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Loading...One of the great things about being a research scholar is that if you’re diligent and paying attention, you learn new stuff all the time. For someone with an inquiring mind, it’s like striking gold with some fair regularity. And if you dig deep enough, you find things that very few people know about – often even scholars within your own field.
I first read the book of Revelation when I was seventeen; I had a college course on it two years later; and have studied it ever since. But it was not until a couple of years ago that I came to know something about the very oldest commentary we have on the book. Old not in the sense that it was written in, say, the 18th century, but old in the sense that it was written in the THIRD century. That’s old.
The commentary was written by a little-known church leader, Victorinus, who was bishop of Pettau (modern Ptuj in Slovenia). We don’t know a lot about him. He wrote a number of other biblical commentaries (we don’t have any of them) and appears to have suffered martyrdom during the “Great Persecution” of the emperor Diocletian in 304 CE. So he would have been writing probably around 260-90 CE or so.
The only copies we had of his commentary on Revelation have come down to us through the Middle Ages from a later edition of the book that had been prepared by the great Latin scholar Jerome (translator of the Bible) in the fifth century. Jerome had appreciated Victorinus’s work but not, well, all of it.
In it Victorinus had championed the idea that there would be a literal glorious paradise here on earth for all eternity at the end of time, for the saints. By the time of Jerome – who was very strictly ascetic and did not look favorably upon the pleasures of the flesh – that was far too carnal and sensual. Church fathers by Jerome’s time tended to think that Revelation was not giving a crass description of material glories in the age to come, but was a figurative description of what had happened in the course already of Christian history and what was happening at their time in the Christian church. And so when Jerome edited Victorinus’s commentary he left out the parts he didn’t like. This isn’t speculation. Jerome tells us that’s what he did.
It was not until 1918 that
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He “appears to have suffered martyrdom during the ‘Great Persecution’ of the emperor Diocletian in 304 CE.” Now that is some harsh criticism. At least today the worst a critic can do is say that something you wrote is terrible, but you survive to write something else. I am actually surprised that we have as much from the ancient world as we do.
Sorry — I don’t know what you’re objecting to.
I think JAS was simply commenting that being killed was harsh criticism. Kinda hard to keep writing if you’re dead.
The first part was just a poor joke, more clearly so if it needs to be explained. The second part was a genuine statement. It is amazing how many things do survive from ancient times, and not just stone monuments.
Yeah, I agree. Lucky us. Wish we were luckier!
I think Newton predicted that the Apocalypse would come in 2060, which I find very interesting. He did *not* believe it was coming in his own time.
Then there are the geniuses who believe China will amass an army of 200 million man and transport them through the Khyber pass. Do they realize that the Khyber pass is three meters wide at its narrowest point? The logistics would be challenging.
Once, I believed my parents that Jesus would soon return. “For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places” (Matthew 24:7). People would know that Jesus was soon to return when these signs occurred. Daniel Silliman, a Valparaiso University professor of religion, said a long tradition of Americans is “looking to prophecy as a way to absorb the chaos.”
But these events have always been happening, throughout history. Famines, disasters, pestilences, and chaos. If these are the signs, then no wonder Christians could never predict when Jesus would return.
Soon after Jesus was crucified in 33 A.D., people started to place his return in 66 AD. More than 175 times, dates have been predicted over the 20 centuries.
Would Jesus (the Prince of Peace) cast most of humanity into hell just because they did not believe in him? I would not worship a Jesus who was so evil and mad.
What fundamentalists were praying for was deranged.
Prophesies: Buddhism (Maitreya comes to peacefully (not violently) restore the Dharma, also Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism, shamans, indigenous traditions, Egyptian, Greco-Roman, Druid, Mayan, Hopi.
