Loading...The topic I’m dealing with on this destined-to-be-a-very-long thread seems to me to be particularly important. Most of my scholarship is of interest mainly to people concerned about the life and teachings of Jesus, the New Testament, the history of Christianity, and so on; but this is of interest to *all* of us. What happens when we die? Or more specifically, what happens to *me* when I die?
My current discussion of purgatory may be of little interest to people, until they think about it for a second. Do most people have to go through horrible suffering after death, even if they are not destined for the eternal flames of hell? I for one don’t look forward to getting a tooth ache or ending up in the hospital. What if there are years, decades, centuries of physical torment ahead for me? Shouldn’t I want to know about that and, well, make some preparations?
But it’s a topic most of us don’t think about. Those of us raised in a Protestant tradition simply don’t buy it (whether we’re Christian or not); many Catholics do buy it, but don’t devote a lot of thought to it. But either way, is it true?
I have no way of knowing of course, so I’m not going to give you an answer. But I do want to pursue the question of where the idea came from. Is it taught, for example, in the New Testament? Supporters of the doctrine claim that it is, deniers say it isn’t. What’s the evidence?
I’ll mention four passages that seem most relevant. Actually, the first I’ll mention …
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Off topic: there’s a nice review of ‘Triumph,’ by one of my favourite historians, Tom Holland, in this week’s Spectator (I think it might also appear in the US edition).
Thanks!
Do you think Matt. 5:21-22 came from the historical Jesus, or early Christian traditions?
It’s hard to say. The fact that the Aramaic term “RAKA” occurs in teh passage (= you fool) indicates that whoever came up with the saying, it wsa from Aramaic-speaking Palestine. So there’s a good chance, at least, that it goes back to Jesus.
Thank you for explaining the word used for hell by Jesus…Gehenna. I think it is a key to understanding what Jesus mean by Judgment and Purgatory.
Our heaven and hell is now…in how we live and in how we treat others. No one has ever been to heaven and returned, no one has ever seen God (1 John 4:31ff) so our duty is to live god’s kingdom now and to be the love and compassion that Jesus taught.
Just my opinion. All I know for sure is how much I don’t know and the afterlife will be whatever it will be. All or nothing. No one knows.
You have the start of a good book. Thanks for sharing.
Re: “No one knows.”
There are actually quite a good number of books written by non-physical beings from beyond the grave. The Christian teaching has — from the beginning and right up to this day — been that you should avoid such influence, for it is their turf, reading it is forbidden. but I didn’t heed the call and have learned things we are only supposed to be learning from the Church. So be it. It’s a discipline called new-age spiritualism and metaphysics, and can be found in any major bookstore.
Very OT: I just remembered that several months ago, I asked if you had an opinion about the newly opened Museum of the Bible in Washington. And you said you’d tell us what you thought about it after you’d seen it…which was going to be in *February*!
Of course, you still haven’t told us how you became convinced that “Cephas” and “Peter” are one and the same…
Yeah, a lot of things I’m behind on. ANd now I’ve started a thread on something completely different. Ai yai yai…. Funny how I once thought I’d run out of things to talk about on the blog after about 8 months….
Maybe eternity won’t be so boring after all?
Interesting. I was raised Catholic and below is a link to Catholic Answers that gives some scriptural justification for the doctrine of Purgatory.
Although I’m no longer a believer of any of this but in some ways the concept of purgatory makes sense. Protestant Christians believe that Jesus paid for your sins and by placing faith in Jesus your sins will be forgiven and you’ll go to heaven when you die. So that means any sin the believer commits will be forgive and there will be no punishment. I’ve always wondered where is the Justice in that? If a believer commits a grevious sin, adultery or even murder, but latter repents there will be no punishment? So a believer could literally get away with murder as long as they had faith….I’ll leave that one to the theologians.
My question. I guess Jesus did believe in an afterlife but I understand certain sects of Judaism did not believe in an afterlife? Was the concept of an afterlife a new concept within Judaism at the time of Jesus?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible
Jesus, like others in his day, believed that at the end of this age there would be resurrection of the dead, where the righteous would be brought into God’s eternal kingdom (here on earth). The wicked would perish.
