A number of people have recently asked me virtually the same question about about my debates with conservative Christian apologists: In my opinion, when these people say things that don’t seem to make any sense, are they being dishonest, or do they genuinely believe what they say? (I’ll give my opinion and then ask yours.)
I’ll give an example from an event that some people have asked about. It was an “apologetics conference” hosted by an evangelical group; the attendees were almost entirely committed evangelical Christians. Normally at this kind of event, the organizers only have representatives of their own views, who give their talks to prove and affirm that their religious views are right. But for this conference they decided to have another voice represented, and that voice was me.
I had a great time. Two of the others speakers – Mike Licona and Craig Keener — were already friends of mine (a third I had never met before). We disagree up and down the line on most everything connected with religion in general and the New Testament in particular, but I consider Mike and Craig to be good and sincere people. The crowd was very welcoming and we all had some good laughs.
In their presentations the three of them argued that the Gospels do not have any bona fide contradictions (they each had different ways to approach the issue); I argued they have contradictions up and down the line. We all tried to support our views.
After we had made our presentations there was a panel discussion, in which the moderator appealed to one specific issue to see how we would each address it. It’s a minor but intriguing difference between the Gospels. In Mark Jesus sends the twelve disciples out on a mission to preach the coming kingdom, and he instructs them NOT to take anything with them (no bread, bag, or money) EXCEPT a staff (Mark 6:8); Matthew has the same passage, but in his account Jesus says the opposite: the disciples are NOT to take a staff (Matthew 10:10). And so the moderator asked us: which did Jesus really say? Take a staff or not?
My view was, and is, that the episode may not have happened at all, but if it *did* happen then obviously Matthew and Mark can’t both be right: Jesus either said to TAKE a staff or NOT to take a staff. Craig and the other presenter tried to explain that even though this may seem to be a contradiction, in fact it wasn’t (I can’t remember how they explained it; I think when I was a conservative evangelical I probably said the event happened twice, once when Jesus said to take a staff and the other time not).
But Mike took a different line. He said that Mark correctly reported what Jesus said. Matthew changed / reversed Jesus’ instructions.
And then it got even more interesting. The moderator asked if we thought Matthew’s account was “inerrant.” Craig and the other fellow – since they don’t see a contradiction – said Matthew does not contain an error. And then, somewhat to my surprise, Mike too said that Matthew was inerrant.
So in his view, Matthew reports the OPPOSITE both of what Jesus actually said and reverses what Mark (correctly, in Mike’s view) reports he said. BUT, that is not an error.
I was a bit incredulous. If you want to know what Jesus said, and you read Matthew, you would think he said the opposite of what he really did say. How could that not be a contradiction of Mark? And if Mark is right in what Jesus said, Matthew is wrong, how could that not be an error?
Mike had an explanation. In his view, Matthew was fully cognizant of what he was doing when he changed Mark’s account. This was standard practice among ancient biographers — to alter accounts they had inherited when they wanted to emphasize one point or another. Since Matthew was doing it on purpose it was not an “error.”
I suppose on one level that might kind of, sort of, make sense? In this view Matthew didn’t make an “unconscious mistake.” He made a “deliberate alteration.” But well … really? It’s not an error? It gives a false report of what Jesus said. Sure seems like an error to me, whether Matthew meant to contradict mark or just did it by accident.
In my view it’s like this: if I give you a piece of false information – for example, if I say that after he lost the election in 1980 Jimmy Carter divorced his wife Rosalynn (which he did not!), then, well, it’s not true. It’s an error. Maybe I simply made a mistake: I thought they had gotten a divorce but I was wrong. Or maybe I I intentionally said they did because I had some agenda or wanted to make a point. But in either case, whether I say it on purpose or by accident, my report is wrong. You would not say that my statement was inerrant.
Or .. more simply: if you ask someone for directions and they *intentionally* give you the wrong ones: would you say that the directions are completely accurate without error, since the person had reasons for what she said?
I’m just giving one solitary example out of a hundred that could be made. Apologists often insist on views that make others not in their camp scratch their heads. If you’re in the camp of head-scratchers, you know what I mean and no doubt can cite far better examples of your own. I pick this one simply because it’s fairly easy to explain.
But the question I’ve been being asked is: do I think apologists who say such things REALLY believe them? Or are they being dishonest, knowing full well that they can’t be right but insisting they are because in the end that will, in their view, lead to a better result (e.g., the conversion of unbelievers).
My personal sense is that whatever their deep conscience is telling them below the surface, they really believe (on the surface, or at least in their heads) what they say and do not think they are presenting falsehoods. That is, I personally suspect that (all of the time? Most of the time?) they are not being dishonest or at least trying to be dishonest. That what they say is what they genuinely believe. At least I think that’s what I think.
But what do you think?
[/mepr-show]
To answer your question: I agree that conservative evangelicals believe what they say, even when it seems nonsensical to other folks.
Since you didn’t recall the explanation of the first two commentators, out of curiosity I went searching. Here is one explanation that I saw on more than one site, for those who are interested/curious.
https://apologeticspress.org/take-it-or-leave-it-295/
The short answer appears to be: Mt and Mk use two different Greek words for “take” (as translated by NRSV). The ESV even translates them differently: “acquire” versus “take”. That allows them to claim no contradiction.
Wow. Thanks.
This reminds me of the potentially endless argument in first semester law school legal drafting on the difference between unlawful and illegal.
Did you find the explanation at the apologetics press site to be convincing at all? I’m no expert in Greek, so the use of “ktesthe” (provide) in Matthew versus “airo” (take) in Mark make their explanation plausible. Or is that something only found in the NKJV, possibly just a bad translation or inferior Greek source?
Yeah, not really. I think the issue has to be what would have motiveated Luke/Matthew to alter the words at all, if he/they found them perfectly satisfying as they were. As others have pointed out, it’s such a small detail that i’s not really much of a hill to die on. I’ve dealt with it only becuae the moderator of the debate brought it up. There are actually BIG issues out there!
BTW, it’s a blessing you can share a stage with foot soldiers of the “inerrancy” cult. Sure beats resorting to less rarefied deprogramming tactics….
It doesn’t seem like dishonesty, but a different definition of inerrancy. Wasn’t his view a theological one? Were theological explanations acceptable in this context?
It’s be acceptable to many people, but I think he was trying to make a historical argument.
It is usually hard enough to understand what apologists like Sean McDowell are saying, let alone what they are thinking. I don’t think I would expend much effort on such a task as it probably cannot be resolved.
Goodness I wish I lived in London and could have this convo in person.
My opinion is that it depends. I’m positive some main stream preachers know the “truth” about the Bible. Being their MO is for “man” to live happy and prosperous. Some tactics are questionable but whatever.
How can these lifelong Bible students not know the truth ? If you can read you will know the Bible has some compelling contradictions. I think the contradictions are subtle clues to the truth (truth as I know it which is minimal at best…lol).
Biblical conclusions from my simple research was devastating at first. I could’t eat, I had nightmares….it was awful. But I stayed with the Bible and began to see other life truths/lessons emerge.
Others I think have limited complex reasoning skills and lack the ability to read between the biblical lines. Others I think are completely brainwashed, others I think know the truth in the back of their subconscious but can not brave the reality of it and therefore are “defenders of the faith”.
The staff issue seems to parallel what happens as stories with many details are verbally passed along – some items get forgotten or placed in a different order. The staff being allowed (in Mark) makes sense (taking the staff for symbolic support) and I would guess that a later story retelling of Mark or Q remembered to include a staff but placed it in the wrong context. Not taking a staff seems a bit too passive if one is to be spreading God’s word. But maybe there was some regional issue with a staff as some point in time there (wood shortage, covid, staff-size envy, etc…) It takes a major reckoning to shake one out of their personalized realities. Faith is not easily shaken. The “two different stories” argument was certainly a reasonable way to deflect the arrows! Kudos to those who have the skills and understanding to defend their faith – just as one might also defend their family, friends and country. I do not think they are being dishonest – I think they are just trying to be faithful in the best way they know.
Gosh, RE.. I love that “ some regional issue with a staff”; reminds me so much of religious discussions today (I am more amused than critical). People with the Divine spark inside them, trying so hard..
To quote from Paul Simon’s The Boxer. “Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”.
It is likely a mixed bag. For many it may be simple confirmation bias, some may face consequences if they have signed a statement of faith as a condition of employment. In other cases they are simply making money by doing debates and veracity isn’t even in the equation.
Like in those old westerns where the fastest gunfighter was always having to watch his back because bragging rights went to person who could outdraw him. Your popularity has put an apologetics target on your back and so,, if they can take out Ehrman they become an apologetics rock star. Never expect those people to concede one inch.