Speculation exists that the refusal of Jesus to come back on demand was the spur to monasticism. Part of the church organized itself around continued existence into the future in case he didn’t come back in the near term and others gave up everything worldly and retreated into the Egyptian desert to wait. They honestly believed in the immanent rebirth of Jesus and became hermits until Pachomius organized the first cenobitic communities. The hermits would weave mats out of reeds to earn their upkeep. Women joined later. John Cassian brought monasticism to Europe and took Origen with him. The rest of the church started out in people’s homes and, with legitimation, built churches which Pope Damasus ordered decorated. Damasus was Jerome’s ex-boss and mentor.
Unrelated question: You’ve said before that irenaeus is the first person to clearly attribute the four gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But What are the earliest manuscripts that have the titles of these gospels attached to them and how old are they? Thanks.
The oldest ms we have with all the Gospels together with titles is around 350-370 CE.
I think Jesus existed, but for a while I’ve also thought that If Jesus actually performed the miracles that the gospels say he did and if he was as popular as those authors say he was, we would read something about those things in contemporary secular sources. But your book “Did Jesus exist?” which I’m currently reading is making me question the latter assumption. In your book You mentioned that the only surviving works we have from a contemporary secular author in Palestine are from Josephus. So do you think it is inappropriate to assume that if Jesus was as popular and miraculous as the gospels suggest, we would read about it in other secular sources since we have only one such surviving source? (Or could one reasonably expect to find evidence about his miracles and popularity in the works of philo or in archeological sites?) thanks.
I think he absolutely was not as popular and well known as the Gospels suggest!
John the Baptist seemed to be much more influential than Jesus in his day, if judged by how much Josephus wrote about him compared to Jesus (Jewish Antiquities 18).
Also, from reading the history the way it’s presented by Josephus, it appears John the Baptist was killed after Jesus. What are your thoughts on this article which makes that case?
The Chronology of John the Baptist and the Crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth: A New Approach
https://www.academia.edu/40137424/_Revised_but_uncorrected_version_The_Chronology_of_John_the_Baptist_and_the_Crucifixion_of_Jesus_of_Nazareth_A_New_Approach
I’m afraid I haven’t read it.
Fascinating, but on another topic…
In your experience, do liberal Christians generally believe that there is something supernatural or transcendent in or about the cosmos, eg, an afterlife and/or an extremely powerful, conscious and intentional being?
Without something like that, it seems to me that Christianity is very good humanism-which is a very valuable thing-but not what I think of as a religion. To be theistic, a belief system has to make some kind of claims about the basic nature of reality, eg, that it’s ultimately and intentionally benign. It needs to be about more than ethics, human values, human hopes, or human imagination-even though those things are very important by themselves.
Yes, I’d say the vast majority do believe that.
Did Victorinus say who he thought the “Two Witnesses” were (or will be I guess) in chapter 11?
thanks
Elijah was one of them. He says many think the other was either Elisha or Moses. But he prefers Jeremiah.
Thanks again for an interesting and informative post.
I see that they initially had the same preterist view of the Roman Empire that I had for a decade or so, but it was still a view I had trouble convincing myself to be true. The conditions were too weak for my understanding, and I guess I was never very convinced about that either.
In any case, it was much better for me than this “fundamentalist” futuristic view that I had serious! problems with early on.
The more I study it from an “internal” perspective, the more I am convinced that this is a book (perhaps based on a spiritual vision) about our “Self” to borrow Jung¨s understanding of the word, where the visions, churches, dragons, experiences, number cities are symbols of forces , our conciousness within and about our individual journey. I claim that this “methodology” and ideas were also present at the time the book was written. Out of many challanges related to this view is that Christ becomes more of a companion and a “way” in a broader way of salvation, but still not less.
From this perspective, the vision seems much more obvious and much more understandable than ever before. Even some (almost a lot) of the symbols makes much more sense, to me at least.
I was an evangelical from early childhood to my early 20’s. The Book of Revelation was a scary vision of the future & at that time I was told that the end of the world was coming soon (I think Russia was supposed to be Magog or something like that 🙂 ). Is it true that Martin Luther did not like the Book of Revelation and if so, why did the Protestants keep the book in their version of the Bible?
