(11 votes, average: 4.64 out of 5)
Loading...SORRY Y’ALL. AS roughly 82,000 people have pointed out to me: This post was already posted four days ago. It was a glich in the system. The system is … my brain. UGH. So if you read Oct. 6, don’t bother today!….
Translators of the Bible have a terrifically complicated and difficult (and usually thankless) task. I always knew that, of course, with my head – ever since taking Greek back in college. But I did not relate to the problems emotionally until I started publishing translations of my own. It’s HARD. My first translation project was a two-volume edition of the Apostolic Fathers for the Loeb Classical Library (published by Harvard University Press).
It was at that point that I realized that what translators do is not at all what the rest of us do who can teach the ancient languages and read Greek and assign Greek translation exercises to classes of graduate students. When you are with a class of students, you can sit around the table, discuss the various options about how a text can be translated, talk about the pros and cons of various English renditions, make a few suggestions for how to provide nuance to a rendering, explicate the fuller meaning of the Greek by paraphrasing a phrase or a clause in several English sentences to capture the fuller meaning, and so on.
But when you’re publishing a translation, you have to make a DECISION and type a few words instead of some other words. It’s really really hard at first.
One of the other problems faced by translators of ancient texts (unlike modern, in most instances) has not occurred to most readers of these translations. It involves knowing
Now here is a problem most people don’t know about. Want to see more? Join the blog! It doesn’t cost much and will pay high dividends; and your small fee goes entirely to charity. What could be better?Click here for membership options
This a repeat post of Oct 6th. Just another title for the same content
Really? No one else caught it. Ugh!
hmmm…this appears to be a repost of the post from Oct 6.
So people are telling me! 🙂
Wasn’t this already published 4 days ago?
So people are telling me! 🙂
What is the name for the type of textual error where the scribe accidentally copies the entire passage of a post he wrote four days ago and then reposts it under a different heading?
Complete incompetence.
But given the low incidence of scribal errors in the above post, it’s still a pretty good witness to the ‘textus receptus’ of October 6 🙂
Ha!
I haven’t laughed so much at Truncated’s clever comment and your brilliant reply for ages.
Funny!
“atonement into a book that originally did not have it.” Discovery is in line with Judaism and Islam. God will forgive those who feel regret for their wrongdoings and repent sincerely.
Crucifixion not true. John reported crucifixion occurred on the day for the preparation for Passover, other three authors felt it was after Passover. Resurrection happened completely two different times showing all writers were merely guessing that make atonement gibberish because nobody–writers, disciples, Jesus’s family, and Paul never witness these events.
Evidence NO crucifixion:Mark14:36 “And he said, Abba, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless, not what I will, but what thou wilt.” Jesus, exceeding sorrowful, asking God to save him.
John16:10 “I go to the Father, and you will SEE ME NO MORE;” NO CRUCIFIXION.
John8:29 “And HE WHO SENT ME IS WITH ME; he has not left me alone,” HOW CAN ANYONE CRUCIFY JESUS WHEN GOD IS WITH HIM?
John16: 4-5 “But NOW I am going to him who sent me;” NOW, NOW, long before the betrayal.
John17: 3-4 “having accomplished the work which thou gave me to do” Jesus COMPLETED HIS ASSIGNMENTS. Nothing to do with crucifixion,resurrection or atonement.
Hi Dr Ehrman!
What role did animal sacrifice play in apocalyptic Jewish thinking and soteriology?
And what role did the covenant play?
Following on from that: when 1st century Jews saw Jesus as an atoning sacrifice, why did that equate to salvation from annihilation?
Thank you!!
Apocalypstic Jews continued whole to believe in both the covenant and the scrifice. Salvation was from annililation because Jews by and large did not have a concept of a person surviving death for rewards or punishments; only by being raised from the dead in teh body could one live again. those who weren’t raised for eternal life were destroyed once they faced jugement: body killed and therefore person annihilated. Revelation calls this the “second death”
Thank you!
But if animal sacrifice didn’t = salvation for Jews
Where did the idea that Jesus’ death as an atoning sacrifice equals salvation come from? When did atonement start equating to salvation?
Thanks Dr Ehrman!!
It brought forgiveness of sins to those whom God already favored. Since for Christians forgiveness of sins ultimately could come no other way, the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary.
I understand you to say that God breathes life into people and that they die when the breath leaves them. When God raises them he restores the breath.
My question is whether God is thought to restore the “same, specific” breath that left people when they died? Or does God simply breathe into people his own “generic” divine breath to bring them back to life? The former would begin to resemble a soul.
Yup, it’s the same person who comes back to life, same memories, thoughts, etc.