When I was in RCIA, a priest who spoke to our class explained this issue. He posited that Hitler would most likely never leave Purgatory till he’d apologized to every single family adversely affected by World War II, including German families of soldiers who’d been killed fighting for him. In other words, Adolf would probably spend eternity in Purgatory. It wasn’t till later that I began to wonder how someone in Purgatory would apologize to living people.
If you think about it, if a human legal system had only two verdicts for all crimes – complete exoneration or the death penalty – we would think that a very unjust system. So I can understand why people look for some additional options, to make sense of a system that doesn’t seem to make sense. (Also glad to hear your comments about Mark 9:48, which alludes to Isaiah 66, since many Christians mistakenly use that passage to justify their idea of eternal torment.)
Since I don’t believe in an afterlife, that doesn’t cause me any fear.
I too believe Jesus was talking about this life. Forgiving others does make this life easier. It helps eliminate hostility.
I also believe the mistakes we make in this life can be taken as life’s lessons…if we listen to life.
Dr. Ehrman, you didn’t address the comments I made in the previous post concerning a Jewish purgatory, so I’m not sure if you think I’m on the right track or not. Having said that, what you have written in this post seems to confirm much of what I said.
Sorry — I must have missed your question!
Does the “weeping and gnashing of teeth” described in Matt 24:51 describe posthumous punishment? The author says the master will cut the slave into pieces, but also says they will be placed with the hypocrites. Are they dead or alive?
A similar kind of thing is going on in Matt 25:30, where there is weeping and gnashing, and the slave is thrown into “outer darkness.” Is this also punishment in the afterlife or in waking life?
PS: congrats on your new grandchild. I hope they’re doing well.
Yes, I think that all these images are metaphorical and can’t be pressed for a literal sense — otherwise they don’t make any sense at all!
Am I understanding correctly then that Jesus’ view was likely that the faithful could live forever in God’s coming kingdom, but the unrepentant died and burned away?
That’s my view.
That does make sense too from reading the Gospels. Jesus teaches about inheriting eternal life which implies not everyone will live for eternity and those that do not inherit eternal life will be annihilated, which I think is the metaphor Jesus describes when referencing Gehenna, Today’s Christian theology states all have eternal life but what is at stake is your eternal destination…eternal bliss in heaven or eternal punishment in hell.
My question is, did this now traditional Christian teaching originate with Paul or did it develop later?
Paul, interestingly enough, never talks about eternal punishment. So I think the idea arose later.
Is there actual evidence that Jesus was considered enough of a political threat that the Romans wouldn’t have allowed the Jews to bury him
It’s not that he was a threat. It’s just that they didn’t allow decent burials for crucified victims. That was part of the punishment.
So Professor, was the burning trash heap in the Valley of Gehinnom so well known it would be known in the Gallilee at that time? Or, is this evidence of story embellishment?
You know, I was wondering exactly the same thing (for the first time ever) when I was writing the post! I have to think about it a good deal and see if anyone has a plausible solution to the problem.
By Jesus’ time I’m sure Gehenna ceased to be just a direct reference to the valley of Gei Hinnom south of Jerusalem, and, instead, became a symbol or metaphor for the condemnation of the wicked. It’s possible, however, the physical place itself was seen as one of three things.
1) The place where the bodies of the slain wicked would be dumped after the great end times battle in the Qidron valley just to the east of Jerusalem, all of which would then be burned. Note that Jesus, along with other apocalypticists (4 Ezra, 2 Baruch) frequently talk about “worms” in the bodies of the dead, suggesting exposure to the open air, meaning the bodies are not given a decent burial in a tomb. The place those bodies would be exposed, presumably, is the literal valley of Gehenna/Gei Hinnom
2) A portal or gateway to a subterranean region (think Korah’s Rebellion) through which the bodies of the wicked are dropped into the so-called “lake of fire”.
3) The location where Satan’s army of demons and wicked humans take their last stand during the final battle and fall, either metaphorically or literally into the conflagration.