He liked parts of it — especially when he could argue that 666 referred to the Pope! AS time went on he became more friendly to the book.
My question is: do humans have free will to change the future, if the book of Revelation is supposedly a future event? Could humanity avoid the wrath of god?
Not for Revelation, no.
Well that’s a bummer.
Does John’s use of the man, ox, lion, and eagle imagery from Ezekiel provide any insight as to the intended audience of Revelation?
It’s usually thoght that it shows, instead, how intimately fmailiar the author was with Hebrew Scripture itself — which, by the way, he never explicitly quotes!
It can be interesting to be open to the fact that these symbols are not so unique. You will find many “cherubim” beings mentioned in Revelation and Ezeciel in a wide variety of different mythologies, as they are found among the ancient Sumerian culture, Babylonian, Greek, Persian, Hindi, Egyptian mythology. Like some of these mythologies, they are often referred to as spiritual properties / qualities.
Another thing that is interesting is that the description of God’s chariot as Ezeciel saw in his vision, is very similar to the very old “Mandala” concept, a square in a circle. This symbol is still very actively used especially in Hinduism and Buddhism, but surprisingly as it sounds, it seems to appear as a symbol in so many cultures around the world, even from ancient times. This symbol may also draw attention to the description of the new Jerusalem measured in the Revelation. It also seems that it may have been described in Gnostic symbology as in the 5 seal symbols in the book of IEOU.
Even the famous Carl Gustav Jung addressed them in his cosmology about our own reality and our own “Self”.
I am tempted to suggest that there may have been a more widespread use of this type of symbology, and it seems to me that they draw lines to the spiritual or even psycho-spiritual understanding as Dr. Jung, in relation to an inner /spiritual ascension and / or awakening.
The widespread similarities of the symbols might suggest that these could have been observed in spiritual visions of some sort, and not only a concious presentation to a spesific audience for an intentional purpose.
I’m curious about the interpretation of the ‘whore of Babylon’. Jehovah’s Witnesses (the religion of my childhood) interpret this as meaning the Catholic Church, so they acknowledge the ‘Rome’ intepretation but then transfer it to the Pope who has his seat in Rome. I read a book about William Miller and Adventism (which is where JWs have their roots), and it seems that 19th century adventist likewise transferred the meaning of the ‘whore of Babylon’ to the Catholic church, and then expanded it in fact to encompass all traditional Christian denominations. The adventists exhorted their adherents to ‘come out of Babylon’, meaning to leave their traditional churches and embrace the adventist teachings.
Is this a purely adventist interpetation of the ‘whore of Babylon’? Or are there other protestant churches that equate this figure with the Catholic Church? Or is there another common interpretation of this figure among today’s evangelical churches?
Yes, there are a range of interpretations among the churches, and of course Rome and the papacy have been identifies with the Whore since Luther — and actdually before in various spiritual breakoffs from teh church in the Middle Ages. All that is talked about in the history of Norman Cohn, Pursuite of the Millennium. Critical schoalrs identify her with Rome itself, in John’s day, the empire that God was soon going to destroy.
Interesting. I hope to eventually read the 2011 translation.
I am curious. Did Victorinus say that the description of the Nero Redivivus legend in Revelation was an antitype that refers to future events?
No, he didn’t get into that kind of detail. The Sibylline Oracles talk about it though, from teh second century, not as an interpretation of REvelation but as a parallel tradition.
Thank you. And I am curious about the current scholarly consensus of the following:
Does any competent scholar of Revelation propose that John believed he was predicting a literal return of Nero? or is the description of the Nero Redivivus legend a symbol of a Roman Emperor in the near future? or something else? or no consensus on this?
There were rumors afloat that Nero was literally coming back, at the head ofo teh Parthian army; and several impostors years later claimed to be Nero. So probalby John means it literally, at least to the extent that he knows others think it’s going to happen.
