Loading...There is nothing better than a guest blog post that flat-out disagrees with me! And here we have one. Is it plausible that Jesus could have had large crowds gathering together to hear his preaching in rural Galilee? I say: Not really. Platinum blog member Doug Wadeson says: Oh yes!
As you may know, blog members on the Platinum Tier are allowed to write posts for other Platinum members. (Nice perk! If you’re not a platinum member: take a look at it and see if you’re interested. Just click JOIN [even if you belong already] and scroll to Platinum Tier and see). Every few weeks other Platinum members vote on which recent Platinum post should be posted on the blog at large. Doug’s won the prize.
Here’s his post. What do you think?
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On those few occasions when I have challenged something Dr. Ehrman has said he can usually shoot me down pretty quickly based on his range and depth of knowledge. But I am going to try again.
Dr. Ehrman has suggested that one reason the stories of Jesus attracting and preaching to large crowds are unrealistic is because most people were too busy during the day eking out a living to be able to spend time listening to his sermons. I have also heard him suggest that Jesus would have been too busy working as a laborer in Nazareth to have the time to travel to the city of Sepphoris, about 4 miles from Nazareth. The significance of Sepphoris is that some speculate that if Jesus worked in that city he would have been exposed to more advanced culture and philosophy and that could have influenced his teachings. So, did people have time to listen to Jesus, and did Jesus have time to visit places like Sepphoris?
The idea of preaching to large crowds did not start with Jesus, but with John the Baptizer: “And ALL the country of Judea was going out to him, and ALL the people of Jerusalem…” (Mark 1:5). Let’s allow for some exaggeration here, but the idea is that large numbers of people went out to hear John preach. The gospels continue that image with Jesus, as in the Sermon on the Mount: “Now when Jesus saw the crowds…” (Matthew 5:1), and particularly in the tales of his preaching to and then feeding large groups of people: “There were about five thousand men who ate, besides women and children” (Mathew 14:21), “And those who ate were four thousand men, besides women and children” (Matthew 15:38). Again, let’s allow for some exaggeration of the numbers but the idea is clearly that Jesus sometimes preached to large groups of people. Is this realistic?
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Splendid, Doug. Thanks.
Indeed, many thanks.
I remember reading this post and it bringing up more questions than convincing me of any answers.
How was work, and living, organised in that time? I wonder.
Are there other sources describing crowd gatherings around a teacher, other than the New Testament?
If we agree the numbers are greatly exaggerated, why should we believe these events are not simply made up?
Was Jesus the influential historical figure, or was it those who later on created this mythical figure around this particular end of days preacher, putting words in his mouth and deeds in his resume so as to redefine him that are really the influential figures? Like Paul, and the so called first fathers.
Was the first good news “the end of days are coming and God will rule through his new earthly king – so prepare, become pure” transformed later on to “hey, no worry: no complicated ritual necessary! You only have to believe that Jesus is your Savior and you are saved. Easy.”?
And was it this later invented notion that made the reinvented Jesus so popular, and not his “repent, the end is near” teaching?
It’s questions like these that keep the scholars going! Dr. Ehrman recently had an episode on his Misquoting Jesus podcast about the teachings of Jesus vs those of Paul. Doesn’t directly answer some of your questions, but certainly relates to them.
One could also try to bring other examples of itinerant preachers, gurus, and would-be prophets from pre-industrial times. Some may be affluent elite philosophers, but surely we should be able to find others whose means of living are unclear, but apparently didn’t starve to death either.
Reading this article I was picturing Life of Brian’s row of apocalyptic preachers the whole time.
Note to Pr Ehrman: your bringing of disagreeing voices on your very own blog is absolutely commendable. Please continue doing that.
I’ll make sure Dr. E sees your comment. (He normally leaves such comments to the guest poster.)
Thanks for the post. The size of the crowds Jesus spoke to has been long debated. And while open to the idea that hundreds (maybe not thousands) gathered to hear Jesus, I still have a couple of questions. Putting aside for a moment whether or not folks had the time to attend a Jesus seminar, I’ve got to wonder where in the world these people came from in the first place? While not familiar with 1st century Galilean census numbers, I doubt there were 400 – let alone 4,000 – interested and able bodied souls within Jesus’s immediate vicinity. Also, just how would folks outside of Jesus’s inner circle even be aware that he was planning to speak? Seems to me it would take days for the word of a gathering to spread around Galilee. Anyway, I can’t shake the feeling that crowd sizes were enhancements backdated into the Jesus stories told after his death. That said, am wide open to learning about facts pointing towards larger Jesus crowds.