Anymore I see much of the world through song lyrics. So I leave you with this light caution about – at least some “friendly” apologists.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag_B6KF9CLI
skeptik
Platinum since 2020
They are starting from the standpoint of *needing* each of these points – both doctrinal and historical- to be true. Because if any ground is given, the whole belief structure starts to crumble. If you need something to be true, you will go to any length to synthesize contradicting truths.
I remember being a Christian, and as long as there *was* an explanation – it didn’t have to be a good one – I was satisfied. Combine that with the sincere belief that you are a spiritual warrior who must defend your faith, literally fighting on the spiritual plane.. it’s a difficult spell to break out of.
Well, being a historical scholar seems to be a challange in some environments ,,, .
It can very well be that we as humans are Minds that develop our Souls, but our free will can indeed oppose it. We even have a Mind that we can use according to Will. So, yes, they can very well believe in their own on/over the edge narratives.
Good luck !
I suspect that many, perhaps most, apologists are in some sense sincere — but not all. But I can’t read minds.
However, it seems to me that, in the discussion you described, the goalposts got moved quite a bit. What started out as a discussion about contradictions morphed into one about error and motivations. Different things, though sometimes related.
My born again sister recently asked one of the gurus of the breakaway Presbyterian church when I suggested Paul did not write Ephesians. (Very important to that sect because of the “select”.) Answer was easy–everything was fine until the 19th century, he said, when this new group of academics came along and started questioning stuff. She and he were satisfied with the answer and see no errors in the Bible.
Yeah, kind of like medicine. Everything was fine until those academics started talking about germs.
“… they really believe (on the surface, or at least in their heads) what they say and do not think they are presenting falsehoods. ”
I think this is true for the people who have been told that these are the correct explanations all of their lives and that if someone says something different, then that person is in error.
But I also think that there are pastors who have been taught the correct explanations for much of the Bible while in school, and then teach a congregation what the congregation wants to hear so that they keep their paycheck.
I also think there are some pastors who may have went to a denominational school that taught incorrect explanations. But then after graduating, through reading and studying on their own learn about the correct explanations but keep that information to themselves, again so that they keep their paycheck.
I also know about pastors who have tried to share new found information and after a lot of congregational fighting, lose their jobs.
Dr. Ehrman,
Perhaps you could ask them what license did the gospel writers use to overwrite the words of there divine savior, and by whose authority the license is granted.
I would say that we are not a particularly logical species, and that even those of us who are trained in reason and in clear thinking are prone to clinging to contradictory ideas. That’s especially true of ideas we picked up in childhood – think of them as “comfort food.”
So, for the most part, I would not say they are being dishonest. That does NOT apply to those grifters who make their living by inveighling credulous folks into parting with their life savings so they can add another plane to their collection.
Were I a biblical conservative apologist; I might turn for guidance to Calvin’s commentaries:
“.. there is an ambiguity in the use of the Hebrew word svt, (shebet;) and the Evangelists, though they wrote in Greek, used the word rha’bdos in various senses. Matthew and Luke mean by it a rod which would be burdensome to the person who carries it: while Mark means by it a walking-stick to support and relieve a traveller.”
I think that Calvin’s explanation, if you unpack it, implies a position consistent with Mike’s. Mark reports Jesus as enjoining the Twelve to take a walking stick only – and I understand Calvin to maintain that Jesus actually said just that. But in Matthew’s and Luke’s understanding, ‘staff’ refers rather to a more substantial implement – presumably for a protection; and so they adjust the report to be consistent with the injunction not to carry anything burdensome.
So the instruction to carry a walking stick is inerrant; as too is the instruction not to carry anything burdensome.
Though Calvin emphasises, as he always does, that Jesus’s injunctions should always be interpreted in their Gospel contexts; these are not universal rules for Christian missions.
Note: the two contrasting stories also conflict on whether sandals are to be worn or not. Matthew says the instruction was to not wear sandals while Mark says the instruction was to wear sandals. Maybe the terrain was different – all staffs/rods may not be the same but sandals are sandals!!
If the two versions of the story are describing the same event then saying that one is discussing sticks and the other staves only cements the contradiction. In one telling Jesus is instructing on the subject of walking sticks and the other he is instructing about a staff. Same event, different instructions.
This gets to the definition of dishonesty. Does self-deception count? Denial? Motivated reasoning?
I myself think this kind of cringey intellectual flailing is dishonesty. Lying to oneself doesn’t negate the lie.
Question: before I asked the question I want to say I appreciate your scholarship in this field and I’ve watched some of your debates between lacona and Atkins I think it was who is I think Catholic , and I think they came up a little bit short anyways back to my question. what is the difference between pseudonymity and pseudepigrapha? And I read an article and looked at a couple definitions I’m really kind of a layperson but they really just sound like they mean the same thing.
Different people used different definitions. My way of differentiating them is that “pseudonymity” refers to any book that is circulated under the name of someone who did not actually write it and that Pseudepigrapha refer to books whose authors *claim* to be someone who did not actually write it. And so Matthew is pseudonymous, in my view, becuase I do not think Matthew wrote it. But it is not a pseudepigraphon because they author was anonymous (did not claim to be Matthew); only someone later claimed it was written by Matthew. Pseudonymous but not a pseudepigraphon.
Great thank you Dr Ehrman!
That was a great explanation, so works like the gospels are pseudonymous and works like the 1 and 2 Timothy are pseudepigrapha. This helps!
Dr. Ehrman
It’s off topic but Dale Allison told
Mike Licona during a discussion
regarding the authorship of the
gospels and the criterion of
multiple attestation that if
Christians believe that Mark
wrote Mark and Luke wrote Luke,
it immediately undermines their
position on criterion of multiple
attestation because in acts Mark
and Luke interact with each other,
they are companions, travel
together,probably sit around the
camp fire swap stories. Any thoughts
on that? Dale mentioned also that
he was convinced by you that empty
tomb is not a good evidence for
resurrection. Dale’s modesty and
intellectual honesty make him easy
to like.
No, I don’t think that’s how the criterion of independent attestation works. It is a literary claim of the relationship of texts, not the hsitorical claim of the relationship of authors. But yes, he’s unusually honest about balancing arguments, as judicious as they come.
I believe most apologists are trying to resolve the cognitive dissonance of holding onto their beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. I suspect some have a profit motive. We all know that gospel preachers can lie, whether it be about church finances, illicit affairs, etc. – so it’s certainly plausible that apologists, too, can deliberately lie for various reasons. But we can’t really judge without overt evidence of their underlying motives; all we can do is act honestly ourselves and seek and speak for the truth.
Headscratchers are one thing. I’d button my wallet pocket around them before they picked it saying they inerrantly honestly believed they were saving me from the sin of greed!
( you don’t have to post this.. I’m just trying to write my thought on this fantastic topic)
I think it just revolves around power.
I’ve thought that since my non-believing days.
Everyone wants to be relevant and have some attention paid to them.
When I was a kid, most of the proselytizers weren’t from my circle ( athletes) as a matter of fact aside from their proselytizing, they would have never been noticed at all
They hung out at the city parks, school hallways, I remember one lighting a match once, blowing it out then flipping the hot end on my arm and yelling “ that’s where you are gonna go when you die!”
I think Dr. Ehrman points out often that writings are changed to fit other writers purposes.
I just have always felt a social separation from believers. I don’t believe, they do.
They change the meaning of scripture because it’s been done often for reasons that are more about personal relevance than seeking truth.
I think they believe what they are saying. It may not make sense for you and me, but it makes some kind of sense for them.
More generally, I claim we tend to think people can not possibly believe something which to us sounds absurd. Meaning: we make the mistake of imagining that people are faking belief far more often than we make the opposite mistake (of assuming that someone really means it when in reality they are faking it). What sounds absurd to us does not sound absurd to them.
Even people who claim to believe in bizarre conspiracy theories are usually not pretending: they really believe in whatever absurdity they claim to believe in.
I think you would have stopped participating in these events if they featured dishonest apologists. Myself, I have a hard time imagining what would motivate an apologist to make false statements, but then again, I’m pretty naive and have little experience with the personality types involved in those presentations. Not to name names, but are there individuals with whom you refuse to share a stage? Can you share your reasons why (but only if you believe the revelation would not have negative consequences)?
Yes, there are some that I refuse to share a stage with, normally because I think they are unpleasant human beings who think scorn and ridicule is a form of intellectual exchange. Some are fundamentalists and at least one is a mythicist — so it’s a personality thing rather than a positional one.
I’m pretty sure I know which mythicist you are referring to Dr. Ehrman. I do find it unfortunate as I think a debate between the two of you would be entertaining and enlightening and I think within the context of a debate he would be polite and professional.
I know many in this world are just trying to make sense of it all, believe full faithfully in something untrue ultimately makes you tell or perpetuate lies. Faith is that conduit making Dr Ehrman tell it like he sees it and not how it has to be.
