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John 4:23-24 a theological nightmare
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Colin Milton

1142 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 5:58 am

A trinity verse? God the Spirit

The Greek to English begins as Spirit is God, but I think it should be Spirit the God

God the Spirit

Verse 23 is prophecy about Islam. The Greek says Allah is coming. Oh my

Does it mean that God the Spirit is Allah?

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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 8:37 am

Mounce says , the only way to determine subject or direct object of a verb is by the case endings. Doesn’t look to me that there is a verb here. If the is the correct translation, there must be a different kind of thought process going on here? “Spirit the God” doesn’t say much, does it?

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Porphyry

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November 18, 2024 - 9:29 am

In, “pneuma ho theos”.

‘esti’ is implied.

There is no object, there is a predicate nominative, so both subject and PN will have the same (nominative) case.

Usually the subject has an article, and the PN doesn’t (See, for example Jn 1:1)

The article often doesn’t need to be translated (I mean, no one goes around talking “the Homer” in English).

So the most obvious translation would be, “God is spirit”–perhaps you could make an argument for adding some article before “spirit” in English: “God is a spirit”, or “God is the spirit.” I’ll leave that to people with better Greek to weigh in on.

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Robert
7123 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 9:46 am
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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 10:16 am

Well I appreciate the subject anyway. 🙂

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Colin Milton

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November 18, 2024 - 2:08 pm

Why then does John 1 not translate the “O” like John 4 does? I see double standards going on.

I thought the “O” meant like “the great”. You put the “O” in front of the word that has the most authority in the sentence.

Spirit great God, the great God Spirit (the words have more substance when you throw your hands and arms up like you’re trying to pen a rodeo bull)

@Robert
Yes, I’m going by the seat of my pants at times, time and a half sometimes. But this specific idea is not new to me.

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Robert
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November 18, 2024 - 2:29 pm
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Colin Milton

1142 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 2:32 pm

God the Spirit and the worshipping of them (the Father and Spirit) must be worshipped in spirit and truth.

That’s how I would translate it, but it doesn’t necessarily change the meaning I knew beforehand.

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Robert
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November 18, 2024 - 2:34 pm
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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 2:35 pm

PN. Something like a stative case verb in Hebrew.

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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 2:37 pm

Oh. Excuse me. I didn’t see all these prior entries. Apologies please.

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Robert
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November 18, 2024 - 2:39 pm
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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 2:49 pm

Well,a stative verb as I understand it is one that gives not an action but a state of being or a condition say. As I understand a pedicate nominative tells something about the subject and is not the object of a verb.

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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 2:51 pm

For example ” he is standing” would be masculine stative verb. He stands.

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Robert
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November 18, 2024 - 2:54 pm
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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 3:02 pm

So guessing here. The os on theos would make theos nominative?

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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 3:04 pm

But pneuma not being a verb, but a noun, esti the copulative, would be implied.

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Robert
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November 18, 2024 - 3:04 pm
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Jill_L

608 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 3:06 pm

And pneuma is also nominative case with theos.

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Robert
7123 Posts
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November 18, 2024 - 3:08 pm
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