As I stated, I think there is some exaggeration in these stories, but note in Matthew 14:13 in the story of the feeding of the 5,000, “they followed Him on foot from the cities.” It’s not like all these people would be from a small town like Nazareth. I wonder if another element here is that it was important to Jesus’ disciples to make Jesus bigger than John: See, just as John drew people from the cities into the wilderness, so did Jesus!
It is my understanding that his mother Mary was from Sepphoris, so, he would have had a family connection there and I am sure family friends. Dr. Ehrman can confirm the reality of this connection.
Dr. James Tabor, who has guest posts on the blog, has written about Jesus’ family, and he cites a tradition that Mary was born in Sepphoris (in “The Jesus Dynasty”). Unfortunately, many of the traditions about Jesus’ family (as in the Proto-gospel of James) seem too imaginative to me. Still, Sepphoris is only 4 miles from Nazareth. Hard to believe Jesus would not want to visit the big city. (Tabor also suggests that when Jesus says “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” he is remembering the sight of Sepphoris in the distance, which is in fact built on a hill.)
Doug,
Good points on the labour situation and workday schedules. I don’t have much of a quarrel with Jesus eventually having a large crowds of over a thousand if we factor in some word-of-mouth marketing efforts (12 energized disciples would do the trick!) and build-ups to some ‘special’ event sermons that everyone within a 5-mile range was encouraged to attend – especially if some food and drink was likely to be available to all. The only missing element is that there is not much of a record of any marketing efforts being done. But there is evidence that Jesus was certainly gaining more and more attention thru some means. It seems plausible that Jesus’ “Palm Sunday” entry into Jerusalem was a bit of a spectacle of support if his fan base had consistent growth over the course of his ministry.
A counter view might argue that Jesus might of setup for occasional large events, but had trouble growing his fan base due to his many difficult teachings. How many blessed workers would be that interested in walking for hours to attend long sermons about giving away all their possessions?
Even today in less-developed countries people may walk for a few hours to attend church services. The gospels preserved the idea of Jesus teaching at these gatherings but there may have been more going on: singing, (dancing?), sharing of a meal (a tradition carried into the early church), and I suspect the sick presented themselves to Jesus to be prayed over. So, probably more of an event than just a sermon. As for the teaching about giving away possessions, most of the people were poor and didn’t have much in the way of possessions, so they probably would have interpreted that as being targeted at the more wealthy people, and probably would have applauded the idea!
Good thoughts, Doug.
“Blessed are the cheesemakers!”
Indeed! It certainly would have been a challenge to preach to an extremely large group, but the gospels mention Jesus preaching from a boat (sound travels nicely across water) and a hillside, so maybe he did have some methods for preaching to large groups, especially if we’re talking hundreds, not thousands.
How many people do you and Bart mean when you say ‘’large’’ groups?
What evidence is there to indicate what a typical day in the life of 1st century Nazarene/Galilean was like? How much do we know, and with what degree of certainty? You mention Roman records of the workday, but would it necessarily be the same in a tiny province town vs Rome?
Did they exchange money in Nazareth? If not, how does that affect the concept of unemployment as we know it? In any case, I’m sure there were people who didn’t work, if they were physically unable or simply lazy.
Even if people needed to work 8/10/12 hour days, surely they took breaks to eat and prevent exhaustion. As you mentioned, the sabbath and after work would afford opportunities to meet. I’m not sure 4 miles in an hour was realistic in the ancient world, depending on terrain and presence/quality of roads. I agree it would be doable for the motivated.
Few people would contest that Jesus travelled to Jerusalem, accompanied by followers, and preached. It seems likely he had practice, perhaps on ”large” or medium sized groups, before taking his show to the big stage.