Wow, what a post. I especially appreciate this one because it poses questions I have been asking myself most of my adult life. I am fascinated with Christianity precisely because of these types of conundrums, most specifically the notion that the NT with all its contradictions and discrepancies can possibly be the inerrant word of God.
While I am definitely in the head-scratching camp, I do believe that there are plenty of people, of good faith and conscience, who have found ways to reconcile these discrepancies in their own minds, and truly believe the reconciliations they have arrived at. I can’t fathom the mental contortions they have to perform to do this, especially the scholars whose education has included detailed study of the history of the NT. But I don’t think they are being intentionally dishonest.
However, there are plenty of people out there who use religion dishonestly, even maliciously. We see them in the news and on social media every day. These are the ones that scare me, and here is where my biggest problem with the “honest” apologists lies: they ultimately give credence to the dishonest ones, and make it all that much more difficult to tell them apart.
Just to point out that most Christians are unlikely to believe in biblical inerrancy. Many of us think that there were a variety of folks trying to tell the stories they’d heard about Jesus and make sense of them. And those who mostly think they are stories and don’t care much about how they diverge.
My dad taught me most of what I know about apologetics, either directly or through the books he gave me, or just left around the house. By the time I was a teenager, I had read C.S. Lewis, Josh MacDowell, a heck-ton of Intelligent-Design-type stuff, etc.
He’s a pretty proud person. I think he’s really very bad at evaluating research, especially science. And while he’s not as judgmental or fundamentalist as when I was a kid, he’s still pretty set in his ways. But I don’t think for a second he’s intellectually dishonest. He is fully convinced in his own mind that the inerrant Bible (as interpreted through a dispensationalist lens) and the natural order of the cosmos tell the exact same story, zero contradiction. Zero paradox even.
In fact, in his head, anyone who DOESN’T hold exactly the same feelings and beliefs about Christianity as him is kidding themselves and being intellectually dishonest. He can be very frustrating to talk to. I rarely try to engage him in any kind of debate. But… is he lying? No. Is he wrong about some things? Yes, very sincerely wrong.
I think the ‘inerrant-because-intended’ argument is creative. But not very useful. If ‘inerrant’ means ‘intended communication’ then all lies are ‘inerrant’.
Of course you can argue that it is ‘inerrant’ because God inspired it, and God, by definition, cannot err.
But why would you, since this is true of anything you care to dream up and attribute to any god?
A further comment: ‘believe’ is an interesting concept. I try not to ‘believe’ things. I try to ‘conclude’ things from facts and observations. But we are, I think, hard-wired to believe.
There are many reports of communists, persecuted by Stalin, going willingly to their deaths in the ‘belief’ that their deaths were sanctioned by the Party and must, therefore be a good thing. Their ‘belief’ was a way of rationalising impossible-to-rationalise situations.
Yup, good point: “all lies are inerrant”!
I think you’re too smart to believe this, but, at the same time, too noble and polite to acknowledge what you really believe.
The way I see this is fairly simple and straightforward, I think: apologists (especially in public debate settings) simply CANNOT concede anything demonstrating a hole in their narrative – and, by the way, that’s what I love about not being like them: it is OK to be wrong, it is OK to change your mind; in fact, it’s not just OK, it manifests intellectual clarity (and honesty).
So, in a nutshell, I believe that in many instances they are dishonest. And I think this is also very obvious by the fact that they never modify their arguments even when they are showed to be dubious or even flat out false. For example, William Lane Graig has been employing the Kalam argument, which is predicated on the premise that the universe had a beginning, for decades, even though cosmologists and physicists like Penrose or Carroll have explained to him that we don’t know for sure that the universe (the totality of it, not the observable part) had a beginning.
You know, I agree, they’re (most of the time) not trying to be dishonest. But I’ll tell you: I’m a William Lane Craig fan and I think he sometimes crosses the line into being intellectually dishonest. Have you heard his argument against the maxim that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? He actually claims this is false. The standard argument he gives is to imagine that you won the lottery. This would be an extraordinary claim but if you were to tell people they would be rationally justified for believing you simply on your say-so which is not extraordinary evidence. This, he argues, is a perfect example of a scenario where an extraordinary claim does not require extraordinary evidence. I don’t think it requires a genius to see what’s wrong with that. Dr. Craig is an extremely smart and capable man. How is it possible that he can stand up on a stage and say such a thing, over and over and over? My sense is that he puts a lot of importance onto specifically the debate format itself and so some of what he says can be justified to himself as long as it undercuts something his opponent says.
I would think that saying these things is necessary to protect their identity. If they identify as a certain type of Christian, then they must protect that identity at all costs. If they would simply not identify as a certain type of Christian, then the facts will lead these folks to the right conclusion. As a dissertation chair, I have to remind my doctoral students that we’re just designing research and not trying to “prove” something. The research will lead us to a certain place and that’s that.
Essentially, it’s the problem of do we “believe” then see (make the facts fit the belief or identity)… or do we “see” (an analysis of the facts ) and then believe.
Assuming Mt knew Mk, Mt either inadvertently or deliberately altered the wording, no? Your friends
understand the change as deliberate. One can easily see why. Mk begins with taking ‘only’ a staff before listing things not to bring. Mt reworks the instructions with the result that the staff is appended to the end of the list of other ‘unbringables.’
It does seem simpler to conclude a deliberate alteration.
But is this a ‘contradiction?’ They say ‘yes’ in terms of the case of the staff, but ‘no’ in terms of the thrust of the set of instructions: divine urgency and dependency. Mt, they conclude, has made a deliberate change of the staff’s relevance – a small detail – in order to emphasize for his readers the main point of the instructions found in Mk, not to contradict it.
One is inclined to wonder why Mt thought the alteration was needed and this perhaps is a small basis for thinking the change was inadvertent.
Either way your friends hold to a perfectly defensible literary conclusion so I don’t see this case as a good basis for questioning their authenticity. Rather, it’s an example of reasonable literary analysis not getting trumped by theological bias.
Yeah, it’s not a detail I’ve ever mentioned on my own, to my knowledge (though maybe I did somewhere sometime??) (maybe even in writing??); it only came up in this debate because the moderator thought it was a particularly interesting detail.
Agree Chasdot. Some Christians are so completely invested in their Christian lifestyle that to not believe that the Bible is inerrant is simply not an option. All family members work for the church, all friends are part of the church, and they have been trained their entire life to believe what they have been taught.
I think they’re being dishonest about their dishonesty.
At your professional level, they know they are lying, yet, find comfort in wearing their deception. In fact, the more intricate the deception, the more the attractive they find themselves; and often, the more attractive others find them as well. As an ol’ attorney, I totally get it. However, as a vessel for “truth”, it never made sense why people ignore the obvious in order to perpetuate the lie. Lol, that’s why I was eventually asked to leave the church that I helped create. So, the bottomline is that you can’t lie to yourself, but you can look good doing it!
They are true believers. “So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for every
thing one has a mind to do.” ~ Ben Franklin
As a member of the Unification Church of Sun Myung Moon, which I belonged to for a decade, and during which time I lectured to prospective converts and gave court testimony about our beliefs, I think people in the throes of rigid beliefs try to have it both ways. To believe things that are unsupported by common sense, logic, or reason, one must direct the mind toward what religious people call “faith.” Many untruths are said with the conviction of faith. Those people likely would pass a lie detector test.
But there is another approach used by religious people which some call “heavenly deception.” This allows a believer moral justification to say things they know are not true for the sake of those they are speaking to.
The salvation or spiritual life of the person they are converting or instructing is paramount. Mike Licona’s argument that both Mark and Mathew are inerrant is probably a mixture of each. He probably has convinced himself the arguments make sense while another voice tells him the arguments are illogical – he dismisses the worry because it is so important for believers not to lose faith. And for you not to win!
Hi Bart,
No doubt apologists (generally speaking) are first and foremost focused on their business and their customers, and remember this when making pronouncements. But the fine line (or thick line) that I believe diferenciates them from you is that you use a microscope and they don’t even use a magnifying glass. By using a microscope, you see all the flaws; and under a microscope those flaws look very large. But they are not examining scripture to find the flaws but to find the commonalities. To them the staff is of no importance (minuscule) compared to both scriptures agreeing that Jesus send out His disciples, and therefore to them what they have in common trumps what they do not, and therefore to them there is no error (worth discussing).
The problem is that there are errors worth discussing (the staff not being one of them). The problem with your approach is that you could never see the beauty of Monet’s paintings or a fresco because you would always be standing too close. For some things to be understood, the viewer needs to step back and see the big picture. I believe Monet’s paintings, frescos, and the Bible fall into this category.
Dennis
Oh, I completely agree. It would be CRAZY to look at the details of teh Monet (I’m a big fan) and not appreciate the whole. The vast majority of the time in my personal life, I’m looking at the painting (not just of Monet, but of the Bible), not the brush strokes.
