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The Ugliest Things about Atheism
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BJH1960

1587 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 12:44 pm

This might be ** you do not have permission to see this link ** to start.

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Helen Young

544 Posts
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42
October 25, 2026 - 12:58 pm

Robert said

Helen Young said 
Idk. I haven’t been posting here long enough to say. But I do believe I have seen them do it more than once.

Knowing the history can be extremely important in trying to understand an interaction.

I do believe I have seen people make statements that were very negative towards theism, not just this one person. I haven’t really been keeping track or keeping tabs or focusing on it too much

. Part of the reason could be that I get it, and I get why a person could be rather hostile to theism.

Respect has to go both ways. Both from and for, both theism and atheism.

Robert said

Helen Young said 

Are you asking whether I think it’s expected that people be perfect and never mess up?

No. Do you seriously believe that we expect people here to be perfect and never mess up? More specifically, do you believe that people are upset with David because he is not perfect. There’s a long history.
  

I don’t think you expect people to be perfect, but I do think that some people set the bar extremely high.

I’ve only been posting here for less than two months. I don’t think I could comment or have an opinion about anyone’s long history. Not unless I had the time to read all the posts and comments over the past year and more, which I don’t.

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Robert
7754 Posts
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43
October 25, 2026 - 1:21 pm
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Helen Young

544 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 1:29 pm

Robert said

Helen Young said

I don’t think you expect people to be perfect, but I do think that some people set the bar extremely high.

Thank you. It’s important to have high standards, even if this is the Internet.

  

Personally, I think that sometimes they are near impossibly high, or even ridiculously high.

But like I’ve said, I’ve only been posting on the Forum for less than two months. I could let you know if I feel the same way a couple of months from now.

Perhaps the Forum is just going through a phase where people are being very picky and particular, for some reason. Idk. & Idk why that might be.

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Helen Young

544 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 1:34 pm

Like I’ve said to you before, there have been times when I’ve even been afraid to post two words here on the Forum. Like, if I even phrase something a bit wrong one time, someone will come at me and come at me to no end.

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Robert
7754 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 1:44 pm
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Helen Young

544 Posts
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47
October 25, 2026 - 2:01 pm

Robert said

Helen Young said 
Personally, I think that sometimes they are near impossibly high, or even ridiculously high.

In what specific ways would you recommend that we lower our standards?

Allowing people to be human might help.

You/we have to have standards. I agree with that. The question is, where do you/we set the bar? 

I’d say felony crimes should be out, including criminal threats. Lying should be out. Psychological intimidation should be out. Scapegoating should be out. Ganging up and scapegoating should be out. Bullying should be out. Post bombing should be out. Question bombing should be out.

I’m sure there’s more. 

We’ve been over this to a good extent on another thread. Perhaps we should keep working on it till we get things right, and the Forum is a good place to be.

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Robert
7754 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 2:10 pm
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Helen Young

544 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 2:28 pm

Robert said

Helen Young said

Robert said
In what specific ways would you recommend that we lower our standards?

Allowing people to be human might help.

When and in what ways have we not allowed people to be human?

You/we have to have standards. I agree with that. The question is, where do you/we set the bar? 
I’d say felony crimes should be out, including criminal threats. Lying should be out. Psychological intimidation should be out. Scapegoating should be out. Ganging up and scapegoating should be out. Bullying should be out. Post bombing should be out. Question bombing should be out.
I’m sure there’s more. 
We’ve been over this to a good extent on another thread. Perhaps we should keep working on it till we get things right, and the Forum is a good place to be.

I agree, all those things should be out. Allowing people to be human does not mean we should tolerate felonies or any of the other things you mention. But I don’t see any concrete suggestions on which specific standards should be lowered?
  

Maybe just allowing people to say something stupid once in a while. We’ve all done it; I know I have. It’s like everything has to be so perfect that a person is afraid to say anything whatsoever.

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Robert
7754 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 2:32 pm
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Helen Young

544 Posts
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October 25, 2026 - 2:53 pm

Robert said

Helen Young said
Maybe just allowing people to say something stupid once in a while. We’ve all done it; I know I have. It’s like everything has to be so perfect that a person is afraid to say anything whatsoever.

Are you kidding, we let people saying stupid things all the time! Other than anti-Semitic support for the Holocaust, what stupid things have we not allowed people to say?
  

If you don’t know what I mean yourself from observing the posts and the post threads, I don’t know if I’ll be able to show it to you.

For one thing, it would take a lot of time to go over a good number of posts to show you where this has happened. 

If you really want to be sure for yourself that this hasn’t happened, go over the posts and threads and see if people haven’t been harped on for the smallest thing, for something they disagree with, or for one dumb comment, or one mistake, which we all make sometimes.