I’m sure apocalyptic Jews such as Jesus and his disciples would have understood Gehenna to mean one or all of those things.
Bart, I recently ran across an argument by Richard Carrier that the “render unto Caesar” episode is almost certainly not historically accurate, as denarii weren’t circulated in Judea until after 70, and therefore it’s unlikely that Jesus or anyone around him would have had a denarius on him for his famous saying. Carrier also claimed that Jews did not pay Roman taxes in coins until after the war, so the saying doesn’t make sense in a pre-70 environment. I was wondering if you’ve looked into it this at all and whether you buy the argument or not.
Thanks,
Interesting. I don’t know — I’d have to look into it. I wonder what evidence he cites.
When I was in Jerusalem last summer I think alked through Gehenna. It’s lovely now. I asked our guide if Jesus meant Hell or Gehenna, she said she didn’t know. I said I’m hedging my bets, so I hope he meant Gehenna! Why do you never say that child sacrifices were occurring to the good Molech? As is stated in Jer. 2: 23. — Also can I go to Jerusalem with you?!
Yes, the Molech traditions are important. Jerusalem: I’m leading a trip in October; not sure if it’s sold out yet or not. Check out the UNC General Alumni Association page.
Without having read the blog post. I’ll proffer the following, Dr. Ehrman.
There must be a space between death and the resurrection.
Luke 16 contains the parable of the wealthy man and Lazarus. Principally, Lazarus is dead and finds himself in “The Bosom of Abraham” or a gulf, space between. The rich man, on the other hand finds himself able to see Lazarus and “in torment”. Neither have receive the promised resurrection, for it has not yet occurred. If Jesus was “the resurrection” as indicated by John’s Gospel, he would not have declared a parable that taught the people a false ideal.
Additionally, while on the cross, Jesus is recorded as declaring to the penitent thief, “Today with me thou shalt be in the paradise.” If “paradise” was the traditional notion of Heaven two problems occur in other texts.
1. The Epistle of Peter is out of place when it refers to the Gospel being preached to “spirits” while in “prison”. This idea of an intermediary locale between death and final judgment, wherein those who do not “die in the Lord” are “preached” the Gospel (as we see with the parable in Luke 16) and the righteous are in the bosom of Abraham.
2. Also, this idea bears out when, again, Jesus’ informs Mary in the Garden, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father”. Where was Jesus if he went to “paradise” with the their but also to a locale with the dead, separated by a “gulf”?
If Jesus went to a separate place, not “heaven” these passages begin to hold meaning. We also see the idea of a God who has made allowances for those ignorant of the “Christian” message, not condemned in ignorance as Paul indicates in Romans 2, each of us Judged according to the “law written on our hearts”.
This would allow those who, for whatever reason, were preached a “Gospel in Prison” as indicated by 1 Peter 4:6. This might also allow for the possibility of repentance and release.
Thoughts?
My sense is that you should read something before commenting on it!!
I read the post after, carefully. It appears there is a teaching relevant to an intermediary place between death and the final abode of the believer, perhaps a period of temporary punishment from which a person may be released. These passages cited seem to support the idea, particularly from Peter and the authors of Luke and John that a temporary place, perhaps a “purgatory” was taught by Jesus. As you indicated, there “may: be a reference in the Matthew text, I feel the idea is sured up by the passages I referenced. Is that totally off base?
It’s an interesting phenomenon that Catholic interpreters have traditionally been convinced that the answer is yes, and Protestants that it’s no! I’m not a Christian, but my sense is that the idea of purgatory is a later development, after Jesus and Paul, and probably after the NT. But I’m open to thinking through the passages. I”ll be dealing with them anon.
