(13 votes, average: 4.77 out of 5)
Loading...Does the New Testament teach that a person can lose their salvation? It depends whom you ask. And possibly which New Testament books you read.
I have been discussing the letter to the Hebrews, and a couple of passages there are some of the key texts for discussing the issue. First, some background:
Since the 16th century, many protestants have believed that that once a person has become a committed follower of Jesus and is therefore bound for heaven it is literally impossible for her/him to lose their salvation. In modern lingo, this is often expressed by the phrase “once saved/always saved.” The idea stems from the teachings of John Calvin (1509-1564), who, among other things, believed that people were “predestined” for salvation by God. Being saved was not based on a person’s choice/decision. It was determined by God, from the beginning.
There was a clear logic to this view.
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So when Christians say, “You’re going to hell if you don’t accept Jesus,” I have to ask—is faith genuine when fear is the entry point? Isn’t that a coercive, even unhealthy way to approach divinity?
True spirituality doesn’t bully. It beckons. It calls you home, not threatens you with exile. And I am already home. I walk with the thunderer, the king of the old gods—not because it’s easy, but because it’s true for me.
And yes, I know that maybe Jesus said you get erased from history and memory.
Dear Dr. Ehrman,
I hope this message finds you well. I would like to inquire if you have had the opportunity to review the email I previously sent regarding this matter.
Paul and Peter: A Fractured Fellowship?
Paul and Peter—two of the most foundational voices in the early Church—only met three times, between roughly AD 36 and AD 52:
1. In Jerusalem after Paul’s conversion (Galatians 1:18–19)
2. At the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15; Galatians 2:1–10)
3. In Antioch, where Paul publicly rebukes Peter (Galatians 2:11–14):
“But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.”
What was Peter’s response? Scripture doesn’t say directly.
But years later, we find this in 2 Peter 3:15–16:
“Our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him… His letters contain some things that are hard to understand…”
It’s unclear if this was praise, diplomacy, or even subtle disagreement. But what we do know is that:
• Their last recorded interaction was a public confrontation
• This mention in 2 Peter is the last written connection between them in the Bible
Did they ever reconcile? Did they meet again? We’re left wondering.
I think the problem is that 2 Peter was not actually written by Peter.
True.
“Once saved, always saved” is probably one of the bases for people saying that Bart never truly was Christian in the first place.
I have this thing that I call “being in the Spirit of Christ”. It’s more than having a good day. Something else and more is happening. My problem is that it doesn’t happen nearly enough.
It’s like all the words, and rules, and guidelines that are part of Christianity aren’t words, and rules, and guidelines anymore. They are an integral part of who I am, and something else is happening. Something spiritual and uplifting. I feel balanced and in harmony, and like I have more insight or something. All the wrong things of this world aren’t even a consideration. They don’t even cross my mind. It is more than I can put into words, at least for right now.
I keep thinking that if this keeps happening, even if it doesn’t happen enough, then maybe I’m “in”.
I don’t think we can call the shots on this for anyone else. Can we call it for ourselves?
Paul says even he can lose his salvation. Paul also says Don’t ask who will go up and who will go down, but know that the word of God is in your mind and on your lips.
It’s only a shot that God and Christ can call?
Grays and Reptilians are not part of the Galactic Federation.
Many Grays lost their soul matrix due to excessive genetic engineering.
The Reptilians operate from a service-to-self ethos.
The Galactic Federation does not resonate with these characteristics.
Your post from the day before dealt with Jesus existing in space, not on earth. The existence of Grays and Reptilians opens the possibility of a cosmic savior who helps beings not lose their souls, but Jesus has not effected successful soul salvation for the Reptilians.
CIA MK ULTRA whisteleblower, James Martinez, says LSD victimization can cause Heaven with its mercy to heal soul trauma. A saved soul can be traumatized which answers yes, a soul can lose its salvation and health.
Martinez continues: interfacing the brain with computers and AI is transhumanism that makes one cybernetic. This is an end of the soul. One is no longer an organic, free-will human being. This is a way of losing ones soul despite early Christianity and the triumph of Christianity. Mark 8:36.
Martinez warns that cognitive liberty (autonomous soul liberty) can be lost by victimization.
On the earth-plane, the fracture of the soul may not be repairable.
Circumcision for medical health: Galatians 5:2-4 is erroneous.