Of course the gospels say there were groups in the thousands, but I think even a few hundred would be a large group in Galilee. I remember reading an article that suggested that medieval workers probably worked less hours than modern workers do (their expenses were much less!), but I’m not sure that translates to 1st Century Palestine. I didn’t mention this in the article, but the Gospels do mention Jesus teaching from a boat, across the water, and from a hillside. These might represent ways in which he could get his voice to project to a large crowd. So I think preaching to reasonably large crowds is at least a possibility.
This region is not necessarily known for its extensive forests, so, if that was also the case in antiquity, there might not have been much opportunity or need for carpenters. If Joseph and his family worked in crafts, including carpentry, and there were few, if any, other families also engaged in carpentry, Joseph might have had a region where his shop was the only one available. In that case, it would seem likely that Jesus and his brothers would have taken turns going to neighboring towns on those towns’ market days in order to sell their products, to take orders, and to look for sources of wood. If Sepphoris was only four miles away, it would have been well within the distance they could have covered with a donkey carrying their goods.
Good point: Sepphoris would be a better market for their goods.
What is your definition of “large”?
A priest begins a sermon to about 200 parishioners in a church, only to suddenly stop because the sound system wasn’t working and the people in the back couldn’t hear. What if he was outside, addressing a crowd of 1000 in the parking lot, without a microphone?
Hard to believe Jesus could successfully preach to a couple thousand (correcting for crowd size exaggeration) while on a hill (or plain). I have no problem with the idea people came to hear Him preach, but the audiences must have been quite small.
I wonder if Jesus preached a sermon en masse, but rather moved among the crowd answering questions and teaching as he went. But in the gospels condensed into sermons.
I suspect Jesus delivered much the same “sermon” on multiple occasions to small (<40) gatherings; instead of reporting on each one, the author(s) conflated them into one mega-homily. It's also possible he fed each gathering and had leftovers, but the gospels eliminated the "each".
Another thought exercise: if you are on a guided walking tour, the number of participants is usually limited to allow everyone to gather close to the guide whenever (s)he stops to talk. There have been times when, on the outer fringe of the group, I was unable to hear what was said.
I agree that most events were likely smaller, but in the Gospels, like the “Sermon on the Mount” they get combined to portray them bigger. It was important for them to portray Jesus as larger-than-life – or at least bigger than John the Baptist.
It was a quieter world. When hiking in the woods I have heard conversations hundreds of feet away. We don’t realize how much noise pollution affects our lives (and maybe our anxiety level– I am a psychiatrist)
Jesus preaches from a boat in one story (Mark 4:1), and sound carries well across water. A mountainside (Matthew 5:1) may also form a natural amphitheater, as suggested by your hiking experiences. So, I think preaching to large groups is feasible, although thousands would have been a challenge. (BTW, I’m starting a blog for my unconventional Bible articles. Some of the ones I have loaded look at whether God has a split personality, and whether Abraham was a psychopath. TheBibleUndressed.blog if you’re interested.)
Well, Bart, as you know, doesn’t think Jesus ever visited Sepphoris. I think Bart is absolutely wrong. I was in Sepphoris last year, and you can see Nazareth from Sepphoris. It’s only an hour and a half to two hour walk.
Even as a teenager, it’s hard to believe Jesus never went to Sepphoris just to check it out. And maybe he worked there to earn a living since Herod Antipas building up the city during Jesus’ life. For me, it’s just common sense that Jesus went to Sepphoris.
I agree!
The distance between Nazareth and Sepphoris is probably best measured in culture rather than in miles. To the early apocalyptic Jesus movement a thoroughly Hellenized Sepphoris was most likely seen as a hotbed of compromise with the evil forces of the age.
I do think it likely that Jesus left behind some sort of community in Galilee. Hardly hundreds but one can imagine a network of a few dozen in the smaller villages. Jewish Christianity began somewhere! And it is interesting that Mark has Jesus command the disciples to return to Galilee. Historically, perhaps that’s where the first resurrection appearances began?
We know that ancient people had time for many community events. Rome would shut down for days for a festival or triumph. The villages of Galilee had days-long weddings, they worked only 6 days/week. If something was important to them, they found time to do it. The gospels tell us that getting healed from their many sicknesses was important to the people. Even in the horrid times of the dark ages, Peter the Hermit spoke to at least 10’s of thousands and probably more.
