story of the two crucified robbers/ insurrectionists. Do you think they are historical? If not, what could have influenced their development?
I don’t think there’s anyway to know. My hunch is that none of Jesus’ followers actually saw the crucifixion. The motivation for them could have been the passage in Isa 53 that he was “numbered with the transgressors” — that is, that he was killed with others.
Oh my, I already bought The Jesus Mysteries and it will be delivered soon. But maybe the part on mystery religions will be enlightening? Years ago I had a book that tried to connect Christianity to eastern mystery religions that were starting to have an impact within the Roman Empire. The book is long gone, as well as any detailed memories I might have had of it. I do vaguely remember a discussion of Mithras, and connections and similarities to early Christianity. I don’t even remember the author. It was published in the sixties, I think. Oh, and I think, but I just don’t know…
Bart
I am fascinated that in the Gospel of John there is not only no mention of the Bethlehem narrative BUT when the Nazareth narrative is presented – usually derogatorily in Jn1, Jn7 and (?), there is NO push-back to at least annotate, e.g. “as was supposed” or some such. This strikes me as more likely than not that this author was entirely UNAWARE of the Bethlehem narrative – and likely the virgin birth narrative.
Likewise for Paul – his sonship appears adoptionistic (Acts 13, Rom1.4, etc.) with nary a mention of a virgin birth.
These internal evidence lend weight to the notion that the virgin birth was an added prefix. I would suggest because portions of the early Christian community felt they needed “to keep up with the Pagan Jones”.
Thoughts??
Yup, that’s pretty much my line of thought. I’m not sure pagan influence is the only factor thought. There’s also just the inherent desire to show that Jesus is not merely human. Prophets were often born supernaturally; Jesus is *more* than a prophet and so his birth is even more supernatural.
I laughed out loud when discovering that even Richard Carrier panned The Jesus Mysteries.
I’ve read the Freke and Gandy book and, while I agree with Dr Ehrman that some of their sweeping assertions have all the hallmarks of sensationalist literature (usually written by ex-journalists), the pair do have respectable academic credentials and I think there is some substance to the claim that Christianity modelled itself to an extent on Pagan mystery religions (eg communal meals, secretive meetings, learning spiritual truths – all these things had much in common with the cults of Mithras, Isis etc.)
Interesting — do they have academic credentials? I don’t recall! But yes, it’s widely thought that early Christianity would have looked like a kind of Jewish mystery religion to many outsiders, so I don’t think that’s the point of contention with their book.
I’m new, I’ll bite.
“And when I hear , Trypho, that Perseus was begotten of a virgin, I understand that the deceiving serpent counterfeited this also.”
Justin Martyr, last sentence of Diologue with Trypho, Ch. 70.
Perseus, conceived of a golden “rain” falling onto the virgin Danae (apologies for the missing umlaut over the e) by Zeus.
Parallelism is tricky. Too stringent and you bypass much valid evidence, too loose and you’re just making stuff up.
I cringe every time people take the “We don’t know Jesus even existed” or “You know Jesus was copied from pagans, right?” position when I’m present. And they can’t seem to understand why I, a not strictly religious person, would be defending the existence of Jesus.
Not much of a scholarly question, but how does one in conversation deal with these handwaving remarks uber-skeptics make about Jesus’s existence?
I suppose the same way one deals with any conspiracy theory. You’ll never convince someone. At least I never have.
Parthenogenesis typically occurs in invertebrates(ants, wasps, bees) but it has been noted in hammerhead sharks and blacktop sharks when the females have been isolated from males.
Fascinating!
Greetings Bart as my first comment i must say its a pleasure to be part of this cause supporting the less fortunate. My first question is what do you know about the 300 plus similarities between krishna and the “Nephilim” known as jesus? Second question; Jesus is reputed to be the one that created all things however the OT states that the Father created everything alone, would that mean that the “Son” is stealing credit from the father?
I’m not familiar with the term Nephilim for Jesus; the term comes from Genesis 6 in reference to the offspring of the sons god and the daughters of men. Also, I’m not sure where the idea of 300 similarities with krishna come from?
In Christianity the Father created all things *through* the Son, so they both can be seen as the creator.
Apologies, I was hoping you got my drift about fallen angels mating with the daughters of men theory. In that regard the Holy Ghost/spirit impregnated Mary subsequently making Jesus a “Nephilim”(human/divine being Hybrid). I read a book called ‘The world’s sixteen Crucified Saviors Christianity before Christ’ by Kersey Graves which mentions many similarities of mutiple Dying-Rising oriental gods and even a Mexican god named Quexalcote. All predating Christ of coarse, Krishna having the most prolific parallels to Jesus in almost every sequence of event in the narrative. Would you agree the NT is a plagiarized fabrication of pagan antiquities intertwined with OT stories? Also Is the NT an utter contradiction to the OT?
I”m afraid the book by Graves is filled with misinformation, lots of fiction and very little fact. He was not a historical scholar.