Bart,
Here’s everything important together: Unfamiliar material, ancient sensibilities, personal bias. The SCRIBES are choosing? What possible hope for an accurate rendering? If you KNOW the material, you have a guide.
Who would know the material? One who PRACTICES it. There are such experts. Not me, but perfect living Masters who HAVE written their own take on these texts. Understanding the material yields knowledge. For example: First Samuel 3:11, Samuel DOING a thing in Israel that makes everyone’s ears “tingle.” A Master recognizes this as SURAT SHABD YOGA — hearing Shabd, or WORD. Richard Elliott Friedman translates it “RING” — not ‘tingle.’ This is correct. The faithful of ‘Israel,’ the believers wherever, will HEAR the Word of the Lord. It comes from *practice,* and only under expert guidance.
Without a knowledgeable helper, one will never get spiritual teaching right.
You may be bright, you may be. Ph. D., you may even be well respected in your field as translator. But if you don’t know the material, you or your committee will come up with something as damned wrong as NIV “looks to” for John 6:40’s Father’s wiil that everyone SEE their savior in real time. And THAT matters.
I’m not a big fan of the NIV. But when it comes to knowing the material, there’s not a lay-person who could come close to the translators, person-by-person, at least none I’ve ever met. Disagreeing with someone’s understanding does not always mean they don’t know the material. they just have different premises.
Hi Bart,
You seem to have already posted this same post on October 6, under the title “What Do Translators Translate? It’s Not So Obvious…”.
So people are telling me! 🙂
Bart I had a question unrelated to this post about the gospels authorship.
I was looking up Christian rebuttals for the gospels being anonymous and according to Dr. Brant Pitre he says “There are no anonymous manuscripts/copies of the gospels in Greek” he says there are 0 anonymous copies
How would you respond?
Is it because we didn’t have complete copies of the gospels in the 1st century? Lend your thoughts, thanks
I’m not sure what he means. In no manuscript does an author of a Gospel name himself. The Gospels in all manuscripts are anonymous. Does he mean that the manuscripts all have titles on them naming the author? Those weren’t put there by the authors, but by other people telling you who they thought the author was. They have to do that precisely because the authors were anonymous!
I enjoyed reading it a second time, and some of the formatting is a bit different anyway.
I would think with the advent of advanced computer programs,the trickiness of translation wouldn’t be a problem anymore.
If translation were simply a mechanical process of choosing a corresponding word in a different language, yes indeed, it would be massively easy. Just use Google Translate! But it’s much much more complicated than that and requires subjective judgments.
I know that Marcion is said to have included only the Gospel of Luke in his approved collection of readings. However, is it known that he actually rejected the other gospels or did he just not have access to them? Thanks.
We don’t know. And it’s not perfectly clear if his Gospel was Luke or was instead very much like Luke.
What’s your feelings on Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible?
Im afraid I don’t know it.
I’m wondering if many/most feminist NT Scholars have serious problems with a big part of the message to be found in the Annunciation story and virginal conception. My reading is that Mary was not given a choice. She was told what was going to happen and humbly accepted it rather than fighting or resenting it.
Also, just having watched “Rosemary’s Baby,” I’m disturbed about Mary becoming pregnant by means of or after the Holy Spirit comes upon her and the power of the most high overshadows her. I don’t think it means that God literally had physical sex with Mary but it is sexually suggestive. And with the pregnancy of a submissive, unmarried, “underaged” girl as the outcome, it seems to me to correlate with sexual abuse.
Of course “overshadow” might allude to other things in the OT. Neither, by first century standards, was Mary underage. And I’m guessing that female submissiveness was part of that culture. But an unmarried pregnancy was not.
I’ve always liked the Annunciation story. It’s one of Catholicism’s “Joyful Mysteries.” But a close reading reveals a very dark side in the context of our own egalitarian standards.
When nothing written about Jesus until decades later, it is even harder to know details about Mary his mother but traditions put her around 12~13 years (grade 7~8 student) when she was given in marriage to a grown up man & gave birth.
The virginal conception was to indicate that Jesus’s father is God (Holy Spirit) hence God was the mover to get her pregnant, though spirit doesn’t appear in carnal form to have physical sex.
Was the conception story a hallucination delusion of a young girl who was intoxicated to have sex or a post traumatic shock to being forced to have sex with her husband possibly tens of years older or just a legend emerging from the Greco-Roman background. No body knows
I’m wondering if you overlooked this question, at least the part about feminist scholars having problems with the Annunciation and virginal conception.
Sorry: I didn’t see a question in the comment. And still don’t! But yes, obviously it is very easy to see the annunciation as an announcement of divine rape.
Do most feminist NT scholars see it that way or at least as very problematic from an ethical standpoint?
Many do. And it’s easy to see why.