As far as I know, we are yet to determine how to read someone’s mind with any significant probability. As such then, we take what that someone says as exactly what’s on their mind, what they believe–we grant them the benefit of the doubt. So, if the apologist says “this is not an error,” then, like you Prof Ehrman, I scratch my head and accept sh/e is being honest.
Dr. Ehrman, backing up a couple chapters in Mark, there’s a verse where Jesus talks about “the secret of God’s kingdom.” Do you think one could argue that the author implies that Jesus was relaying information secretively? He tells those close to him, “The secret has been given to you.” In short, he says those outside get parables so they can’t understand. Matthew and Luke both mention the secret and not understanding, but seem to alter this story somewhat.
Yes, that’s definitely Mark’s view, and Matthew and Luke change it.
I just love that right after the “secret/mystery” comment he says to the disciples:
“Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand all the parables?”
The allegorical explanation of the parable that follows is of course a Markan addition that he never would have offered. The point is for the parable to land on one’s intuition and cause the awakening to love that all sages of the wisdom tradition have taught throughout history. Then there is the startling and paradoxical Isaiah quote straight from God’s mouth:
“…they may indeed look, but not perceive,
and may indeed listen, but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.”
This one actually makes me cry with its poignant poetry. I imagine the disciples’ familiarity with Isaiah and then hearing his desperate question to God in their own minds: “How long?”
If you’re referring to all apologists (i.e the average person-in-the-street as well as the famous ones), I think you will find that they, like most demographics, exist on a spectrum. Some are simply motivated by belonging to a group (usually the dominant group in their milieu), and probably don’t know much about what they believe, and just parrot the script which they believe follows the groups’ values. They probably don’t much care one way or the other (the path-of-least-resistance types, or as they put in Seinfeld, “just go along Jerry, go along). I imagine there is another group of manipulative, shameless types, who just reinforce whatever values give them the most power, and may well not give a toss whether the Bible is true or not. A third group is probably like Licona and his ilk, believing what they say is the truth, and they genuinely don’t see any contradictions in the Bible.
I do wonder, what someone like Licona would do, if he one day decided that his previous views were wrong. He has so much invested in his current MO, would he just quietly go along, quietly fade into the background, or come out and reveal himself ?
I often wonder that too. And have even asked him about it!
Thanks Bart. What was Mike’s answer (if you don’t mind me asking) ?
I’m afraid I’m going to have to pass on that one.
Fair enough. Thanks Bart.
I’m just dying to know who that moderator was! It sounds like that guy is not afraid to ask tough questions.
*AHEM*
😀
Haha.
I would love to get your reaction – both “imagining” that you were present in that specific case and to the broader issue. 😇
Apologists like William Lane Craig are terribly dishonest and manipulative. Craig knows that the god of the bible was just one of many ancient near eastern tribal deities believed on by primitive and superstitious people in the mid to late bronze age, no more real than Baal, Yahweh’s consort Asherah or Moloch. However, he never tells his audience these things. Instead, he makes his philosophical arguments for ‘God’ as if it’s not necessarily the bible’s god. Then in nearly the same breath, he will follow up with the claim that ‘God’ is real and able to be known and experienced through faith in Jesus. I think Christian apologists don’t really care about what is true or real. They only care about winning a debate or converting someone.
I’m one of the people who’s asked you this question. I don’t know if they’re sincere. I don’t know. I’m genuinely curious, because the answers sometimes are so obviously silly. Don’t they have a sense that they would actually gain more listeners if they were transparent? (Well, at least listeners that aren’t fundamentalist.)
Whether or not it’s dishonest, it sure feeeeeeeeels dishonest to me.
Regarding the passage you cited, whether or not Matthew made an “error”, one or both of the passages are “in error”.
They certainly might be quite sincere but in the same way as а mother when she is trying to vindicate her mischievous child. Their logic just has а different set of priorities.
Bart, how early do you think is the practice of (or principle behind) the veneration of relics? Is this an early Christian practice. How early?
There’s some evidence of it in the Martyrdom of Polcarp, which used to be dated confidently around 155 CE or so, but now many of us suspect that it is a forgery from the early third century. Off hand I can’t think of anything earlier. After Polycarp had been burned to death:
2. And so, afterwards, we removed his bones, which were more valuable than expensive gems and more precious than gold, and put them in a suitable place.
3. There, whenever we can gather together in joy and happiness, the Lord will allow us to commemorate the birthday of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already engaged in the struggle and as a training and preparation for those who are about to do so. (My translation)
If Matthew supposedly plagiarised most of Mark, why would the author make such an error? Or is that passage of the New Testament one of the independently sourced? Quite confusing.
I wouldn’t call it plagiarism, since that involves taking someone else’s work and putting it in your own name; but Matthew wrote anonymously. He didn’t make an “error” in the sense that he made a mistake. He intentionally changed it to suit his own purposes, as he did hundreds of times.
Talk about going to war over trivial disputes! Whether Matthew changed the staff thing on purpose or some later scribe did by mistake or motivation – WHO CARES??!! But the fact that Matthew and Luke are engaged in writing “historical fiction” is so indisputable since they both OBVIOUSLY pulled Joseph’s genealogy out of fairytale land and contradict on whether the apostles went to Galilee or stayed in Jerusalem, etc. renders the staff discussion unbelievably ridiculous and should embarrass all involved that claim to call themselves “educators”. Of course, you excluded, Bart. 🙂 Dishonest or simple human ego defense? That can only be answered by them if they have the ability to honestly/objectively examine their conscience, which judging by what’s going on in this country lately is in short supply.
I agree. I was *almost* an innerantist as a teenager (I could never quite swallow the whole pill even without having the benefit of an Ehrman education!). I think it is the belief of the inspiration and authority (and hence inerrancy) of scripture that overrides the evidence for errors and contradictions, such that one honestly thinks “there must be a *better* explanation” in keeping with that authority, inspiration and inerrancy.
I wouldn’t have as much experience with them as you, but my own limited experience falls into two types. Basically they’re not being dishonest as you say, it’s either:
(i) It’s simply an a priori fact for them that the gospels etc are all true and honest. Given that fact one is then looking for how to resolve these apparent contradictions. The explanations sound weird when you are being more neutral in your approach, but are in a sense “the most natural ones” given their assumptions.
(ii) This one is much more common. They don’t possess enough knowledge to collate all the facts. So they come up with an ad hoc explanation for reconciling two things, not aware it’s incompatible with a third fact or can only work within the narrow view of comparing two passages in isolation and not a general awareness of the ancient Mediterranean. I’ve seen similar, though less exaggerated, explanations for various other historical cultures. For example many expositions on Ancient Egyptian religion don’t work when archaeological finds and proper knowledge of the language are included, but many don’t possess all the requisite knowledge. So this one is less exceptional or specific to Biblical history than (i) above.
I have watched a number of your debates, the ones regarding the bible being inerrant are the most entertaining for me. It always amazes me to watch the one you are debating squirm and crawfish when they are nailed down regarding an obvious contradiction. A saying comes to mind when I see this happen (I’m developing a pattern in your comment section) “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull____.” A perfect example of this was your debate with Jimmy Akin. His extended response to the differences in the two different genealogies was more of a word salad load of why there wasn’t a problem there. The begat’s are plain, there isn’t any room for anything but the conclusion that there is a definite problem there. To answer your question, yes they are being dishonest when they are pinned down. For them it is more important to be right than to be truthful.
In my view, after having worked with joining the four Gospels into one continuous narrative, yes I ran into this issue. But I have to admit, I made the choice of staying with Matthews’ account. I had two reasons; 1) Matthew had a more detailed account, and 2) I didn’t see any other writing in the Gospels anywhere, where Jesus or anyone used a staff. After getting into most of the OT, of which the NT does make many references, whether by the Gospel writers or by Jesus himself, Moses’ use of a staff, became his grip of strength and well known by the Jews. I also thought I read of the Pharisees using a staff, to mimic Moses. However, Jesus’ strength was from his words, “By their fruits you shall know them”. Therefore, I felt that Jesus was not copying Moses in any way, but rather, leading purely by his own words of power and love. I got the impression, that Mark was drawing from everyone’s impression of how Moses had presented himself to the Hebrews, back in his day. But that’s just me.
There are lots of people who argue passionately for things that have almost no chance of being true. It’s usually hard to decide who are the liars and who are the true believers. On most topics I suspect a common answer is a little bit of both. In the case of apologists, I’m usually more inclined to think they believe what they say, but their starting assumption is that every last word of the Bible is literally true. Then you just need to subconsciously fit the evidence to your preconceptions. Even here there might be exceptions though. Televangelists and mega-church pastors who get rich off their work have a motive to be dishonest. (James Randi’s exposure of Peter Popoff is a good example.)