The discussion I joined at school insisted that Revelation was a screed against the Roman empire and that John had written it as a Revelation because he wanted to keep his head on his shoulders. I like that one. We were urged to avoid the book by the NT faculty because “it was a diversion and not good for you.” The Biblical studies track had not offered a course in Revelation for the five years before I got there and for the five years after I left, either. Thomas Harris wrote a scary book titled “Red Dragon” about a serial killer obsessed with the image from the book. I’m fascinated by the fascination with Revelation as prophetic of future events among some segments of Christianity. When I was moderating a Christian forum on About some years ago, some of the posters swore by it.
Were there any ancient commentaries that you know of, that interpreted John’s Revelation as symbolizing what happens inside an individual believer? That the bizarre images represent inner conflicts and transformation, rather than what will actually happen on Earth? I know of some moderns who try to read it this way, and I’m wondering if there’s a more ancient lineage to this line of thinking.
No, I don’t think so.
When was Revelation and Daniel first recognized as part of the apocalyptic literary genre?
That’s a great question. I’m not sure when scholars began to realize that there was an entire genre of writings like this, icluding 1 Enoch, 2 BAruch, 4 Ezra etc. They knew the texts existed and were similar in many ways, but as to when they began talking about them as a genre… I don’t know.
Dr. Ehrman.
St. Gregory the Great wrote in his review of the Book of Job concerning the four beasts around the throne, that John was the eagle:
‘Doubtless designating by an eagle, the fourth living creature, John, who left the earth in his flight, because, through his subtle understanding, he penetrated, by beholding the Word, inward mysteries.’
St. Gregory the Great on Job, chapter 39:94
is there evidence that the book of revelation was believed to be the revelation recieved by jesus from god? and is there evidence that changes happened in the book of revelation? is the whole book of revelation the dream of a disciple?
i read ounce from a islamic scholar that only arabs used two edged swords.
and read a hadith that Makkah and kabba the muslims holy prayer place that abraham built is the holy city of god on earth and there is another one above kabbah above the holy city makkah in the seven heavens for the angles to worship god called Bait-ul-Ma’mur 70,000 new angels visit it daily
therefore according to my knowledge that which you might still havent realized is that there is alot of connections between jesus goodnews and prophet Ahmed ie muhammad who is given god kingdom on earth which jesus will descend to rule by it. the holy spirit angle gabriel heard from god his words and god sent angle gabriel the trustworthyspirit to reveal god words to prophet muhammad peace be upon him. the direction of prayer changed from jerusalem to the first house of god bakkah that abraham built.
The book claims to be teh revelation that Christ received from God that he handed on to an angel who then transmitted it to John; so yes, that was generally believed.
i think part of the confusion that happened to the jews or jesus disciples is that they might have thought jesus got ressurected which didnt happen but he was raised to heaven and someone else got crucified instead.so they thought the kingdom of god thats at hand is the paradise and hellfire and maybe thats why they made jesus the lamb thats mentioned to be slaughtered before eternal paradise and eternal hellfire. while the kingdom was meant to be at hand is the coming of prophet muhammad and his companions the best nation ever to be brought up for mankind. who will overpower the persians and the romans.
the truth about the lamb. is that jesus is not the lamb.but after the day of ressurection death will be brought in the form of a lamb. and it will be slaughtered. eternal curse will be on the evil disblievers in gehinnom. and the opposite eternal mercy for the righteous believers in paradise.
so thats my assumption that the jews got confused about jesus and made him to be the lamb and that they are living in the days that it will also happen to them and be raised just like jesus.
Great point on Nero Redivivus. Glad that didn’t happen.
Since Revelations hearkens Ezekiel, the Apocryphon of Ezekiel, that Josephus name-checks, is supposedly about reincarnation. Have you written on it yet?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphon_of_Ezekiel
(ps I haven’t bugged r/AskHistorians etc, yet for a proper dating on Yohannan Ben Zakkai’s faux reincarnation escapey from Jerusalem. (Supposedly dated AD 70, compiled in the Avot de-Rabbi Nathan.)