I don’t have the time and am not willing to put in the time to do this myself. If you haven’t seen it yourself in the course of posting and discussion, then go take an unbiased look at the posts and the post threads. Don’t pay attention to who is doing the posting; just make a point of looking for where this is or could be happening. I’m sure I’ve seen it. I’m rather surprised that you haven’t seen it as well.

(I’ve got to go log off for at least 10 minutes)

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DavidFord

1929 Posts
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52
October 25, 2026 - 3:02 pm

“what is the point you are trying to make with # 16?”
Bruce doesn’t “understand why someone would post something they don’t believe.”

“I don’t understand why someone would post something they don’t believe”

Richard Dawkins, _The Selfish Gene_ (2016)

** you do not have permission to see this link **
Page 433 — Faith cannot move mountains (though generations of children are solemnly told the contrary and believe it).
But it is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness.
It leads people to believe in whatever it is so strongly that in extreme cases they are prepared to kill and to die for it without the need for further justification.

Richard Dawkins, _The God Delusion: A Study of Religious Belief and Skepticism_ (2006)

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Page 28 — The dictionary supplied with Microsoft Word defines a delusion as
‘a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of psychiatric disorder’.
The first part captures religious faith perfectly.
As to whether it is a symptom of a psychiatric disorder, I am inclined to follow Robert M. Pirsig, author of _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_:
‘When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.’

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DavidFord

1929 Posts
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53
October 25, 2026 - 3:12 pm

“The overwhelming majority of nonbelievers here used to be believers, many raised in oppressive fundamentalist homes”
Perhaps being “raised in oppressive fundamentalist homes” contributed in a major way to some of those individuals becoming atheist/ agnostic.

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DavidFord

1929 Posts
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54
October 25, 2026 - 3:16 pm

“David… wants to be congratulated”
Some people fancy themselves to be mindreaders.

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Robert
7754 Posts
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55
October 25, 2026 - 3:20 pm
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Robert
7754 Posts
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56
October 25, 2026 - 3:21 pm
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BJH1960

1587 Posts
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57
October 25, 2026 - 3:51 pm

Some people fancy themselves to be mindreaders.

I read ** you do not have permission to see this link **as well.

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DavidFord

1929 Posts
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58
October 25, 2026 - 3:59 pm

** you do not have permission to see this link **
**Yes, in certain communist regimes, religious belief and practice were pathologized or treated as a form of mental disorder or “illness,” though this was never a formal, universal classification of “religion” itself as a psychiatric diagnosis in official medical manuals like the DSM equivalent.**

### Soviet Union
In the early Soviet period (1920s–1930s), there was a clear **medicalization of religious faith** (*pathologia religiosa*). Soviet physicians and psychiatrists, influenced by Marxist materialism, frequently portrayed religious belief as a pathological condition or health risk. Believers were sometimes described as suffering from chronic “religious feelings” or as victims of a kind of morbidity linked to religiosity. Anti-religious propaganda intertwined with medical discourse, framing religion as something to be “cured” through scientific atheism and psychiatric intervention.

Later, under the broader system of political psychiatry (especially from the 1960s–1980s), religious dissidents, believers who refused to abandon their faith, and members of unregistered religious groups were sometimes diagnosed with fabricated or elastic conditions such as “sluggish schizophrenia.” This diagnosis was used against political and religious nonconformists alike to justify involuntary hospitalization and “treatment.” The practice was widely documented as psychiatric abuse rather than genuine medical classification of religion as an illness.

### China
The Chinese Communist Party has a longer and ongoing history of pathologizing certain forms of religious practice:

– During the Mao era and Cultural Revolution, religious belief was often linked to “feudal superstition” or counter-revolutionary thought and could be treated as a mental or ideological disorder.
– In more recent decades, especially regarding Falun Gong and Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, Chinese authorities have explicitly framed religious practice in medical terms. Official documents and propaganda have described Islamic belief or “religious extremism” as an “ideological illness,” a “mental illness,” a “virus,” or a “poisonous medicine” that requires “treatment” in re-education camps (sometimes presented as hospitals). Practitioners have been forcibly detained, medicated, and subjected to psychological “correction.”

Chinese forensic psychiatry has also been used against religious nonconformists in ways similar to the Soviet model, diagnosing them with mental disorders for political reasons.

### Summary
Communist states did **not** generally list “religion” as a formal psychiatric diagnosis in the way schizophrenia or depression is classified. However, they systematically **pathologized** religious belief and practice—treating it as a form of mental or ideological sickness that required medical, psychiatric, or “re-educational” intervention. This was most explicit in early Soviet anti-religious medical discourse and in contemporary Chinese policies toward certain religious groups (especially Uyghur Muslims and Falun Gong). The goal was political control and the promotion of state atheism rather than genuine clinical psychiatry.

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DavidFord

1929 Posts
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59
October 25, 2026 - 4:02 pm

“Some people fancy themselves to be mindreaders”
“I read coffee grounds as well”
Good to know.

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Robert
7754 Posts
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60
October 25, 2026 - 4:28 pm
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