I agree with Bart’s explanation. The men Bart debated seem to be victims of a cognitive bias that cements in place an easy explanation that fits their preconceived notions. Both an intellectual toolset and an emotional toolset are required for a person to reject an idea that is attractive to them. I think that endorphins guide the development of pathways in the brain and the vast majority of people can’t think critically about questions where a feel-good answer is embedded in their brains.
Our culture is bifurcated. The court system, financial markets and academia are institutions that thrive on rigorous feedback but in many aspects of life, ideas don’t receive objective scrutiny. A belief that Elvis is still alive will keep someone off a corporate board but it may get them a reality show and a large following on social media.
I was raised a fundamentalist, and still worship with many who profess to believe in inerrancy. My experience is that they believe that they believe it, but really don’t. They just think they do. They are attempting to defend their faith against the onslaught of liberalism. When shown obvious contradictions, if nothing else they can fall back on, “there’s some things we just won’t understand until we get to Heaven.” Many of them are actually quite relieved when they are liberated from inerrancy. I have a few tacts I take to help them face what they really believe. One that is usually effective: consider a child with a rare but treatable disease, whose parents are cult members that doesn’t allow modern medicine. They take the child to church to be anointed with oil and prayed over, and refuse medical treatment. I say we ought to send men with guns to forcibly remove the child from their custody and give the medical care. I get unanimous agreement, and then point out the parents are doing exactly what the Bible says. But I don’t believe it, and they don’t either. Just face it.
You debated Peter Williams a couple years back, and I believe he was dishonest. I read his book, and in one chapter he discusses the Synoptic Problem and gives a chart showing that the majority of both Matthew and Luke are copy and paste versions of Mark with slight edits according to most scholars. In another chapter, he brags that there are more/a comparable number of words in the gospels as there are in the biographies of Tiberius. Once one adjusts the word counts down for the copying and pasting of Matthew and Luke, his word count comparison becomes much less impressive. Not to mention the fact that the biographies of Tiberius are typically considered much more historical than the semi-historical gospels.
I also remember that during the debate he actively refused to take a position on the Synoptic Problem (two-source, Farrer-Goulder, etc.). Once one accepts that most of Matthew, Luke, and possibly John is just a direct offshoot of Mark rather than independent witnesses, the gospels lose a ton of their multiple attestation authority.
I never worked as an apologist, but I taught things about Christianity that I firmly believed in the past and now no longer believe. And I imagine that many professional apologists believe what they proclaim. However, when I questioned some proponents of intelligent design (ID) about the details of their views, I cringed when I heard the reply that people want these views defended instead of trying to tackle the challenges from their opponents. I no longer have access to that correspondence from 2 or so decades ago, so I will refrain from any direct quotes.
I’m curious to know your opinion as to why Luke, like Matthew, revised Mark to prohibit the taking of a staff? Do scholars who believe Luke knew Matthew use this as an argument?
Yes, it’s one of the “minor agreements,” places where Matthew and Luke agree against Mark in a small variant (in this case with a huge difference in meaning! “Minor” just means “not lengthy”)
I’ve debated with apologists (of diverse religions) for years. For a long time I was flummoxed by their unwillingness to ever admit their respective party line had even the smallest error. I assumed evidence to the contrary would be compelling, but it meant nothing to them.
What I ultimately concluded is that believing apologists all subscribe to a “mystical imperative.” That is, the bedrock of their position that the Bible (or whatever holy book or person) is ultimately correct is based on their pre-rational assumption that there’s a supreme mystical truth that lies behind everything. Having once been a strong believer, I understand that mystical point of view. It explains everything and is impervious to mountains of contradictory evidence.
As a fellow “former one-of-them” I recall instances when I defended the indefensible, and even constructed delightful reconciliations of irreconcilable passages. I wasn’t being dishonest, or so I wanted deeply to believe. My goal was always honorable: attract new believers. I was troubled by my own words at times, but “God knows my heart,” so no harm, no foul. At least that’s how I justified the muddled reality of biblical contradictions that were integrally woven into my belief system.
So, are xian apologists lying, willfully? Yes. And no. Yes, because they are aware of the inconsistencies and impossiblilites. No, because they really, really WANT what they say to be true…so they start by believing it, sorta, themselves. That’s my 4.5 cents worth…darned inflation
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Mike Licona’s view on this Mark/Matthew discrepancy is a great example of this observation: when evidence contradicts belief, some people tend to reject evidence rather than change their sense of who they are.
As we used to say, “If what I believe is contrary to the facts, so much the worse for the facts!”
Dear Bart, I think the best version of this is: “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up”. This post on the psychology and motivation of apologists and the stream of comments and replies is fascinating and gets to the heart of your whole project.
They are not arguing what they believe, but arguing their “faith”. These apologist defending the inerrancy of the bible all hold to the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”. A doctrine that establishes the bible as a deity in itself equal in authority to God, Son and Holy Spirit. A “fourth” addition to the godhead so to speak. So to them to remove the inerrancy from the bible, then removes it’s authority. To them it would be equal to denying Jesus is the Son of God. For them to “change their mind” of their view of the bible, is equivitable to them changing from Christianity to Islam. Of course they incur doubts about the inerrancy of the bible thus why they seek out such mostly implausible reasons in explaning away such obvious errancy. They are always looking to argue their implausable defenses in order to try to overcome their own actual belief.
So of course they know they are lying (based on their belief), but do so based on their “misplaced” faith.
Bart, would you say that Steph Curry is now definitely a top 10 player in history?
I think it’s CRAZY hard, and probably actually crazy, to try to come up with a top ten list when the styles and levels of play are so different over the decades. But if I decided to be crazy, yes, I’d put him in my top 10. But don’t ask me who the other 9 are. And if you give me 15 obvious choices I’d probably say all 15 are top 10…. Of course, not many of them went to Davidson, so that’s remarkable too….
TBH, I don’t think the video clarifies anything that we don’t already know.
This was a couple of responses I put up there:
‘Bart is doing history as he frequently states, and you are doing theology. History has nothing to say on the truth of the bibles teachings.
The problem you guys face when going on about how it is the gist that matters, is that this gist is still a summary of what is supposed to have actually happened.
In other words, when the detail starts to fall apart, so does the gist.’
and . . .
[second follows]
[from previous]
‘The gospels authors are at liberty to write whatever they like in order to convey the message they think is important to highlight. That the part the Christians can’t seem to grasp. The problem then that historian face when confronted with this, is attempting to discern what probably happened in the past i.e. in this example, we have 3 possibilities:
1. Jesus said take a staff.
2. Jesus said don’t take a staff.
3. Jesus never mentioned as staff at all, or
4. The event never happened.
You are concluding that the gist of the story is true, but what does that mean from a historical POV? Well, the message can be clear whether the event happened or not i.e. if the story was made up by Mark or someone else.
In other words, gists being true have nothing to do with history being accurate.’
Would this be a fair summary of your position?
ARe you asking my position? My position is that the event never happened. But whether it did or not, Matthew and Luke both contradict Mark on whether Jesus said to take a staff or not.disabledupes{eae02dd6be108c070180b3d06a28d0bb}disabledupes
“Christianity is all about believing what others have said. It has always been that way and always will be.”
Agree and it isn’t limited to Christianity. Its all religions and belief systems. So choose one or choose none and live your life as best you can because it goes quickly and let the chips fall where they may.
They do not believe that they can be wrong; so, if the discussion goes badly for them, they change the subject or change any rule of logic necessary. They will lie flat out, because they do it for God and the end justifies the means. Your example is egregious, though. A head thumper. I think Mike was being polite in partially conceding to you.
I think they are willing to lie and be deceptive to convert people to the beliefs they genuinely hold, just not through evidence but vibes. In my personal experience conservative Christians are the most lying people of all. Generally when challenged they become more lying and more insulting.
Bart, Licona has responded to this post in a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspyJaXH5nc
OK, very interesting! I’ve written Mike to see if it’s OK for me to post it on the blog and to hear other people’s reactions. Thanks.
So he’s saying Mark is a girl and Matthew is a guy?
Apparently so. Metaphorically. Because girls are more detailed.
This whole guy/girl thing is a pretty lousy argument – it almost sounds like a dog whistle to a patriarchal fan base / constituency. “Those girls, always fussing about trivia – good thing the men are here to save the day and rescue God’s true message.”
And Bart, you need to stop being so pedantic lol.
TBH, I don’t really say anything more than we already know except to highlight the problem with attempting to do history and theology simultaneously.
Here are a couple of comments I wrote on his channel . . .
‘Bart is doing history as he frequently states, and you are doing theology. History has nothing to say on the truth of the bibles teachings.
The problem you guys face when going on about how it is the gist that matters, is that this gist is still a summary of what is supposed to have actually happened.
In other words, when the detail starts to fall apart, so does the gist.’
and . . .
‘Modern history considers many facets of the past, including theology, social history, philosophy and more, but all within the context of what can we say about what probably happened at that time.
So you are correct, historians have long recognised that ancient writings, just like most writings back then, including the gospels, were done with a purpose, and may contain many different literary devices and techniques to fulfil their aim. As an aside, that’s why I think the most accurate label for the gospels is theology and not history or biography even though they contain elements of both of those. They are primarily concerned with providing a message, exactly as we see with this example, and the fact they are contradictory is of no relevance or importance to theology.’
[rest of second to follow]
[rest of second]
‘In terms of reliability, you are equivocating. As I said earlier, Ehrman is a historian and, as such, has no method by which a theological truth can be confirmed or denied. What he has no problem recognising however, is that the gospels contain theology. What Licona has to do as an apologist, is to attempt to straddle both of these positions. In doing so, his theology can remain intact however, he will run into difficulties when he tries to reconcile it using historical methods and techniques.
So when Ehrman proposes that some recorded event cannot be reliable, he is doing good history, and he is not being incorrect. He is simply not addressing questions relating to the reliability of the message, because he cannot do that within a historical context. In sort, the answer to the question, can the text be said to be theologically reliable, is that, from a historical perspective, we don’t know and can never know.
In other words, history cannot support theological lessons.’
Are these a fair summary of your thoughts?
A lot of it is. I do though spend a lot of time dealig with the reliability of the message — if by that you mean getting the gist of what an ancient person actually said. When it comes to staff vs. no staff we’re not talking about any deep message, of coruse. Though I’m surprised that Mike doesn’t have a deeper exegetical explanation of it — i.e. an explanation of why not having a staff makes good sense in matthew’s context since it changes the message. To me it’s pretty weak to say “it’s simpler.” I don’t see what’a praticularly simpler about it. What it does is show that an apostle has to be *totally* reliant on God. Don’t even take a staff! (God is your staff) I’m completley fine with that being what Matthew does. I’m not fine with saying that if he precisely negates Mark’s words that he does not contradict him, since, in fact, that is what a contradiction *is* (contra – diction).
disabledupes{81334947d73f066c95b938c6169de0f1}disabledupes
If you have very strong beliefs and a lot is at stake, you will do whatever it takes to prove you are right. This is very true of cult members.
Your post got me thinking of the saying attributed to Voltaire:
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
It’s evident that Christian apologists fervently “believe in” their denials regarding demonstrated contradictions.
It’s the sincerity of that belief that makes them dangerous.
Fantastic quotation. And history bears it out. Thanks. (It is, appropriately, from Voltaire’s work on “miracles”)
I am also reminded of a passage by Richard Dawkins from his book ‘A devil’s chaplain: selected writings.’
“It is as though the faithful gain prestige through managing to believe even more ridiculous things than their rivals succeeded in believing. Are these people testing – exercising – their believing muscles, training themselves to believe impossible things so that they can take in their stride the merely improbable things they are ordinarily called upon to believe?”
The apologetics book “The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties” (Gleason Archer) summed up the approach I think many apologists take: “Be fully persuaded in your own mind that an adequate explanation exists, even though you have not yet found it…The Bible is either the inerrant Word of God or else it is an imperfect record of fallible men….” (P. 15). So the Bible is inerrant, but the apologetics just needs to be adequate to give the faithful peace of mind. The book is full of rationalizations and assertions that wouldn’t pass the laugh test with a secular audience. He addressed the “staff” discrepancy on page 326 — as an earlier commenter found, it centered on the subtle distinction between the Greek words for “take” and “acquire.” I think all the Bible difficulties out there that deal with translations raise a whole new problem for apologists — what sense did it make for God to confuse the world’s languages in Genesis 11, if he wanted his eventual written Word understood later on? Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, etc. — Bible scholars and theologians have been tormented for centuries by the headaches of language translation.
In my opinion… it depends.
I can understand Mikes point, even if I don’t agree. From the perspective of a believer, who is convinced the bible as a whole is divinely inspired, Matthew’s change to make a certain point, was a divinely inspired change, to exactly make this very point.
So it might not be historically correct, but inerrant for delivering the message the spirit wanted to be spreaded – therefore inerrant from the intention.
Well… a bit of a stretch, but more convincing than the argument about which greek wording had been used.
Nevertheless, these seem to be honest people, who really believe what they say.
On the other hand, Christianity in the west and especially in the US has become some kind of galvanizing core for right-wingers, who use Christianity as some code for a certain cultural code. In this debates, it isn’t about the truth, it’s about to further a political ideology, not a primarily religious one.
These people, in my opinion, aren’t believers, but political activists (and their group is enormous, maybe as large as the believer camp).
I think, they would lie, steal and kill to win. I doubt, they believe what they say – in a religious sense.
Oh boy, as someone who lives in Alabama, I agree completely with your point that sectarian conservative Christianity is often used as a unifying force for fringe right-wingers. I have witnessed that firsthand time and time again here.
For those interested, Mike Licona has published a response video at his YouTube and Apologetics315 channels: https://apologetics315.com/videos/mike-licona/?wchannelid=jknnu1pbg1&wmediaid=1pedmmzbco
I take Licona’s point that the presumed gist of the story – that God will provide – is the same in all 3 versions of the story. I would also agree that the detail of the staff seems pretty insignificant. I think he misses Ehrman’s point, though, which is literal inerrancy (there are no errors of any kind) of the Bible is not defensible in view of this minor and other major discrepancies.
This is not a case of Matthew and Luke telling the “man’s” version by leaving out a detail that Mark’s “woman’s” version wants to include. The “man’s” version would have omitted the staff detail entirely. This is complete change of detail, Matthew and Luke changed the detail from a staff is ok to a staff is not ok. Why they did it is 1) unknowable, and 2) irrelevant. The fact is they changed it.
If Licona is ok with the proposition that the Bible as we now have it is not inerrant in every single detail but accurately conveys the gist of the story, that’s fine and honest, in my humble opinion.
My impression (or reaction) is that there are a great many Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (E/Fs) who are not in good faith searching for the truth. They are looking for ways to defend what they already believe. They are dogmatic. They’ve already made up their minds what is true. And they base it all one very old book-out of the billions that ever been printed-that contains many obvious flaws and immoralities. I’ve read many skeptics who talk about how frustrating it is to discuss or debate religion with E/Fs. Essentially there is nothing you can say that could make them change their minds.
Then couple that approach with the content of their beliefs. Essentially they’re saying that the rest of us are terribly evil and condemned to everlasting torture. That’s incredibly aggressive and prejudiced and self-righteous. No wonder many fear what they might do to the rest of us if given the chance.
All of us probably have some of that dogmatism about our most important beliefs. But many of us are willing to challenge those beliefs and learn new things. We’re able to be humble.
This discussion hits me right in the gut. I´m still a member of my Church even though I really don´t believe any more. I´m very aware that when I was a believer it was because I chose to believe. I wanted to because there was a need for belief in my life. I conveniently ignored allot of valid arguments.
Now I have more understanding and knowledge and I choose not to believe. For a long time I flip/flopped between belief and disbelief even over the course of one day.
Was I at any point dishonest? Honestly, I don´t think so. Maybe I´m super neurotic or gullible or just plain stupid but it seems to me that our opinions and beliefs change but while we believe something we honestly believe it.
If we are talking educated apologists, and I think we are, in my opinion they are either (1) being dishonest (could be many reasons for that – it’s their livelihood, to stay in the good graces of their particular community or group, to keep peace in their family, etc.) and/or (2) can’t internally tolerate the stress of having to deal with being “wrong” in their probably long held beliefs or don’t think their flock or members of their particular religion could internally tolerate it either. I’d personally rather know the truth if the truth can be determined. After all, the truth is supposed to set us free.
So, Mike Licona posted a video response to this post. He asked for what people think in the comments and I’ll repeat what I said there: his explanation seems more like obfuscating that adding nuance. In his video he goes on at least about how his view is very nuanced and that Bart’s answer was to simplistic and that you have to be very nuanced about these things. I just think that’s a load of crap. How these guys can sleep at night is beyond me. I’m convinced they all have a mental illness and have sold their souls to the literal devil. We should be trying, as scholars, as readers, as communicators, to build bridges. Mike could have found a way to present his nuance to that passage in a way that gave a tiny bit of ground to Ehrman and others. Instead, he is saying in the trough of Bible worshippers out of… what? Fear? Pride? Insecurity? Loyalty? All the above? I don’t know and it’s disgusting. Really shows his true colors for what they are. He’s not in it for truth – he’s in it for the herd.
About the staff thing. As a non-believer, and having watched Licona’s response video on YouTube, my sympathies are with Licona on this one. The author of Mark is telling a story to convey a message. To the extent that the story had any historical basis at all, the details would already have been lost in the mist of time. They’re not important to the story. The message of the story is that the disciples don’t need to take things with them on a mission because God will look after them. One can easily imagine the authors of Matthew and Luke reflecting on this story and thinking it would work better, or be more consistent, if they took out the staff too. So that’s how they worked it. But the message is the same.
Yes, I agree with that. What I disagree with is the idea that there is not a literal contradiction and that the accounts are both literally “inerrant.” Why make that claim?
Fascinating Bart; and most illuminating.
The debate itself is here (this particular exchange is right at the end)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt0BLHMZ9JQ
Not surprisingly (as you would not have been able to check), your account above differs in many – probably most – details from that in the video.
– You recall the moderator pointing to a contradiction between Mark and Matthew, in the video the contradiction is between Mark and Luke.
– You recall Craig offering a harmonised interpretation; in the video he agrees with Mike.
– You recalled the moderator following up to all panellists with the question; “was Matthew’s account inerrant”. In the video it is you that ask the question specifically of Mike; and you ask whether Matthew and Luke were “reliable”. No one in this section of the debate raises the issue of whether either account was “inerrant” let alone whether they were “literally inerrant”.
So
– were there two debates?
– is your remembered account false?
– is your remembered account reliable?
– is your remembered account inerrant?
I would assess the answers as “definitely not”; “no”; “yes”; and “probably; it depends “. And I think Mike’s video supports a similar view.
But what would be your assessment?
Apologies for taking two bites at the cherry.
“probably; it depends”
Re-reading what I said, I realise the phrase above would benefit from expansion.
Moreover, it struck me that there were three further questions, that need addressing, which I had not posed:
– is the video false?
– is the video reliable?
– is the video inerrant?
I would assess the answers as “no”; “generally yes”; and “probably not “.
Mike, in his video, repeats verbatim the account in your posting above. And aside from correcting a misrepresentation of Craig’s views, he appears to endorse this as presenting (in his terms) the *’gist’ of the point at issue*, truthfully and reliably. So, your version has multiple attestation from the memory of two key participants.
Whereas reviewing the debate video, this exchange is presented as an “and finally” point; which not uncommonly is taken to imply “not to be taken seriously”.
The moderator had, earlier, posed the specific question of the “doctrine of inerrancy”. So, where in the video, this is explicitly a discussion on “reliability”, both you and Mike remember it as about “inerrancy”. If so, your memories may be ‘gist-inerrant’, where the video is not.
The video is true, reliable, and inerrant. I wish we had one of those for the life of Jesus….
“The video is true, reliable, and inerrant. I wish we had one of those for the life of Jesus….”
Now there is an interesting assertion Bart; certainly the video is “true” (it isn’t a fake); but is it both “reliable” and “inerrant”. Can any such isolated observation be both reliable and inerrant?
In my day job I teach how to analyse datasets so extract reliable understandings from real-world observations. And in that context, I always advise that analytical outputs that present no understanding of their degrees of “error” – that lack error-bars or confidence intervals – cannot, and should not be relied on. And certainly no respectable academic journal would accept outputs for publication on the basis that the underlying observations were “without error”.
Maybe better to treat “inerrant” as a category defined through reciprocal discourse? The chairperson asks at the outset of the meeting whether the minutes of the previous meeting are accepted as a “true and accurate” record of what was decided. If all agree they are, then indeed those minutes become “inerrant”; even were a video to emerge contradicting them, it is the video that would be in error, not the minutes.
Video’s don’t lie. It is a faithful representation of what happened, as recorded. What would be the error? Unless someone doctored it. I don’t think that happened. I’m not saying the content it contains is inerrant. I’m saying that it inerrantly relates the contents.
You are right Bart, that every video is a representation; but no representation can ever be value-free; and as such, videos certainly can and do lie – both in what they include, and what they choose to omit.
Producing any video necessarily requires selection and simplification of the material to be represented. Moreover it requires the adoption of a ‘standpoint’ both physically and ideologically. This is not ‘doctoring’, since it cannot be avoided, nevertheless a ‘faithful’ video should acknowledge its standpoints and the principles adopted for its selections.
For example; in this video all the persons pictured full-face were male, middle-class, middle-aged, white, intellectuals. A range of opinions were offered in these persons, but only within an extremely narrow cultural niche, clearly comfortable in one another’s company. That arose from the choice to film only the discussion panel; the video producer silently going along with the skewed panel selection without critiquing how grossly skewed it was. Which was an error.
An alternative video producer might have recorded the same panel discussions; but rather selected for full-face filming the responses of audience members who were educationally, socially, ethnically, age and gender diverse.
Interesting. Thanks. Yup, I was doing it from memory. As you know, I think memory/oral tradition is highly problematic. See what I mean? 🙂
Luke: interesting. Of course it’s the same text/problem (intriguing “minor agreement”);
Craig: even more interesting — esp. since Mike didn’t remember either apparently. (He didn’t correct me there, I don’t think, did he, in his video response? Neither, I think, has Kurt. Go figure) But really? I thought Craig had a way of explaining it away, not voicing Mike’s view.
Inerrant: Ah, now I’m remembering that he didn’t ask *that* but asked whether there was a contradiction. I haven’t rewatched it. But in my mind now: Kurt asks if it’s a contradiction, Mike says no, then I ask how the text can be inerrant if it reports the opposite of what Jesus actually said.
Most important: I hope you’re not around when St. Peter reviews my life at the Pearly Gates.
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” But in my mind now: Kurt asks if it’s a contradiction, Mike says no, then I ask how the text can be inerrant if it reports the opposite of what Jesus actually said.”
I am sure you inerrantly report there what you remember; and Mike’s memory of the exchange does seem to be consistent (or anyway not contradictory).
But absolutely nothing of that is recorded in the video; neither from Kurt nor you. Maybe something *was* said that the microphone missed (I am not a lip-reader), but I don’t think so. In the video Kurt asks whether the disciples did, or did not, take a staff. You respond to Mike’s explanation with the question whether Matthew and Luke’s changed account was “reliable”. Neither “contradiction” nor “inerrant” is recorded.
To put words in your mouth; you might say that your question was either about “reliability”, or about “inerrancy”. A contradiction; if one report is correct, the other must be false.
To put words in Mike’s mouth; your question may have used the term “reliable”; but he understood that, and replied to it, as though saying “inerrant”. No contradiction; both “reliable” and “inerrant” are differently correct.
The best way of thinking of these gentlemen is as throwbacks to a time before The Enlightenment. In modern terms, their explanations defy reason and the facts, and hence are intellectually dishonest.
I suspect that within the apologist camp, the level of the individual’s sophistication regarding scripture is significant.
For those with a relatively unexamined faith, the Bible is inerrant because those in authority have said it is. When challenged, they are simply flummoxed.
For the more sophisticated, they adopt some sort of strategy that works with the base belief of inerrancy. For example, they feel free to merge the various accounts of Jesus’ birth story into one. They say that each author only included the parts that they thought important.
Even more sophisticated is the apologist who insists on inerrancy but both recognizes different types of biblical texts and says that it matters – that inerrancy is different depending. For the gospels they might say that they are inerrant when it comes to the theological teachings of Jesus, but the historical details, like when Jesus traveled here or there or the order of the accounts don’t matter. For the Psalms they might say they’re just poetry or song and not directive theologically and so they can’t have errors at all.
Apologetics means never having to say you’re sorry.
For affirmation, refutation, or debate, this delicious encapsulation deserves an entry in every commonplace book. I came across it in the comments at https://www.jesusandmo.net/comic/sorry dated 10/25/2007.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Call a spade a spade.
I watched Mike’s reply, and even though he lost me once he got into his questionable guy/girl theory about storytelling, before that I could see where he was coming from, but I still think he misses the point. Whether the disciples were or were not taking a staff is indeed trivial, but the salient point is what it represents, and what it points to. Both instructions (take / don’t take a staff) cannot be correct, but Mike assures that it does not affect the gist of the story, which is indeed true – but the issue is not whether the gist of the story is affected, the issue is whether the Gospels are true and accurate descriptions of the words and actions of Jesus and his early followers.
At least that’s my take.
I had a similar experience discussing the contradictions between what Paul tells us in Galatians 1 and what the author of Acts tells us in chapter 9 concerning the various discrepancies following Paul’s experiences with what he believed was the risen Christ.
My interlocutor actually suggested that the account in Acts was simply picking up at the point where Paul returned from Arabia to Damascus. Or their other suggestion was that the author of Acts could have been taking up the story from after Paul had been in Syria and Cilicia for a period of time.
That the texts has nothing in them to suggest either scenario did not appear to bother them in the slightest. 🙂
I think people generally begin with the desire for a certain belief and then they select their frame of reference and worldview to fit that belief. That if there’s any way to massage the facts to support their belief, they will do so.
Thus, I don’t think that they are being dishonest. I think they genuinely believe that any inconsistency is irrelevant to their belief.