I also am not Christian. I was just attempting to consider what evidence may exist in the text to support both the idea of a temporary intermediary between death and hell, one that is not as definitive as Evangelicals indicate or as vague as Catholicism seems to suggest. From the passages I referenced, do you think a valid argument exists to support the idea early Christians did not simply consign the dead to either “Heaven” or “Hell”? In the John text, the author has Jesus speaking of “many mansions” (John 14:2) and Paul, referring to himself, states “such an one being caught away unto the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). I know it is debated among scholars, whether the traditional “heaven/hell” is a later addition or is found in our earliest sources. Taking the Sadducees (who seemingly reject an afterlife) as well the more neutral ideal of “Sheol” being a more neutral abode of the dead. It is possible this concept would have carried into the first Christian thinkers, including Jesus, as seen in his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus,building on the traditional understanding and instructing that this “Sheol” is a middle ground, prior to the resurrection and identifying a division between “good” and “evil” or just and unjust. This concept was later changed to articulate the Heaven/Hell concept as “eternal” we see in Christianity today. I’m just ruminating, or making an attempt. Thanks.
No, I don’t think either John 14:2 or 2 Cor. 12:2 indicates that there was some kind of third place (I think that’s what you’re asking)
By the way, loved your new Book.
Hope you read it. 🙂
I did. I’ve read all your books a couple times.
Ah, *you’re* the one!
They really are very good. I also enjoy Dr. James D. Tabor’s writings about Paul.
Looking for scriptural evidence for purgatory reminds me of looking for Old Testament prophecies of the “Messiah,” in that you really, really have to want to see it to see it….
Again, another example of Christianity being based on believing what people said 2,000 years ago and they also said different things.
Right!
Love this series on purgatory. I think the later development of Christian doctrine is very fascinating and how it lead up to medieval Christianity. So many ideas that were not part of original Christianity were projected backwards in fascinating ways.
It’s good advice, but while most of us tend to over-indulge in anger (never more than when online, and there’s little adherent risk to expressing it), I do think it serves a purpose. There are times when it is justified, even necessary.
This all ties into Jesus’ idea that the Kingdom is coming soon. Why get angry? God and the Son of Man will settle all accounts for you. Just keep it cool, boy. Real cool. Perhaps the first-ever linking of this teaching of Jesus with the teachings of Steven Sondheim. Well, they’re both nice Jewish boys. 😉
Did other NT teachers teach a literal fiery hell? It seems like Revelation teaches this. If so, do you think John (of Revelation) misunderstood Jesus?
He doesn’t appear to be basing his views on the teachings of the historical Jesus (but on visions he had).
“Jesus is telling people how to live in this present life. He’s not at *all* talking about the afterlife.”
That is good description of his ministry. There dont seem a lot of passages where he makes clear his views on the afterlife.
Even the famous discussion regarding the 7 brothers in the afterlife with same wife wasn’t a topic he brought up himself, i.e it probably wasn’t part of his regular preaching; he only addressed it then because of a challenge. Prior to your blogging on this topic I would have said Jesus understood afterlife as the commonly conceived heaven and hell. but now, whether he believed in heaven/hell or shadowy sheol or some bodily resurrection iseems pretty speculative.
Even when I was a believer, and I was raised Catholic, I had a hard time accepting the idea of Purgatory. The lack of clear Biblical support was largely why. Now that I think about it though , I find my skepticism (and those of other believers) suprising for two reasons.
One, there are so many things not in the Bible that people accept. How the apostles died. Names of the three wise men. I realize those are relatively minor issues not accepted by everyone. But still, if one can accept other thing not in the Bible, why not Purgatory?
The other is that the idea is very appealing and seems to make more sense than just the notion of heaven and hell. Who deserves to be tormented forever for being a bit naughty or not believing the right thing? Save maybe a few of the most horrible people in history, how could a loving God do that to anyone? But the idea of a temporary punishment doesn’t seem like such an injustice. Why only to two extremes? My objection might be why the idea developed in the first place. But why is it so unappealing to so many?
I think the idea is “unappealing” to many Evangelicals because of various levels of fundamentalism. Ideas not “found” in the Biblical texts, which are not traced back to the Early Fathers, are discounted. Ironic, considering Sola Scriptura and the Triune, Ontological, nature of God are also absent.
Purgatory isn’t found, but an intermediate place of the dead is. Protestants claim Sola Scriptura, but they don’t even practice or believe what’s actually there in many cases.
