Conclusion: Consciousness can get unlocked from the constraints of a 4-dimensional world.
A high dimensional consciousness experience (higher than a 4-dimensional reality) can pass through 4-dimensional world.
And, yes, the mind is connected to more than the 4-dimensional reality. Against Comment 50, it is connected to a 4+ dimensional world and has given us people who make accurate predictions of the future. Period.
There was not a single one of Nostradamus’ “prophecies” that was interpreted before the fact. Always only afterwards were they suddenly discovered to apply. Also they were originally written in an obscure difficult dialect of French. Easy to interpret given the proper imagination.
I predict Steefen will not agree.
What are the facts of WWII, Porphyry-on-the-periphery?
First, no need to be smug. I was explicitly talking about WWI: “Spain was neutral in WWI, and Italy was an ally to Russia.”
Your paraphrase of Nostradamus’s prediction says that after a war and holocaust, Russia would expand and then collapse after 73 years. You took the clock to start in 1918 (so it would end in ’91), so I presumed the war and holocaust that preceded the expansion and eventual collapse was supposed to be WWI, not WWII.
I guess I’m just not as good at reading clear prophecies though.
Second, I seem to remember your insisting that we not engage in name-calling.
Periphery issues Porphyry.
Are you and Stephen so 4 dimensional materialistic that you two think there is not one higher dimension–7 individual probabilities or all 7? Not one can encroach on the four dimensional world?
No remote viewing …
Even though the U.S. military and the Soviet military explored this before the Soviet Union collapsed?
Institute for Defense Studies and Analysis (IDSA):
the more important implication of the findings of RV research to humanity as a whole perhaps is that it serves to validate the age-old concept of many Eastern wisdom-traditions that have always emphasised the non-local nature of human ‘consciousness’.
Thus it serves to provide some degree of scientific validity to various forms of spiritual and distant healing practices as emphasised by Russell Targ himself in his 1997 book titled Miracles of Mind.
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You can say it is possible and good science til you are blue in the face, but I’m not going to accept it until I see evidence.
I asked you back on page 1 for what you thought was the “clearest case of veridical perception during an NDE (or of veridical precognition following an NDE)”?
You refused.
If you want to open the discussion up outside of NDEs to other cases of veridical precognition, we can. But I want documentation, real evidence, not bare assertions.
Britanica:
Space perception research also offers insight into ways that perceptual behaviour helps orient the individual to the environment. Specifically, orientation in space typically seems to reflect one’s strivings (e.g., to seek food or to avoid injury). People could not orient themselves to their environments, however, unless the environmental information reaching them through the various sense organs offered a perception of space that corresponds to their physical “reality.” Such perception is called veridical perception—the direct perception of stimuli as they exist.
People die on operating tables.
People rise out of their body and they can see the room where the body is on the operating table.
That is veridical perception.
Then they go to the foyer of the afterlife.
That is not veridical perception of a four dimensional location, like standing in front of the Empire State Building.
And you say this topic was not covered?
With all of the cases of people seeing where they died, you’re saying there are no clear cases of veridical perception, spatial perception.
And you say this topic was not covered?
I’m saying I asked you to give me what you consider the clearest and best documented example, and you have so far refused.
I would stress to you that I am not closed-minded. I am skeptical. I do think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I do doubt that you will be able to provide me with extraordinary evidence that with withstand scrutiny. But I am willing to look to see if there is something there, and I am willing to change my beliefs if I find a reason to.
With all of the cases of people seeing where they died, you’re saying there are no clear cases of veridical perception, spatial perception.
I’m not asserting that there are none, I’m asking to be shown one that is clear and well-documented.
Also the sheer number of claims doesn’t warrant the presumption that some of those claims must be true. Individual claims have to be examined individually. I’m not going to assume that some are true just because there are so many, just as I’m not going to assume all are false just because Alex Malarkey (seriously, that’s his real name; if you made this up no one would believe it), co-author and subject of the bestselling book, The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven, recanted.
BTW, veridical doesn’t necessarily pertain to spatial awareness specifically. It just means conveying truth or conforming to reality, as opposed to something illusory or deceptive.
Porphyry:
Also the sheer number of claims doesn’t warrant the presumption that some of those claims must be true. Individual claims have to be examined individually. I’m not going to assume that some are true just because there are so many.
I WANT
the clearest and best documented example of the many.
Steefen:
AGAIN, at the moment, I do not have that handy and if you cannot find it on google with all of the AI out there not having it handy either, then you won’t know there is hail until it breaks your windshield and you have to pay $400 to replace it.
