I am not sure how productive defending my integrity is here. I am not trying to deceive. I have been to church at the bidding of friends or my parents who knew that I was an atheist. I have certainly not tried to deceive anyone.
In my youth I was not an atheist. I was a evangelical fundamentalist. I was a missionary par excellence. I even did missionary dating in my efforts to save the world. I wanted to save the cheerleader to save the world.
Its quite my nature to be all in or not in at all. Still, I do miss singing and praise and the physiological effects of singing and praise. If the OP has found a way to do this, good for him.
I did know a few atheists, mostly dads, who sat in the congregation that I grew up in. Fine family men who actively supported youth activities and went to church retreats and sat on the boards to make decisions for the church. I have no evidence that they negatively impacted the community they were a part of. It appears they actually had a positive impact as well, through their hard word and support of activities.
FocusMyView said
I am not sure how productive defending my integrity is here. I am not trying to deceive. I have been to church at the bidding of friends or my parents who knew that I was an atheist. I have certainly not tried to deceive anyone.
In my youth I was not an atheist. I was a evangelical fundamentalist. I was a missionary par excellence. I even did missionary dating in my efforts to save the world. I wanted to save the cheerleader to save the world.
Its quite my nature to be all in or not in at all. Still, I do miss singing and praise and the physiological effects of singing and praise. If the OP has found a way to do this, good for him.
I did know a few atheists, mostly dads, who sat in the congregation that I grew up in. Fine family men who actively supported youth activities and went to church retreats and sat on the boards to make decisions for the church. I have no evidence that they negatively impacted the community they were a part of. It appears they actually had a positive impact as well, through their hard word and support of activities.
Hey FMV, interesting post. I suspect there are a lot of church attendees these days who are motivated by other than personal piety. When I visit my Dad back in Georgia, as I just did for the holidays, I go to church with him. It means absolutely nothing to me but it pleases him to have his family around him at church during the season. Call it a gesture of love and respect.
It’s funny how people who start at one extreme often end up at the other, whether in religion or politics. The NeoConservatives began as Trotskyists. Many of the most ardent Marxist materialists (all of whom were atheists) began as ardent Christians, often from upper class backgrounds. It seems like some people are just addicted to believing absolutely in something, but will just radically shift poles all of a sudden–to end up as bigoted and shut-minded as they were before. The point seems to be to avoid doubt. For some people, doubt is terrifying. For me, it’s a normal state of being. Doubts are nothing to fear–and there can be no faith without doubt.
i was never very ardently religious, in spite of my Catholic uprbringing (that I remain grateful for). I never said a complete Rosary in my life, let alone a Novena. My parents were liberals, and so were the priests and nuns I grew up around (at least about civil rights and fighting poverty). I have spent a lot of time criticizing extremes of religious belief, which can be enormously destructive
My critiques of atheism come from exactly the same place. It bothers me when people claim to know things they can’t possibly know. Agnosticism isn’t much better, because there’s no need to systematize what one doesn’t know. I don’t see the point. But having studied the history of atheism in the 20th, I can’t see it as any kind of improvement over extreme religion–it’s just the opposite pole. You’re freezing either way.
Stephen I think you misunderstand your religious acquaintances, because you don’t understand people who believe moderately, tolerantly, generously. You were not raised that way (I’m going by what you yourself said, and nobody asked you), and so on some level, you don’t believe those people are real Christians. You have this image in your mind of what a Christian is, and you can’t seem to grasp that most Christians never were that.
Fundamentalism is a perversion of Christianity. I’m not saying all evangelicals are bad Christians, let alone bad people–I know that isn’t true–but fundamentalism, in all its forms (including atheist fundamentalism, again with the pole shift), is a retreat from serious contemplation of the world we live in, and the creator we can’t help imagining. It’s also a way of saying you’re better than other people. And that is the greatest sin of all, as Jesus saw it.
Yes godspell you are so wise and perceptive. Except when you’re not.
When you speak from a position of ignorance you simply make yourself look foolish. At least to me – who knows himself and his life story and his acquaintances much better than you ever will. Why do you insist on performing this ridiculous exercise?
FocusMyView said
I am not sure how productive defending my integrity is here. I am not trying to deceive. I have been to church at the bidding of friends or my parents who knew that I was an atheist. I have certainly not tried to deceive anyone.
In my youth I was not an atheist. I was a evangelical fundamentalist. I was a missionary par excellence. I even did missionary dating in my efforts to save the world. I wanted to save the cheerleader to save the world.
Its quite my nature to be all in or not in at all. Still, I do miss singing and praise and the physiological effects of singing and praise. If the OP has found a way to do this, good for him.