Our minds are messed up by our visions of American frontier farmers working from dawn to dusk. The ancient world didn’t have the same kind of mindset. They weren’t hacking a farm out of the wilderness. The farm and its buildings had been there for generations. Also, they didn’t have the same high standards of living. But even in the American West, towns shut down for weeks for camp meetings.
This is one argument by Dr. Ehrman that holds no water at all.
Thanks for reading and giving an insightful comment.
I think a lot of what he said was combined together as “sermons” just because it reads better as a story in the gospel narratives. What if he was more like Paul, just working wherever he went and talking to whoever would listen? That then maybe turned into a full time ministry. So maybe lots of small to medium sized groups at any given time got wrapped up into being a huge crowd and extensive sermon to fit the narrative of the gospel writers. I think it would be hard to picture him getting executed as a political revolutionary if he didn’t have a large following. One man isn’t a threat. A leader of a movement disrupting the economy is a huge threat.
It’s easy to transpose our busy American culture where you work 12 hours a day, sleep, repeat. But if you look at central America today, people get up early to work the morning, and then spend time with family and community in afternoons into evening. I saw this also in rural Afghanistan. Much more family and community centric vs individual centric. So I think that could be highly possible in antiquity as well.
Insightful comments. Thanks!
Since Jesus was a `hand worker’, like his father and brothers, he would look for employment doing hand work of any kind: masonry work in nearby towns, harvesting in the fields, fishing related work, etc. Its plausible Joseph died or divorced Mary when Jesus was, say, around twelve years old. That means Jesus would have to go to work to support his mother and younger siblings. Imagine a young twelve-year-old Jesus coming home to find Mary in tears because Joseph just divorced her. Imagine, the next day, a traumatized and stunned Jesus’ walking to Sepphoris to find work. If a scenario like that is true, then Jesus would resent Joseph and the mosaic law condoning divorce. Perhaps that is why Jesus opposed divorce, considered God his true father, and it would explain why he didn’t get married: because he had to take over Joseph’s job. When Jesus’ brothers became old enough, they could help support Mary leaving Jesus free for other things. But about the grossly exaggerated crowd sizes described in the gospels. It could simply be that the gospel writers lived in big Roman cities and were used to important people having large crowds.
Interesting speculation about Jesus’ life: I wish we had more reliable information. I think your last point is very good: making Jesus comparable to other prominent men of his day in the Roman world. I think they also wanted to show Jesus had as much or more influence than John the Baptist, who was said to attract large crowds.
Do see my recent series of guest posts here for more about John the Baptist and his relation to Jesus, or better Jesus’ relation to him! 🙂
Since there were no microphones for Jesus to use, how in the world would a crowd even hear him?
One story has Jesus preaching from a boat – sound carries well across water. The depiction of Jesus teaching on a mountainside (Matthew 5:1) may show another method by which Jesus used natural surroundings to help his voice carry. But if the crowds really were thousands, it would be a challenge. I suspect Jesus mostly spoke to smaller groups, or even in larger gatherings wandered through the crowd, teaching and answering questions as he went.
Man, you know how to write, Doug! I am putting that 1 Samuel passage in my pocket.
So, kinda wondering why you didn’t mention the 4,000 pieces of serving ware found at Qumran? Banquets of size were a thing.
Also, for fun, if we take a plain reading of the Gospels (I like gLuke) is there a reason why the grown son of a handmaiden to a Lord would need subsistence work? Ishmael was the son of a handmaiden to a Lord, and he was promised rulership of a nation in the Biblical narrative. The Babylonian Talmud, part of which writes down long-standing oral tradition circa the 2nd CE, codifies full patrilineal rights for heirs of these types of “surrogate” relationships.
Also, what influence, if any, do you think the war over the loss of Galilee’s Nabataean queen Phaesal might have had on these charitable sermon feeds? Chuza is a classic Nabataean name; he’s the finance manager husband of Joanna, one of the women that financially supports Jesus’ mission. With secret allyship highly prized, I find the gathering of under-served people relevant to a regime change war,
Thanks for reading and commenting. I was mostly sticking with clues from the Gospels themselves, although the part about Sepphoris obviously employs some speculation.