Will you be addressing the story of Lazarus and the rich man in a later post in regards to the idea of purgatory? I think in regards to the Early Church that’s probably the most important one for it’s development. Also 1 Peter 3:15-19 touches on this idea of some kind of intermediate state. There is a very scholarly work by Bo Reicke which I have, entitled “The Disobedient Spirits and Christian Baptism: A Study of 1 Peter 3:19 and Its Context”. I found it hard going since it refers so much to the original langauges, which I can’t read. But I’m sure you would probably derive much from it.
Yup!
So Bart, the question I think everyone wants to ask is, if purgatory turns out to be real, how long do you think you’d have to stay there for? 😀
More seriously though, did any early Christians devise a list of sins and corresponding punishments? Was there a medieval menu of wickedness with the price you pay listed against each one?
I’m hoping for five seconds.
IN some apocalpyses certain sins are given specific punishments.
I think I would be cool if in your new book you could compile a list of sins and punishments or purgatorial layover durations (with sources cited of course). All these could be put in tables or an appendix.
DR Ehrman:
Your Comment:
_________________
I have no way of knowing of course, so I’m not going to give you an answer. But I do want to pursue the question of where the idea came from. Is it taught, for example, in the New Testament? Supporters of the doctrine claim that it is, deniers say it isn’t. What’s the evidence?
I’ll mention four passages that seem most relevant. Actually, the first I’ll mention seems the least relevant of the four, but it’s the one that appears to have been cited most frequently, from what I can tell, by later supporters of the reality of Purgatory. It comes from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (found in Matthew 5-7).
My Comment:
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DR Ehrman, as you have stated: You’re a scholar of the the “life and teachings of Jesus, the New Testament, and the history of Christianity.
I think, DR Ehrman, that you know very well, that the author of Matthew fabricated his own Jesus. Therefore, I don’t understand why you persist on asserting on quoting the author of Matthew. With all do respect DR Ehrman, I think you’re incorrect, when you assert and quote the author of Matthew, as though the author of ‘Matthew’ has chronicled for posterity what Jesus in fact believed and taught.
I believe that ‘Matthew’s’ version of the sermon on the mount could’ve, and most likely was, invented by the author of Matthew, just as the author of ‘Matthew’ made-up the narrative of the nativity. Yes we know Jesus was born, but, was Jesus born under the circumstances that the the author of Matthew records for us? The author of Matthew clearly puts words in Jesus’ mouth?
Who was the author of Matthew? Do we know who this person was?
Whoever He was — he was not an eyewitness of the life, suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus. Whoever he was — the author of Matthew is not a historically reliable source of what Jesus in fact taught and did. The author of ‘Matthew’ lies, invents stories and uses fables and legends. The author of ‘Matthew’ misinterprets OT passages, such as Isaiah 7:14 and Jeremiah 31:15. (look at Matthew (1:21-23) (Matthew 2:18)
Some other stories in Matthew are also contradicted by Luke, such as the story of the two criminals crucified next to Jesus, on either side of Jesus.
We can NOT KNOW what Jesus really said, or if Jesus said anything at all to the the criminals crucified on that day with him.
WE CAN ONLY KNOW FOR SURE THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED and that two criminal also were crucified with him.
We CAN NOT KNOW if both criminals insulted Jesus as Matthew says, or if one criminal insulted Jesus and the other criminal defended Jesus, as Luke says.
Of course, as you well know, DR Ehrman, the work of the author of Matthew, and also the work of every other author in the NT has been redacted by the scribes and copyists, who throughout the centuries, when copying a new scroll, changed and/or added words, sentences, and other stories not found in certain earlier copies of the NT manuscripts we currently have.
I, personally think, that what WE CAN KNOW what Paul thought about what would happen to Him when He died. Paul, to me, is a more trustworthy person than the author of Matthew. Paul’s ideas about what would happen to him when he died and to believers in general when we die, are authoritative and can be trusted to be what Jesus Himself taught Paul.
I personally believe Paul is telling the truth when he testifies that Jesus literally appeared to him and spoke to him, and told him exactly what to teach the churches.
