Robert said
Helen Young said
Paul was not just arguing with believers in synagogues before his conversion. He was rounding them up and even advocating putting them to death.
Do we not have chapters and verses on this?
That’s if you believe the account in Acts. I don’t. If you look at Paul’s own first-hand account in his letters it seems like nothing more than robust arguments.
I’ll have to look it up. It seems to me that Paul, in his letters, states that he persecuted the believers and even condoned the death of one of the leading members. Perhaps I am confusing Acts with Paul’s letters, but that’s how I remember it. It will take some time for me to look it up and read a number of Paul’s letters. I don’t have the chapters and verses memorized. – Maybe I can do this today, Idk.
I’ve found these two verses from Paul’s letters where he refers to his persecution of the Church. The intent seems to be to imprison, not murder.
- ** you do not have permission to see this link **
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
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circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
It doesn’t exactly show the number of Christians who were being sought out and persecuted. But what can we conclude from the fact that these persecutions were occurring? This was before Paul wrote his first letter after he himself had become a Christian.
Another question might be how many people were persecuting Christians? Was Paul the only one?
Two more verses from the Pauline letters about Paul’s persecution of the Church.
Saul’s persecution was characterized by his intense hostility and aggression. He described himself as having been “a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man” (** you do not have permission to see this link **).
However, I understand that 1 Timothy is not considered an authentic letter of Paul.
This is also from Galatians:
** you do not have permission to see this link **And they praised God because of me.
Robert said
Paul does mention having been imprisoned, but that is not one of the Jewish punishments he received (2 Cor 11,24–25):Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones …
Imprisonment typically would have been done by Roman authorities.
Acts states that Saul/Paul was imprisoning Christians. Can we consider him one of the Roman authorities at this time, or working in connection with Roman authorities?
Acts 8:3
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But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
Robert said
I see no reason to make that assumption. He does speak about being more advanced in his Judean zeal for the Law and the traditions of the Pharisees, especially exceeding others in his persecution of the believers in Christ: (Phlpn 3,4b–6 Gal 1,13–14):If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. …
You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was exceedingly persecuting the church of God and was trying to destroy it. I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors.This doesn’t sound like Roman opposition to the fledgling Jewish believers in a crucified Messiah. It sounds like persecution based on his Jewish zeal.
I don’t know if we can ever be positive that Paul was instrumental in having Christians imprisoned. Acts does say he was, however.
Paul arguing with believers in Jesus in synagogues does not require a large community.
I flip back and forth on how large the Jesus community was by time of the Crucifixion. The gospels exaggerate but Prof Ehrman’s “twenty guys in a room” raises a lot of questions too. We know there were still Jewish Jesus sectarians in the second century. They came from somewhere.
Perhaps we should imagine a substantial Jesus community left behind in the Galilee when Jesus went to Jerusalem. Perhaps the success of that community was part of the motivation to go to Jerusalem? This would also explain how Paul could encounter Jesus sectarians in Damascus so soon after Jesus death.
Robert said
Given the much more direct evidence from Paul’s authentic letters and the notoriously unreliable accounts in Acts, I would say it’s virtually impossible for me to ever be certain that Paul imprisoned Christians.
But we both do agree, according to his authentic letters, that Paul did persecute them. Correct?
Robert said
She also makes the point that the local pagan communities and Roman authorities would have been opposed to the atheistic denial of all the polytheistic gods.
I forget who first made the analogy but someone suggested that pagans viewed Christians the same way modern Americans view groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who don’t celebrate Christmas and refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. You know, weirdos. Of course Rome did not enjoy Freedom of Religion and their judicial system rewarded a disturbingly long list of infractions with the Death Penalty.
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