If commenters may make fun guesses:
So, scholars seem to agree that Biblical tetramorphs have antecedents.
A winged, human-headed bull in Iraq 710-705 BC. (Ezekiel is dated 593-571 BC but has “later additions”). We are missing lion paw paws:
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/W_1850-1228-4
What’s interesting imo, is that Revelations paints a picture that seems to credit prior representative artwork in a positive light, and Jewish folk didn’t embrace representative art. Their border-nation Nabataeans did.
Here is their early First Century human/eagle/lion:
https://t.co/WKGY04EBoN?utm_source=pocket_mylist
Like why don’t we just say that’s an ox tail 😂
Looks like possibly an anointing bowl at top? idk. There’s also the wreath (immortality/victory). Eagle is the Nabataean national emblem.
Since Nabs are into astrology (they have their own sequence of astro signs, different from others) the idea of the Revelation’s tetramorph being fixed signs — Earth, Air, Fire, Water, would make sense to me in that way.
What about the Revelations’ tetramorph representing lands where angels, etc come from?
(And maybe Jesus, patrilineally.) In the OT, angels can just be special *humans*, so why not in the NT?
Ox: Anatolia
Lion = Nile (Remember, Jesus is cat people)
Eagle = Nabataea
Human = humanity, Jewish, or a wild card
OX
Anatolia (Taurus Mountains, they look like oxen) is a cradle of civilization. First herding ~8,000 BC:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4066497/
This study argues for a millennials-earlier dating to their cuneiform:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270523007_Writing_in_Anatolia_The_Origins_of_the_Anatolian_Hieroglyphs_and_the_Introductions_of_the_Cuneiform_Script
The entire Fertile Crescent introduces the world’s first exponential income inequality, thanks to a lucky easy-life (the self-fertilizing Nile). Unlike the indigenous Europeans who got the Ice Age straw. Bar Bars
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt20d8801
Anatolians entered the Levant: 6,500 years ago:
“Aug 20, 2018 — Genetic analysis shows ancient Galilean farmers warmly embraced blue-eyed, fair-skinned immigrants from Iran and Turkey in the late Copper Age.”
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/MAGAZINE-mysterious-6-500-year-old-culture-in-israel-brought-by-migrants-1.6389513
~7 BC-18 AD, Strabo calls the Anatolian mountains the Taurii, too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Mountains
EAGLE
The Nabataean emblem (it’s argued well that classifying it as a deity is incorrect). Dushara, “Lord of Heaven,” refers to the Shara mountains southeast of the Dead Sea.
AN.ZU the “heavenly eagle” of Sumer predates that, if related.
LION
Panthera leo leo!
Sekhmet, the goddess of healing
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/20/science/discovery-shows-sacred-status-of-egyptian-lion.html
And there’s associated mountains.
Egypt’s a Holy Family *refuge*. So maybe these positive associations influences on Revelations’ tetrathing?
Jesus did promise a 100X better house, etc. Carnal stuff, not poverty. There’s an “And” clause:
“And everyone that hath forsaken houses or brethren or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold and shall inherit everlasting life”
The most implausible miracle to me wouldn’t be a public figure staging a retirement and a comeback.
It’s that a stone-stacker without mortar, public ed, diversity, books, figurative art; resources for personal contemplative time, or a secular storytelling culture — keeps telling hongry peasants the one about a king making servants gnash their teeth because they didn’t invest in outside commerce with zero direction.
Matthew 25:27
“Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury,” the least they could do.
Where did Jesus get his storytelling inspiration from?
Makes more sense if things happened like, idk, Luke said things happened — that there was a casting of lots, of a type, through astrology, and magi picked Jesus to be a prince — which could likely be of Nabataea, Galilee-Pereas’ border, because Jewish folk didn’t pick kings like that.
I wish I knew how Jesus developed his storytelling ability. Some people are just incredibly gifted…