Steve
Hello Dr.Bart Erhman
I have a question about the historicity of the tomb. If a lot of people protested and were willing to give their life for the following of the jewish law like with the Josephus example then i think Jesus would have given a decent burrial. What do you think?
Yes it is!!
These people were not crucified by the Romans. Big difference.
Interesting observations. IIRC, and reaching outside of canon, doesn’t the Shepherd of Hermas suggest that, after a certain amount of time has gone by, a convert who transgresses can lose salvation?
THe Shepherd says that a person gets one second chance, and only one. After that, it’s cookies.
I think that alongside Galatians 5, we also have Romans 6, where Paul addresses those who have been baptized into Christ’s death in order to walk in newness of life. He mentions that if they share in His resurrection, they need to obey righteousness, which leads to holiness, and ultimately results in eternal life. However, Paul also states that if they obey sin, the end result is death. I’ve always found Romans 6 a bit puzzling because it seems to suggest that obedience to righteousness guarantees eternal life. Yet, Paul also refers to eternal life as a gift from God. Perhaps Paul had a different understanding of “gift” than we do today. Anyway, that’s a bit off topic.
John Shelby Spong said that there is nothing a person can do that would make God not accept them or accept them back.
I heard and saw him state this in person, live from the podium at one of the talks he gave. This was when his book, ‘Here I Stand’, came out, and just before his book, ‘Sins of the Scriptures’ was released.
Maybe a person needs to do some kind of repenting or making amends or something, I think this stuff really helps. If nothing else, it sets a person up so that at least they know they aren’t going to mess up again. idk. But in the long run, I would really like to believe that we all can be received in Graceland.
If the words in Hebrews 6:4-8 and 10:26-31 are honestly taken at their literal meaning there is no way to make them compatible with the words on which the Reformed doctrine of the “perseverance of the saints” stand. Both cannot equally be the inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God. For after all, He is not the author of confusion.
I’m wondering what degree of “falling away,” “producing thorns and thistles,” “willfully persisting in sin” qualifies for losing one’s salvation. How much sin does it take to “spurn the Son of God” and “outrage the Spirit of grace”? Are there particular sins that do the trick, while other sins get a pass?
These questions must surely weigh heavily on the minds of thinking Christians who believe they can lose their salvation. Hell is serious business.
Romans 13:1-2 says “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
So while driving my car, if I don’t come to a complete stop at a stop sign, I’ve violated the law. I’ve resisted authority, and thus have resisted God. But doing it once isn’t “persisting in sin.” Okay, what if one day I don’t come to a complete stop at a stop sign, the next day I drive one mile per hour over the speed limit, and the day after that jaywalk?
“and no one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand” and similar statements could be saying that, as long as we remain believers, the forces/people ‘external’ to the saved/baptized person cannot force a separation from God’s salvation. But if we willingly give up our ‘internal’ faith, we will also give up our gift of salvation. Does that mean that if one is ‘forced’ by others to not be a Christian, they don’t lose their salvation? Islam has dealt with that issue also. So maybe one’s ‘intent’ is actually a key factor.
Hello Dr.Bart Erhman
Did Teachers in Jesus times often think “special thoughts” like becoming the future king in the kingdom of god like Jesus?
Sure. Just as today many politicians imagine becoming president.
Research into NDEs (Near-Death Experiences), clearly indicate that the souls/spirits of everyone goes to heaven and experiences a “comprehensive review of their life,” but then some are told they hadn’t completed dying — that their heart has resumed beating — and they must return to earth. There is no evidence what happens to those who do not experience a return.
Research, conducted at the UVA Medical school for ~65 years provides strong evidence that reincarnation is not a rare event. The research indicates — but definitely does not prove — that those who “die early” (i.e., before they have an opportunity to help a lot of other folks who need help — which Jesus repeatedly says is our assignment/obligation) are those who are reincarnated. This does not eliminate the possibility that everyone is reincarnated, possibly multiple times. Remember, there is no evidence that our souls/spirits have a continued existence in heaven — we — our souls/ spirts — may be placed in a condition of suspended animation until it is our time to have a new life with a new name in a new body produced by different parents, and a new life experience.