I did know a few atheists, mostly dads, who sat in the congregation that I grew up in. Fine family men who actively supported youth activities and went to church retreats and sat on the boards to make decisions for the church. I have no evidence that they negatively impacted the community they were a part of. It appears they actually had a positive impact as well, through their hard word and support of activities.
There are many products and services that MUST have integrity.
Stephen said
FocusMyView said
I am not sure how productive defending my integrity is here. I am not trying to deceive. I have been to church at the bidding of friends or my parents who knew that I was an atheist. I have certainly not tried to deceive anyone.
In my youth I was not an atheist. I was a evangelical fundamentalist. I was a missionary par excellence. I even did missionary dating in my efforts to save the world. I wanted to save the cheerleader to save the world.
Its quite my nature to be all in or not in at all. Still, I do miss singing and praise and the physiological effects of singing and praise. If the OP has found a way to do this, good for him.
I did know a few atheists, mostly dads, who sat in the congregation that I grew up in. Fine family men who actively supported youth activities and went to church retreats and sat on the boards to make decisions for the church. I have no evidence that they negatively impacted the community they were a part of. It appears they actually had a positive impact as well, through their hard word and support of activities.Hey FMV, interesting post. I suspect there are a lot of church attendees these days who are motivated by other than personal piety. When I visit my Dad back in Georgia, as I just did for the holidays, I go to church with him. It means absolutely nothing to me but it pleases him to have his family around him at church during the season. Call it a gesture of love and respect.
The grand gesture (being phony) …
We all know the biblical Jesus spoke against religious overtures just to be seen. Oh, they love being seen by their Dad or whomever whose love and respect they want.
The grand gesture (being phony) …
We all know the biblical Jesus spoke against religious overtures just to be seen. Oh, they love being seen by their Dad or whomever whose love and respect they want.
Steefen now you’re just being nasty. And you don’t know my motivations any more than godspell does. You folks should get a life. One that doesn’t involve the Internet.
Stephen said
The grand gesture (being phony) …We all know the biblical Jesus spoke against religious overtures just to be seen. Oh, they love being seen by their Dad or whomever whose love and respect they want.
Steefen now you’re just being nasty. And you don’t know my motivations any more than godspell does. You folks should get a life. One that doesn’t involve the Internet.
People need integrity in their products and services.
The biblical Jesus was a purist, a zealot.
Cross a bridge without full integrity. Drive a car that has systems with integrity failures. Go into a building without structural integrity.
No Jew, Christian, or Muslim can find in sacred scripture: be a member or a guest of our religion to serve a social function (or to rub shoulders with believers for personal gain, for what you can get from the believer). Serve God. Serve Allah.
Steefen said
People need integrity in their products and services.
The biblical Jesus was a purist, a zealot.
Cross a bridge without full integrity. Drive a car that has systems with integrity failures. Go into a building without structural integrity.No Jew, Christian, or Muslim can find in sacred scripture: be a member or a guest of our religion to serve a social function (or to rub shoulders with believers for personal gain, for what you can get from the believer). Serve God. Serve Allah.
Non Serviam
All of this angst because I went to church during the holidays to please my Dad? He’s 86 and not in the best of health. I love him and want to make whatever time he has left as pleasing to him as possible. But you can’t understand that? Who’s the purist zealot now?
godspell expostulated
I honestly can’t wait for my membership here to expire. Few more months, and I’m outta this booby hatch…
Well don’t let us stop you. But why let your membership expire? Why not take a couple months off from posting like I did? It is very refreshing not feeling any obligation to comment. You can still read the blog. You can still ask Prof Ehrman questions although someone as obviously enlightened as you probably doesn’t have any questions. I haven’t checked all the threads but Robert appears to be on hiatus. Good for him. There’s more to life than posting on the internet.
“Took a few months off”? Is that how you remember it? 😀
I want to discuss Bart’s new book on the main blog. That’s due out on March 31st. Very interesting topic to me. I fully agree with Bart that Jesus wasn’t talking about the Afterlife. But you don’t want to understand him, just dismiss him. So what are you doing here? Reddit got to be too much? A delicate hothouse orchid, you are. I shall happily leave the asylum to you and your other self, Steefen. Not that anyone can figure out what the two of you are arguing about.
By saying Jesus was a religious fanatic? Jesus was into astrology? I think I’d have read about that somewhere……
The conversation clearly got sidetracked. Well, that happens. But the weird thing is, I’m finding myself starting to be on Steefen’s side (like I even know what that is) and that most of all tells me I better not hang around here after my membership expires. 🙁
Let me be as plain as I can be.
YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL NUTSO.
Theist, Atheist, whatever.
NUTSO.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert