I am not an academic but try to look at any issue as thoroughly as my limited knowledge and intellect allows. I obtain books on the subjects that interest me and attempt to understand their points and see how much of their conclusions I agree with. I do not believe that a supernatural being created the universe, nor the first humans to have lived on Earth.
But I am happy to accept that we are beings with not only a physical body, but one with a soul and spirituality. I think man created God, for all sorts of reasons, but that it is a positive creation, which has been adopted, adapted, developed and used in some very good ways.
I don’t believe in miracles (same as Colin Blunstone), so cannot consider myself a “true” christian in that I reject the risen Jesus and the array of miracles and signs attributed to him. But I am a major fan of the christian message as I read it. Being honest, loving others, helping as well and as often as able. Being kind, generous, compassionate, looking out for others and essentially being good.
As I don’t hold with the word that God created the universe, nor that he sent his son to die for us and take away our sin, I therefore do not qualify for being saved, born again or a Christian. I cannot subscribe to an afterlife, heaven and hell, it just does not compute with my (limited) learning.
But I believe that I can get very close to what those who are saved believe and feel (outside of the Creationist and Resurrection ideologies.) I believe it desirable (for me) to have a spiritual life, not just to see things in a literal, material or physical way. Thus, I am desirous to invite the spirit of God (as I accept it) into my body, pray to this higher of better part of me to guide me, help make me a better person, more willing and able to help others and do good wherever and whenever I can.
I enjoy reading, including the bible, which I feel has lessons worth understanding, but I do not class it as inerrant. I suppose I pick and chose what I feel is instructive and helpful and feel that a good number of people wrote various parts of the scriptures and in doing so advanced their own agenda, beliefs and designs. There is subsequently a fair amount of consensus and also a noticeable degree of difference.
But as I enjoy the church that I attend, where I am welcomed warmly, where there is joy and an abundance of love and community, I would hope to continue going there, even if my singing is not in complete accord with those who are praising the One who is worthy of it all. I feel sustained by this church, I feel accepted by those within this congregation and I enjoy their kindness and care.
So, am I a hypocrite to participate in this church life, knowing that if push comes to shove, we would diverge at critical issues, or is it acceptable to contribute what I can with these people I respect and like, believing that in all other respects we have a lot more in common than what we differ over?
I kind of feel like anybody who can even wonder if they’re okay is probably at least on the road to being okay. I think that was more or less Jesus’ point. The Publican might get there. The Pharisee won’t (that particular Pharisee, not Pharisees in general). The Good Samaritan is actually okay, even if he never hears about Jesus, or even once goes to whatever kind of religious service Samaritans went to. He knows who he is, what he must do. What else is there? Well, ordinary life, which is what has us all upset so much of the time.
Humans tend to overthink everything, spirituality included. Spirituality isn’t about thinking, but being.
Did the universe just create itself? Why is there something and not nothing?
Cosmologists are never good atheists. Because the more you think about why things exist, the more you realize there has to be a reason. But that you’ll never know what it is. Somebody does.
Happy Monday. Here’s a song for Sunday.
I don’t think it is hypocritical for a non-believer or someone “on the fence” to attend a church. I was raised in a secular household and never completely bought into Christianity (at least not some of the more militant versions of Christianity). But when I was in my early 20s, fresh out of college and missing the social environment of college, my non-religious father suggested that I join a church because they have social activities.
Now, your attendance in your church seems to be more productive than any of my attempts at joining churches have been. So, I say you should stick with it. If you find a social network that is better than your church group, you could consider dropping your church group. But why? If you feel connect to people at your church, keep going. This is especially true if you could be honest with them about your agnosticism (or atheism) and still be accepted in the group.
Human beings are social animals. Some desire more interaction with others, some less.
For me the challenge in finding a church that I like is that I have a unusual combination of beliefs/non-beliefs in that I am politically conservative (but didn’t vote for Trump), liberal on social issues like same-sex marriage, abortion and immigration but am a non-believer in Christianity.
The churches that tend to take a nearly agnostic view of the Bible’s truthfulness tend to be pretty far to the Left politically. The churches that are right of center politically tend to take the view that Jesus is the only way to salvation.
There is a Unitarian-Universalist church near where I live and I did enjoy attending one of their book club meetings. But right now my main social group is a vegan-vegetarian group that supports healthy eating. We meet once per month.
Didn’t mean to hijack the thread with my own story. But I like the fact that you can interact with people at your church and see no reason why you shouldn’t continue.
The Catholic Worker movement was (and is) way further left than anyone posting here, and they never openly questioned scripture. Dorothy Day just believed in focusing on what Jesus had actually taught, which was further ‘left’ than anything Marx ever wrote. Assuming you believe one can categorize people based on the seating arrangement of the French Revolutionary assembly in the 18th century. And I don’t
Juicy Jiffy
We are beings with a physical body, a soul, and spirituality.
I think man created God, for all sorts of reasons, but that it is a positive creation, which has been adopted, adapted, developed and used in some very good ways.
I am a major fan of the Christian message as I read it. Being honest…
I do not qualify for being a Christian.
I cannot subscribe to an afterlife.
Although I do not subscribe to an afterlife, I limit my definition of spirituality that way. What remains is that spirituality means not seeing life only in a literal, material or physical way.
Although I do not subscribe to an afterlife but there is a spirit of God. I am desirous to invite that “spirit” into my body, pray to this higher/better part of me, to guide me, etc.
Church is a place where people are welcomed warmly, where there is joy, where there is love, and where theire is community.
Church is a place where I am accepted, receive kindness and care, and where I am sustained.
When I sing, I am not in complete accord with others. So, am I a hypocrite? We diverge at critical issues.
Should I remain in this community with members I respect and like because we have more in common than we have differences?
Steefen
Man cannot retroactively create gods who **by definition would have been around before the evolution of hominid species**.
Volcano-god, for example, were there volcanos on Earth only after hominid species evolved?
Are you sure they are not contaminating you?
Are you sure you are not contaminating them?
godspell said
I wish you’d post more about things like this, instead of things you don’t know about.
You are in error about what I do not know.
Instead of pulling down the quality of the Readers Forum, just make a substantive counter-claim when you think something is not reasonable or factual.
You have damaged your credibility a very long time ago and do so on a daily basis. You were one of the reasons Ehrman put limits on the Forums where he places his posts. Your nonsense has no end on these Reader Forums but your nonsense has limits on the Forums where Bart posts. Rolling on the Floor Laughing in Gratitude because scrolling over the nonsense you were posting there–ignoring you–was SUCH a waste of time there, too.
Juicyjiffy said
I am not an academic but try to look at any issue as thoroughly as my limited knowledge and intellect allows. I obtain books on the subjects that interest me and attempt to understand their points and see how much of their conclusions I agree with. I do not believe that a supernatural being created the universe, nor the first humans to have lived on Earth.But I am happy to accept that we are beings with not only a physical body, but one with a soul and spirituality. I think man created God, for all sorts of reasons, but that it is a positive creation, which has been adopted, adapted, developed and used in some very good ways.
I don’t believe in miracles (same as Colin Blunstone), so cannot consider myself a “true” christian in that I reject the risen Jesus and the array of miracles and signs attributed to him. But I am a major fan of the christian message as I read it. Being honest, loving others, helping as well and as often as able. Being kind, generous, compassionate, looking out for others and essentially being good.
As I don’t hold with the word that God created the universe, nor that he sent his son to die for us and take away our sin, I therefore do not qualify for being saved, born again or a Christian. I cannot subscribe to an afterlife, heaven and hell, it just does not compute with my (limited) learning.
But I believe that I can get very close to what those who are saved believe and feel (outside of the Creationist and Resurrection ideologies.) I believe it desirable (for me) to have a spiritual life, not just to see things in a literal, material or physical way. Thus, I am desirous to invite the spirit of God (as I accept it) into my body, pray to this higher of better part of me to guide me, help make me a better person, more willing and able to help others and do good wherever and whenever I can.
I enjoy reading, including the bible, which I feel has lessons worth understanding, but I do not class it as inerrant. I suppose I pick and chose what I feel is instructive and helpful and feel that a good number of people wrote various parts of the scriptures and in doing so advanced their own agenda, beliefs and designs. There is subsequently a fair amount of consensus and also a noticeable degree of difference.
But as I enjoy the church that I attend, where I am welcomed warmly, where there is joy and an abundance of love and community, I would hope to continue going there, even if my singing is not in complete accord with those who are praising the One who is worthy of it all. I feel sustained by this church, I feel accepted by those within this congregation and I enjoy their kindness and care.
So, am I a hypocrite to participate in this church life, knowing that if push comes to shove, we would diverge at critical issues, or is it acceptable to contribute what I can with these people I respect and like, believing that in all other respects we have a lot more in common than what we differ over?
Concept Christian may not be an appropriate term. There are some concepts you do not accept.
I have to address this issue myself because
Jesus rejected God and led people astray.
If you want to equate God with Allah, you are saying Jesus rejected Allah.
= = = = = =
Jesus is not God in the Gospel of John. Jesus is not even pro-Hebrew God in John. Jesus takes a destructive stance against God and the Jewish religion (relationship between Hebrew God and worshippers).
* * * Genesis 9: 4
But you must not eat meat with its lifeblood still in it.
* * * Psalms 27: 8 and Leviticus 17: 10-11
When You said, “Seek my face,” my heart said unto You, “Your face, Lord, I will seek.”
Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. I have given the blood to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar…
* * * Deuteronomy 12: 15-16
But whenever you wish, you may slaughter and eat meat within any of your gates, according to the blessing the LORD your God has given you. Those who are clean or unclean may eat it, as they would a gazelle or deer, but you must not eat the blood; pour it on the ground like water.
* * * Deuteronomy 28: 53-55
53During the siege and hardship that your enemy will impose on you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters whom the LORD your God has given you. 54The most gentle and refined man among you will begrudge his brother, the wife he embraces, and the rest of his children who have survived, 55refusing to share with any of them the flesh of his children that he will eat because he has nothing left in the siege and hardship your enemy will impose on all your cities
* * * 1 Samuel 14: 32-33
So they rushed greedily to the plunder, taking sheep, cattle, and calves. They slaughtered them on the ground and ate meat with the blood still in it. Then someone reported to Saul: “Look, the troops are sinning against the LORD by eating meat with the blood still in it.” …
* * * Jeremiah 19: 8-9
I will make this city a desolation and an object of scorn. All who pass by will be horrified, and will scoff because of all its wounds. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh in the siege and distress inflicted on them by their enemies who seek their lives.’
* * * Lamentations 4: 9-11
Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of hunger, who waste away, pierced with pain because the fields lack produce. 10The hands of compassionate women have cooked their own children, who became their food in the destruction of the daughter of my people. 11The LORD has exhausted His wrath; He has poured out His fierce anger; He has kindled a fire in Zion, and it has consumed her foundations.
* * * At Acts 15: 13, 20, “…James spoke…abstain… from blood.”
After All of the above Paul and Jesus DEFIANTLY said the following, knowing it was the theological and religious deal breaker, a sacrament of atheism and defeat.
* * * 1 Cor 11: 23-25, Luke 22: 19-20, Matthew 26: 26-29, Mark 14: 22-25
The Lord Jesus took bread and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said This is my body which is for you , do this in remembrance of me. In the same way, after supper, he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenent IN MY BLOOD, do this whenever you drink it in remembrance of me.”
* * * John 6: 51-66
Live forever by eating the bread which is my flesh.
Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man AND drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day.
My flesh is real food [not metaphorical food] and my blood is real drink [not metaphorical drink].
Disciples said: This is hard teaching. Who can accept this?
Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?”
From this time, many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
= = =
Jesus’ rejection of God contaminates Christianity unless that his how Jesus saved us: Saved us from a God who did not help the Jews win the Battle of Galilee during the Jewish Revolt and from a God who did not help stop the destruction of Herod’s Temple.
Jeez pardon me for returning to the subject but Juicyjiffy what you describe has its analog in what’s called “cultural” Judaism. I don’t think any of the Jews of my acquaintance actually believe in God. What they believe in is their culture, their practice and customs. If Christianity is to survive this is a possible path. The conservative commentator George Will, an atheist, describes himself as a “rationalist who likes the sound of church bells”.
Have you asked these Jews of your acquaintance? No doubt there are many atheists who continue to proudly call themselves Jews, but the fact remains–without Judaism, there would be no Jewish people. Not for very long. There would be no basis for that group continuing to exist in any coherent form. There is hardly a unified ethnic identity, after millennia of immigration and intermarriage and assimilation (some Jews are black).
The Jewish people have had the longest relationship with a deity of any people on earth. And because they don’t mainly believe everything in the Torah is literally true doesn’t mean the legacy of their ancestors means nothing to them. And the legacy of their ancestors is faith.
Thank you Steph
Stephen said
Jeez pardon me for returning to the subject but Juicyjiffy what you describe has its analog in what’s called “cultural” Judaism. I don’t think any of the Jews of my acquaintance actually believe in God. What they believe in is their culture, their practice and customs. If Christianity is to survive this is a possible path. The conservative commentator George Will, an atheist, describes himself as a “rationalist who likes the sound of church bells”.
Thank you Stephen. I was trying to be concise and summarise my interest in Christianity whilst acknowledging why my beliefs would set me outside the mainstream convictions of the church I attend. I will explore “cultural Judaism” and find out a bit more about the thoughts and ideas of George Wills. It was to get some constructive feedback and learn more that I expressed my point of view. Thank you, Jeff
My former atheist book club met on Sunday mornings. (My work keeps me from regular attendance). We had someone attend one of the first couple of meetings that was in his church choir. He would not comply with the term atheist (we tried waterboarding, shaming) but being a mathematics professor he believed in Organization or that Cause was inherent in the universe around him. He left us and went back to his choir, where he probably felt safer.
I liked Godspell’s point about being. It is so true. I fear I could not sit through most sermons these days, but then even as a kid I thought most sermons were more holey than holy. But singing. Wow. Worshipping. Wow. These are the things that people cannot describe without adding other dimensional creatures like the Soul. These are the things I miss. Certainly church is a (mostly) safe space where one can express themselves in these ways like no other place in the world. (except possibly in your vehicle in rush hour traffic).
Yeah, if you can do Concept Christian, by all means do so.
FocusMyView said
My former atheist book club met on Sunday mornings. (My work keeps me from regular attendance). We had someone attend one of the first couple of meetings that was in his church choir. He would not comply with the term atheist (we tried waterboarding, shaming) but being a mathematics professor he believed in Organization or that Cause was inherent in the universe around him. He left us and went back to his choir, where he probably felt safer.
I liked Godspell’s point about being. It is so true. I fear I could not sit through most sermons these days, but then even as a kid I thought most sermons were more holey than holy. But singing. Wow. Worshipping. Wow. These are the things that people cannot describe without adding other dimensional creatures like the Soul. These are the things I miss. Certainly church is a (mostly) safe space where one can express themselves in these ways like no other place in the world. (except possibly in your vehicle in rush hour traffic).
Yeah, if you can do Concept Christian, by all means do so.
Some people care about integrity.
Some people do not care about integrity.
You are saying you are in it for what you can get out of it, not for its truthfulness. Without truth, there is no holiness. So, you have children being baptized into Christianity not for its meaning but for what you can get out of it. You get married in a church not for the meaning it adds to a marriage but what you can get out of it. You get a church funeral not for what it means for the spirit but for the social functionalism. Meanwhile, people who take it seriously are not exposed to the fallacies and fantasies of their beliefs. Someone in your community was drowning in ignorance and you said nothing.
Steefen, I have always been fairly honest about my beliefs, if asked. I am not sure who might have been drowning in my community that my beliefs could have helped. Through high school and into college I was a fundamentalist. I still disagreed with many sermons and I was a pacifist in a congregation that had some military vets. I believed Jesus was a pacifist and could not reconcile militarism with Christianity. In college I started questioning some of my beliefs. But it was not until I became an internet warrior that I really spread my atheist wings! But at any time, if you asked, I would tell you much of my beliefs as they were at that time. I left church more out of working retail schedules than because of atheism. It was once I was out of church for a while that I became atheist.
If there was someone drowning in my community, I was completely unaware. If you are drowning, please private message me!
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