Bill Steigelmann
This is a hotly debated question! I was part of a fundamentalist church that believed fervently in “eternal security” or “once saved, always saved.” But they were not Calvinists and also believed that even someone who falls away is still saved. They use Lot in the OT as an example because he is described in the NT as “just (righteous) Lot,” despite his disastrous life. He was still justified (saved).
So what do you think of the following argument? The New Testament, especially John, teaches that the believer presently possesses eternal life. And because it is by nature eternal, doesn’t it make sense that it can’t be lost? Otherwise it’s not eternal. Also, it’s not a gift (Romans 6:23), because gifts don’t come with strings attached.
I no longer have a stake in this matter, but I’ve heard most all of the arguments and I find it interesting. I guess I should want eternal security to be true as I was taught it, because I’d be saved even though I’ve fallen away. But since I don’t believe hardly any of it, I now find it more a matter of curiosity. Thanks!
I’d say different parts of the New Testament present different views on the matter; it is not one view but several, as with most things.
New member here – I cannot figure out how to post new question – so here goes:
What is the oldest manuscript of Josephus’s antiquities? How can one know that details of his writings were not changed (ie similar to “Jesus before the Gospels” book)
Related – What is/are the sources for the the Josephus Vespasian story? Is Josephus the source? Any corroborating evidence?
Thanks – and feel free to instruct me on how to post questions.
The debate about whether someone can lose their salvation or wasn’t truly saved to begin with seems unnecessary. Ultimately, the outcome is the same: the person is not saved. What’s the practical difference between these two perspectives, and why does the distinction matter?
Personally, I’m open to the idea that the Bible affirms the real danger of apostasy. There are warnings in Scripture that seem too strong to be hypothetical, especially in books like Hebrews. That said, I also don’t believe someone loses their salvation just because they messed up or had a bad week. Apostasy isn’t stumbling—it’s turning away.
Interestingly, I’ve also heard (though I don’t personally subscribe to) a view from the “once saved, always saved” camp that suggests these warning passages aren’t just empty threats. Rather, they’re one of the very means God uses to keep His people from falling away. In that framework, the warnings in Hebrews and elsewhere don’t contradict eternal security, they uphold it. God ensures the perseverance of the saints in part through these sober warnings. Without them, some might drift. With them, the elect are kept alert and anchored.
When Jesus said that “no one will snatch them out of the Father’s hand,” I wonder if the early followers initially expected this meant they would be protected from persecution. But as the reality of suffering/martyrdom set in, perhaps they had to revisit/clarify what that promise meant.
Here are several other passages that seem to restate this idea in slightly different ways than John 10:29. Historically speaking, what do you think is going on here?
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: ‘I have not lost one of those you gave me. (John 18:9)
Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.’ Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. (John 21:22-23)
But not a hair of your head will perish. (Luke 21:18)
I am vision impaired so I read slower than most. Ironically this means that I catch what is actually written (warts and all) rather than skimming so fast that the gist is understood regardless of spelling. In several blog posts I have noticed repeated words and misspellings that spellcheck would not catch. For example, “live” when it should be,”life”, “an” that should be “and”, and, “that that.” These are very common errors in word processing in an age when secretaries are no longer used by writers. However, it means that each writer must be that much more diligent in their proofing and editing, especially such a prominent scholar.
I guess John 5:24 could be used to support the “once saved/always saved” concept:
“Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.”
“has,” “does not,” “has passed” could be interpreted as implying irreversibility.
On the other hand, Paul himself seems to take the opposite view in Romans 11:22 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-2:
“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
“Now I want you to understand, brothers and sisters, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain.”
“Onced saved, always saved” never made sense to me. If an alcoholic falls “off the wagon” he has to go back to rehab. If a sinner falls out of grace, he needs to be saved again. That’s the view I was raised with, so I may be prejudiced.
I remember years ago when I used to get into debates with the ‘once saved, always saved’ Christians. I had written out all the verses that ‘proved’ you could lose your salvation. Of course, they always had their scriptures ready in defense. I always felt good in my self-righteousness and that I knew better. But, after ‘backsliding’ a few times which so often happens with Christians, and being bummed out that I wasn’t ‘making the grade’, I read ‘Jesus, Interrupted’. That book truly saved me. Like they say, the truth will set you free. The truth that the bible is full of contradictions, errors and highly questionable sources. One person said that ‘biblical theology is all over the map’. That struck me because I realized it was true. Yet, I still believe in God, but that he is bigger than just Christianity. I’ve had too many ‘coincidences’ and answered prayers in my life to think otherwise. He is the one Consciousness, the great Spirit, the Source, the Universe, however you want to label him.