I personally believe that the reason why Paul was so sure about what would happen to him when his time came to ‘depart’ and be with Christ, as he states it in Philippians, is because Paul did in fact, literally, see the resurrected Jesus, and Jesus answered Paul’s questions on the matter of what would happen to Paul on the day of his death.
To understand the mind of Paul concerning what would happen to Paul on the day of his death, we must consider that Paul claimed to have seen Jesus, just as Peter, John, James and many others claimed to have seen Jesus alive after His death by crucifixion.
We must also consider that Paul personally met Peter, John and James, who themselves also claimed to have seen Jesus alive after his death by crucifixion, and who also themselves claimed that Jesus had literally risen from the dead.
Was Paul lying to Peter, John and James, and were they Lying to Paul about seeing Jesus alive?
When quoting Paul, or any other book in the bible, we need to do our homework. We should have a knowledge of the controversies concerning the book, or the particular passage we are quoting from, to make certain we are not quoting a disputed passage or a passage that is not in the oldest NT manuscripts.
Anyone can speculate about what happens to a person when and after they die. I don’t think Paul was speculating about what would happen to him on the day of his death, I think Jesus himself told Paul what to expect. As a believer that God raised Jesus from the dead with the body and the spirit, I accept what Paul has to say about what happens to faithful believers and to not-so-faithful believers.
Paul also has very important insights, from the Lord Himself, about what happens to remorseless and impenitent unbelievers.
I do believe that the writings of Paul are the words of Jesus, and are words from God’s own mind.
I do not believe, nor do I consider the words of the author’s of the synoptic Gospels to be historically accurate, nor do I believe that their words should be considered Jesus’ words, nor God’ teaching.
The knowledge I have of the afterlife and what will happen to me and to other people when they die, is both objective and subjective. I know many things by faith. By faith I know that God created my body and designed me. By faith I understand that God created our planet Earth and the entire universe. By faith I know that God is Love and that God will honor my faith and He will do the right thing for me on the day on my death. I can’t prove to you that God exists and that He is a loving God!
However, it is also true, that you CAN NOT PROVE TO ME that God doesn’t exist and that the universe created itself.
For now, I Live my life by Faith in Jesus and by trusting in God. I’m satisfied with the evidence God has provided me for His existence, and by faith, I choose to believe that God is LOVE and that God is a Good being, and in Jesus, God is a loving person.
At the end of my life I will know for sure if I was correct or incorrect about God and the afterlife.
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I’ve long found it odd that RC references to purgatory focus on how many years, centuries, millennia, etc. one might suffer or have knocked off with the right indulgences. Do they think the masses are too dumb to realize the perception of time varies according to it’s absolute limit: the interval between birth and now, as well as the inevitability of death?. Take an end out of the equation and “a day is as a thousand years” etc. Do you think the times in purgatory are intended as a metaphor for the severity of the punishment, rather than its duration?
How do you determine a statement made by Jesus is literal or metaphorical Dr. Ehrman? Are there rules? When I am reading my own mind vacillates between the two perspectives. I just don’t know, Dr. Ehrman, as I bounce back and forth. Personally, as a long time Buddhist and yoga student, the consequences of one’s thoughts including base emotions such as anger are a daily if not minute to minute awareness and subject to conversion (depending on mental strength). And from a strictly Buddhist/yoga view/ we or I wouldn’t agree that none of us can go through life without etc. etc. That perfected state being Self Realization. It’s a blessing to be able to read your writing, Dr. Ehrman. Thank you. I find reading your wisdom thrilling.
Yes, great question. My approach is to assume he means something literally unless there is some indication that he means it other wise (as when he says “There was a man who went out to sow seeds….”)
Dr. Ehrman:
I am not confidently obsequious to your view of the word “Gehenna.” Your stating that Jesus is making a reference to a trash heap; in the Book of Jeremiah (7:31), this is clearly a reference to where the Kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire; consequently, it was deemed a place of curse and wickedness. How would Jesus ‘skip’ over that analogy? I’m certain he was aware of it and was certainly referring to fire and not trash.
I think you’ve misread me. I’m saying he is *not* referring to a garbage dump.