I think people generally begin with the desire for a certain belief and then they select their frame of reference and worldview to fit that belief. That if there’s any way to massage the facts to support their belief, they will do so.
Thus, I don’t think that they are being dishonest. I think they genuinely believe that any inconsistency is irrelevant to their belief.
At some level I think apologetics involves some cognitive dissonance. You have to know that there are things you’re saying that don’t seem to work together. But I also suspect there are as many ways of dealing with this as there are apologists. As an example: in 1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul says in the memorable language of the KJV, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face.” I imagine that for many apologists these issues are ones that they feel should not be stumbling blocks, because in their minds, when they see face to face, it will all be explained to them. Until then – they make guesses and rationales at best.
My short answer; some are, some aren’t, and it’s very hard to tell the difference. Probably, the ones who write books, or make money off it, are more likely to be lying, and others believe them, as “experts”.
I know we don’t want political diatribe here, but if you believe JFK is alive, you will do everything you can to support your view. This appears to be a human condition. What I’m curious about, and wonder how we together can help this human condition, what can we do to help each other and these conservative christians, like I used to be, realize what they are doing. You could talk for days, and show all kinds of evidence, that Matthew and Mark contradict, but it seems that the mind can’t be changed once it’s made up.
It’s very rare. Mine was, but maybe I’m just weird.
Then again, the larger argument really isn’t over details like directives about a staff. It’s about whether the Bible is a reliable testament of God’s doings in this world, or just a book written by credulous ancient people who were taken in by stories of events that never happened. The apologists are well aware that any admission that the Bible is wrong is an admission that the entire text can’t be trusted, and therefore Christianity is a hoax. Right or wrong, that’s the light in which they see confrontations with atheist scholars.
This is / has been an excellent question to ask, and it reflexes back onto each one of us re global issues of integrity, honesty & consistency (in thought, word & deed). Unless one can find explicit past counter-examples where a person has outright denied their current position & so is/was lying then it’s a tough call to look into anyone’s heart & claim or prove their dishonesty.
Prof Ehrman – I have mentioned this before that my concern in your debates is that no public attention is ever given to the personal interest your (conserv. evang. / fundamentalist) opponents have in their position. It’s worth stating to an audience that your opponent would likely be out of a job / career if they did not take their position whereas you, on the other hand, have true independence. As long as you apply the rigours of scholarly enquiry, research & argument then you are free to hold any position you want or even to change it – & you have in the past, as freely admitted!
Who was it that said “Follow the money!”?
Further to previous, we all know that in public life, parliaments / congresses, civil administration etc it is a hanging offence not to declare a relevant personal / conflict of interest (or perception thereof) when exerting any influence. Given that these topics engaged with by Prof Ehrman all too often are linked to existential issues & sensitive matters of personal identity (by the audience) I think this level of personal scrutiny of the debaters is entirely warranted.
A believer is not usually going to state the real reasons for their faith in a debate. In a debate, a believer will feel compelled to play according to the norms and rules of debates. They will explain their faith in terms that they think a non-believer might consider to be valid.
In reality, they know that their religious beliefs are giving them actual benefits: psychological help, social acceptance, feelings of hope and security, a system of ethics and morality, answers to questions that would bother them if they had no answers, and so on. Those are the real reasons for their faith.
When explaining their faith to a non-believer, they do their best to use the tools of logic and reason, because the rules of the game, as it were, require them to do so. They do the best they can within the constraints of those rules. But the rules don’t allow them to state the real reasons for their beliefs.
In a sense, that could be considered dishonest. But I wouldn’t call it dishonesty. They are merely engaging in the confirmation bias that nearly everybody engages in to some degree, without really recognizing it.
Yes. I’ve known personally two famous Christian apologists/writers, when I played music for their services in college. Privately they would admit that their own conversion stories – their testimonies – were emotional experiences dealing with anxiety and guilt and a sense of relief at submitting to Christianity. The analytical thought (or the veneer of it) was secondary. Behind closed doors they also judged others who didn’t agree with them as being rebellious or just wanting sexual liberty.
I returned back to a faith in God through maturity and reason. It wasn’t an intense spiritual/emotional experience.
I think many of these apologists assume, first and foremost, that the Bible was divinely inspired when written. If there seems to be a contradiction, it isn’t *truly* wrong since God inspired them to write it that way. Once you start with that assumption, you could come up with countless reasons God would want the text to appear the way it does.
– God knows the true historical account, even if the Gospel writer doesn’t, and guides them to write accordingly
– God thinks different things should be emphasized in different accounts, for inspirational/spiritual reasons
– Different texts (even if they seem to contradict each other) can serve unique purposes to their audience, if the right person reads the right version of the text
I mean, if someone believes in Christianity, then it’s probably their baseline that the Gospels reflect something true. They want to believe this, and I think they really do; it’s that baseline assumption guiding all their apologetics. Anything can be rationalized after that. Equally true for the militant atheist who assumes magic isn’t real, and thus looks for any scientific rationalization they can muster.
My back aches and my neck hurts something fierce. I vote for Mark, no gold or anything heavy and I´m taking my darn staff. So Mark is inerrant and the other two gospel writers are idiots.
Sorry Bart… I have to call ‘dishonesty.’
Not because they want to be dishonest… or malicious… but I believe that they have to convince themselves that they are being honest. They have a lot at stake if they admit even the slightest inconsistency.
If not, why are they also skirting the larger inconsistencies found within scripture… that you have even brought up within debate. How many times have you stated out loud… on stage… ‘I’ll wait for an answer,’ or… ‘’maybe you will address my question this time.’
It is a shame that our apologists have to become politicians while on stage, in front of the crowd. Taking one stance in public and another privately.
How many Honest politicians are there again?
Mainly the losers….
Would these inerrancy people say “I am 100% convinced my answer is correct”?
Or would they say something like, “that is my best understanding to the question”?
I think the second answer would imply that they are just standing on their inerrancy belief and only want to cast dispersions on the thought that it absolutely is a contradiction. So they are still ok.
Could I go so far as to say that anyone giving the first answer would be a good example of person stuck in dogma or perhaps someone who doesn’t understand what the word speculation means? They are after all guessing at what was in the head of the writer.
It probably depends on which ones you’re talking to.
When I was a fundamentalist, there was a message in our Pentecostal group that was passed around on cassette (ha!) called The Nail. And its message was that we are all like nails hanging on the wall (of a tool shed? garage? it was a long time ago…). And on the nail hang important things. If the nail falls out of the wall, the important things drop. Metaphor: if we lose our faith, the people around us will lose their faith, too. If we fall, they fall. Looking back, I can see it was a guilt-saturated message, but I wonder if some apologists/pastors/ministers, know the things they are saying don’t make sense, but they feel responsible for the faith of their hearers, so they keep trying to fit the square pegs into the round holes. If this is the case, then I think some sincerely believe they need to espouse and defend these views in public for the benefit of the faithful, even if they might be wrestling out these issues on their own in private. I would imagine an apologist would need a very trusted friend to admit that s/he doesn’t believe what s/he’s been defending anymore.
When listening to apologists on YouTube and other video sources, they seem convinced, but are making an argument. An argument that needs the bible to be inerrant. I do not trust they are being sincere, since they are clearly avoiding the obvious.
When speaking with an apologist, I find they are wholly convinced they are correct and not making things up to fit. I suspect it’s not black and white, but some shade of grey.
Excellent blog post and great comments
It appears that while Matthew used the story from Mark he penned different words and phrasing for example, αἴρωσιν/κτήσησθε (for take), which some suggest means to buy or acquire.
Also, Matthew seems to indicate they should take no sandals? They were to walk barefoot?
Any thoughts as to what Matthew is getting at with this phraseology?
Good point. I think that he is saying don’t *take* sandals (in addition to teh ones you’re wearing). But it is a bit odd!
Thanks, Bart.
As someone knowledgable about the Ancient Greek language being used here, and bearing in mind that he copied the story in the first place, any thoughts as to why he used a different word for ‘take’ in this pericope?
In other words, is there a difference in meaning when this word is used in Greek?
The word in Mark is “take up, lift, carry.” The only thing they are to take with them is a staff — nothing else but the clothes on their back. In Matthew the word is “procure, have for ourself.” They are to get/have nothing for the journey, not a a staff or anything else but the clothes on their back. The terms appear to be roughly synonymous in their contexts, with the only shift of nuance that I can see (possibly?) is that in Matthew he’s telling them not to get any supplies for the journey, not even a staff, and in Mark he’s saying not to take any supplies for the journey, except a staff.
I remember watching this debate and completely floored by Mike Licona‘s answers and definitions of “error” and “inerrancy”.
I personally believe Mike was being dishonest because he knows the truth but I think he has been so burned by evangelical institutions that he learned he must toe the line in order to stay in their good graces.