People have been told by religious leaders for thousands of years that scripture is holy and sometimes told it is infallible. There is good reason to believe that most — maybe 80% — of the things we read are sincere beliefs of the authors, but beliefs without any proof. (I don’t think Bart has stated this so bluntly, but I suspect he would agree.) This does not prevent me from believing there is not a unknowable supreme being that is guiding each of us, and from also believing that — per Process Theology — none of us follows through on more than a tiny fraction of God’s suggestions/requests. (I believe Bart has followed through on God’s suggestion that he become 1) an authority on NT scripture and related writings, and 2) an excellent writer and author.
God is still speaking to all of us! I believe God now wants us all to learn that reincarnation is happening on all continents. Read Dr. Jim Tucker’s book “Before, “which provides a descriptions of the 65 years of research conducted at the U of Virginia Medical School’s Division of Perceptual Studies (simply google: UVA DOPS).
Bill Steigelmann
Pardon this comment which is late to the game, but on this note, wasn’t there something in the Shepard of Hermas that suggested people could lose salvation at some unknown point if they sinned after baptism?
Seems to me I heard about that somewhere. Assuming it’s in there, I also wonder to what extent that might have diminished the book’s reputation.
Yes, the Shepherd maintains that there is one chance to return to the faith after falling away. But ONLY one chance. After that, it’s cookies.
Hi Dr. Ehrman,
What comes to mind on this discussion is the Olivet Discourse where Jesus says something to the effect of “whoever endures to the end, will be saved.” Based on this, I would err on the side that salvation can be lost.
As you mentioned though, Jesus says in John 10 that “No one will snatch them out of my hand” which seems to contradict this or muddy the waters at least. I’ve been learning more about John recently…could you explain the scholarly view of the historicity of John? I’ve been reading that John may be more of an insight into early church beliefs than actual historical accounts of Jesus. Also, if you could mention if this scholarly view has a consensus or if it’s divided, that would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Dear Dr Ehrman:
Thank you for bringing this subject up. the church I grew up in taught predestination, but looking back 40 years, who lives worthily?
For all those leadership or anyone that told me how to behave & they couldn’t.
I had a fairly decent Church friend [about my age]. His parents became elders in another location. CHURCH line does not permit homosexuality. Well their son, my friend came out.
So engrained in the church, I assume my aunt’s husband also became an elder in Anaheim [they are the worst]! Wives of elders hold & carry out the rod further of the leadership! [Scarlet letter]
My aunt felt sorry for my friend’s parents, but I thought or always thinking of WHAT about all those “sheep” that were obedient as that was what was forced upon them to belong.
I am obedient despite the falling apart of USA Christianity.
And then BABY dedication, I am faithful, but my parents aren’t. What is God to do.
If one doesn’t admit sin, nothing for us to forgive. We aren’t Jesus [divine] or St Stephen!
Unless one is obedient to the end!
What are we “saved” or “not saved” from? A hell that does not even exist? Or from the refining, purifying fire of God’s wrath against sin that will burn away all the impurity so we can be in God’s kingdom?
Just a dumb thought.
Can we even say in this life “I am saved” or “I am not saved”? Salvation by nature is future. How can you lose what you haven’t got yet?
Being raised Catholic, I never understood or had any sympathy for the doctrine of predestination; thank you for explaining its rationale. However it still makes no sense.
If that rationale is based on omniscience, then our salvation status is determined _outside_ of time, and can be based on our entire life from conception to death (or beyond?); saying that it was determined _before_ all time appears to be projecting our in-time experience (where we can plan to influence future events) onto a being with a fundamentally different nature. An omniscient being cannot discover the unfolding of history along with us, and this gives all kinds of philosophical conundrums (how could such a being freely interact with us?); however I don’t see how it implies that our salvation cannot depend on our decisions and actions.
And, from an omniscient perspective, what is the point of having a system of punishments and rewards at all? Those are mechanisms to try to influence the behavior of subjects, but pointless if that behavior is already determined. (Also an omnipotent being should not have any need for them.)
But no bible text actually has a timeless view of God, so what could they even say about the question?
Yup, insoluable questions….