Thoughts on 12 tribes vs disciples? What do historians do?
Sorry, not sure what you’re asking!
I’m severely ADD. The repost was just vaguely familiar to me 🙂
Hello Bart. Not sure if unrelated questions are allowed, but I was wondering what are the current best guesses for where the 4 Gospel writers lived ?
Thank you.
Absolutely allowed, and frequent! My view is that it’s just guess work. Traditionally Mark is place in Rome, Matthew in Antioch, John in Ephesus, and Luke — I don’t know where. But the reasons usually given are terribly flimsy. I think all we can say is that they each probably came from urban areas (probably different ones) in the Roman world outside of Palestine.
Thank you Bart. Your time is corresponding directly with blog members (when you probably have no time to do all your “real” work) is very much appreciated.
Dr Ehrman,
1. How Punctuations are added/inserted when translating ancient texts from Koine Greek or ancient Hebrew to modern English?
2. Would it not give the translators a lot of “edge” to skew meaning or spirit of original texts?
3. If so, can you refer a few examples?
Regards,
Kashif
1. Yes edtors/translators have to decide these things 2. Yup, it can matter a lot. 3. Luke 23:24: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” OR “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.” And Romans 9:5: “To them [the Jews] belong the partriarchs, and from them according to the flesh, comes the Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever.” OR “To them [the Jews] belong the partriarchs, and from them according to the flesh, comes the Christ, who is over all. God be blessed forever.”
“posted four days ago.”
Accept the positive side. Sign to remind that not getting younger. Be vigilant and prepare for end of life. Aware that anything in the universe moves is because something in control moves it.
Authority moves planets in the Solar System revolve around the Sun in an anticlockwise direction. Earth rotates on its axis in an opposite clockwise direction. Believers perform the circumambulation of Kaaba in line with the Solar System. Authority or God Most Merciful sent down revelation with all the truths to SAVE MANKIND with guidance to the straight path and also warn those who insist to go astray.
“Those who reject Our Signs We shall soon cast into the fire: as often as their skins are roasted through We shall change them for fresh skins that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power Wise.”
“…fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith”
“Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah’s curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind. They will abide therein: Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will they receive respite”
“The system is … my brain.” It is a sign of aging and warning death is approaching. As anyone mellow, many will utilize their brain to change for the better and accept the many signs of after death.
“…Those who deny (their Lord), will be cut out a garment of Fire. Over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away, from anguish, they will be forced back, and (it will be said), “Taste the Penalty of Burning!”
Wrongdoers are dragged into Hell-Fire, many regret the choices made in their lives and will beg for another chance.
“‘If only We (sinners) had one more chance…’ Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire”
“Those who reject Faith: if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them. Theirs would be a grievous penalty.”
Do you think any of the Greek texts contain translations from
Aramaic? If yes, what are some examples?
Definitely; notice that some places give Aramaic words (talitha cumi in Mark 5:41); that shows the passage was originally in Aramaic.
“Translators have difficult task.” Quran do not have this problem. Muslims recite the original in Arabic.
You mentioned “Jesus is regularly portrayed as the prophet like Moses.” During Jesus time and after ascension, people were waiting for that prophet in Duet.18:18-19 “from their brethren(Arab) like Moses” is Prophet Muhammad. Vital evidence, contemporary who met Prophet Muhammad accepted him as prophet. Jesus and all prophets worshiped God of Quran.
I am concern because you are a kindhearted person with a charitable heart who help needy organizations. You deserve to be admitted to Paradise. You just simply have to accept the truth which is so crystal clear. GOD MOST MERCIFUL SENT QURAN TO SAVE MANKIND. PLEASE Save yourself from HELL FIRE.
“Verily We(God) have sent thee in truth as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner.”
“God speak the truth:”
“The truth is from thy Lord so be not at all in doubt.”
“Truth stands out clear from error; whoever believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God hear and know all things.”
“It is He(GOD) Who sent down to thee in truth the Book confirming what went before it; Law (Of Moses) Gospel (of Jesus).”
The Strange Chapter of Dr. Jewkyll and Mr. Hymn
Professor Ehrman, as I assume you are aware the Masoretic text has plural references
to the subject in Isaiah 53 and the surrounding context is clear that Israel is the subject
(kind of surprised the Palestinians haven’t claimed it for themselves). Modern Christian
Bible scholarship confesses that Israel is the subject so it is no longer an interesting
subject in the field of Polemics. Yet your favored NRSV (the best Christian translation I
think) still translates all of 53 as a singular (so to speak) subject.
Question: Regarding your Way from Believer to Skeptic when did you first accept that 53 referred to Israel?
http://skepticaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/
I knew that for years before I left the faith.