Porphyry:
BTW, veridical doesn’t necessarily pertain to spatial awareness specifically. It just means conveying truth or conforming to reality, as opposed to something illusory or deceptive.
Steefen:
This has already been covered:
the operating room in which the spirit/consciousness has left the body and is looking down at operating table and surgeons is not illusory.
Or do you think that is illusory?
but you seem to think when the spirit keeps going, then it goes to an illusory place. I disagree with that.
Porphyry: I WANT the clearest and best documented example of the many.
That is not what I said. I have consistently asked for what you consider the clearest and best-documented case. And I hope it was clear from context that I mean, what you consider the clearest from among those you know of (as I mentioned in the quotation below, I’m working from the assumption, based on your conviction, that you know of at least one case that is more compelling than I have been able to find). I’m certainly not asking you to research all purported NDEs and assess which of the thousands is the best of all cases.
Steefen: AGAIN, at the moment, I do not have that handy and if you cannot find it on google with all of the AI out there not having it handy either, then you won’t know there is hail until it breaks your windshield and you have to pay $400 to replace it.
First, I don’t think you have said you don’t have that handy until now, so I’m not sure why you would start with an exasperated “AGAIN” in all caps.
Second, as I pointed out way back on page one of this thread:
I have already searched for well documented cases. I have not been at all impressed by what I found.
That is why I asked you, who are obviously aware of something more compelling than I’ve been able to find, what “you consider the best-documented, clearest case . . . ”
Google has been useless in answering that.
So finally, when you say you don’t have a case handy that you can offer as, in your opinion, the clearest and best documented, does that mean you are not presently aware of any clear and well documented cases?
I have not ranked NDE cases of dying on operating tables or in car accidents or being struck by lightning or life between life cases appearing in Michael Newton Books
Life between Lives
Wisdom of Souls
Memories of the Afterlife
Journey of Souls
Destiny of Souls
or Tom Shroder’s Old Souls: Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives, Part of Scientific Search for Proof of Past Lives
or my own visions of the future (not documented)
or a family member who had an NDE (not documented)
I haven’t divided these experiences between those who came back with psychic powers they didn’t already have from those who did not come back with extra powers.
Do I look for clear and best documented cases of the existence of other people in my city, of hail?
No.
There are so many clear and best documented cases of other people, hail, NDEs, NDEs with receiving psychic powers.
Do I look for clear and best documented cases of the existence of other people in my city, of hail?
No.There are so many clear and best documented cases of other people, hail, NDEs, NDEs with receiving psychic powers
Okay, there are a lot of clear and well documented cases. Can you pick one?
That is over 5 hours of videos.
Here is the thing: I am skeptical that what would convince me is actually out there. But I’m not dogmatic; I am willing to consider evidence that would change my mind.
Although I am open to being convinced, I do not think it is at all likely that the evidence that would change my mind is out there (that’s why I’m skeptical in the first place). I’m not going to invest a lot of time looking for something I don’t think is waiting to be found. (I have already spent some time looking–that has so far confirmed me in my skepticism; but there is a limit to how much time and effort I will put into a search that I suspect will be futile.)
That’s why I asked you for what you considered the clearest and best-documented case of veridical perception in an NDE. I want to cut to the chase and start with the best and strongest case, the most convincing claim. If there are convincing claims out there, I want to start with those, and not waste time looking at the less convincing or simply unconvincing cases. By asking people who believe in NDEs and have spent time learning about them, I should have a good shot at getting, if not the absolute best, at least one of the strongest and most convincing cases; naturally, there may not be any one case that is clearly the best and most convincing–on the one hand, there might be many that are very convincing, with none clearly better than the others, or, on the other hand, there might be none that are at all convincing. In either case, asking a few people, who know a bit about NDEs and who believe in them, what they consider the clearest and best-documented case should give me a reasonable sample of what I can expect to find.
If your favored case is compelling, it could change, or at least begin to change, my attitude and lead me to decide it is worth investing more time to look deeper into the phenomenon; but if the case you present as well-documented and clear is just a person giving his personal story without any evidence to examine or any corroboration (and the person happens to be selling books or living off his speaking fees), it will probably confirm my prior skepticism and convince me that there is little point spending time looking into such claims any further.
Coming back, then, to the videos: I’m not inclined to invest over 5 hours watching videos, without any promise of what each holds, just so I can see if one of them might (which, I doubt) have something to change my mind.
Indeed, the reluctance of a proponent of NDEs to offer a single clear and well-documented example, when asked, only confirms me in my skepticism: If there isn’t a clear and well-documented example, it is to be expected that proponents will throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks rather than just point to one clear case, simply because they haven’t got one clear case they can point to.
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