“I don’t understand why someone would post something they don’t believe”
Sam Harris, _The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason_ (2004)
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Page 72 — It takes a certain kind of person to believe what no one else believes.
To be ruled by ideas for which you have no evidence (and which therefore cannot be justified in conversation with other human beings) is generally a sign that something is seriously wrong with your mind.
Clearly, there is sanity in numbers.
And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window.
And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.
This is not surprising, since most religions have merely canonized a few products of ancient ignorance and derangement and passed them down to us as though they were primordial truths.
This leaves billions of us believing what no sane person could believe on his own.
In fact, it is difficult to imagine a set of beliefs more suggestive of mental illness than those that lie at the heart of many of our religious traditions.
Consider one of the cornerstones of the Catholic faith:
…
Jesus Christ — who, as it turns out, was born of a virgin, cheated death, and rose bodily into the heavens — can now be eaten in the form of a cracker.
A few Latin words spoken over your favorite Burgundy, and you can drink his blood as well.
Is there any doubt that a lone subscriber to these beliefs would be considered mad?
Rather, is there any doubt that he would be mad?
The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.
Because each new generation of children is taught that religious propositions need not be justified in the way that all others must, civilization is still besieged by the armies of the preposterous.
We are, even now, killing ourselves over ancient literature.
Who would have thought something so tragically absurd could be possible?
DavidFord, in your own words now while you are right here with us, would you please tell us what is the point you are trying to make with # 16???
I actually am interested in hearing in his own words what his point was.
A question for all and sundry: are we supposed to be having discussions with Grok and excerpts or with human beings?
I’ve held off a bit to see how this thread would play out but I think it’s time for me to make some general observations. Although this post was inspired by earlier posts it is not aimed at anyone in particular.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think of the regular posters at this forum I’m the only one who positively takes on the signifier “Atheist” to describe my position. I take on this descriptor consciously because I don’t believe in god. Am I certain beyond all doubt that a god does not exists? Of course not. But that’s because “certainty” is well nigh unintelligible about anything. We deal in probabilities and likelihoods. Not certainties. An obsolete category. (When the likelihood of a proposition becomes sufficiently high we colloquially call it a “fact.”)
Based on my experience and my thinking about that experience I have come to conclusion that the existence of god is overwhelmingly unlikely. When I say I don’t believe in god I mean that I don’t live my life as if such an entity exists. But I am always open to having my mind changed. I want my beliefs to mirror reality as close as possible. I am always willing to alter my attitudes and opinions when provided with updated or clarified information. Whatcha got?
I didn’t become an Atheist last month. I won’t bore you with the whole story but I was raised in a rural Georgia fundamentalist conservative religious environment. For the first two decades of my life I was committed to this system of belief chiefly because in such a hermetically sealed cultural environment I had nothing to compare it to. As often happens when I went away to school I was completely unprepared for the world outside. The gap between my expectations and my perceptions became so wide that I spent most of my twenties in a state of utter confusion. I spent much of my thirties searching and considering. I would say that I did not so much become an Atheist as I realized one day that I already was. I asked myself, in my heart of hearts, did I believe what I had been taught about Jesus? If I was honest I had to say, no. So I stopped calling myself a Christian. At some point I asked myself, in my heart of hearts, did I really believe in god? If I was honest I had to say, no. So I accepted that I was…well, there’s a name for that position isn’t there?
I write this not to claim any kind of special wisdom or elevated status but just to point out that this is not a matter of some brief passing notion for me. (I have often envied those for whom religion went in one ear and out the other.) I tried. I really did – and my journey was not free from incident. This is why when I hear comments like those from Mr Dodson I am not offended. I laugh. Such people should go ahead and have a ‘moron’ tag stamped on their foreheads. This is not serious analysis. Friends, I’ve been reamed by experts. Does Mr Dodson think his childish babblings rise to the level of even being interesting? His work merely serves to reassure some less astute component of the faith market that Atheism is a thing not to be worried over much.
This is a depressingly common strategy. Perhaps it is a natural defense mechanism. Atheists be crazy. Or we’re denying god because we hate him. Or we never were real Christians in the first place. Anything, anything but the possibility that we might have seriously considered the issues and changed our minds on the subject. No, no that can’t happen! Because if it could, if religious belief was something you could change your mind about…well, that doesn’t bear thinking on… Forget it – these folks are crazy!
One consequence of all this is that I can articulate my lack of belief. I realize this can be intimidating to those believers who have never had to articulate their belief chiefly because they’ve lived in a state of privilege where faith is assumed to be a default position. But that becomes more and more problematical because religious belief is slowly losing its privileges in our culture. More and more believers will have to compete in that proverbial marketplace of ideas. They will encounter, not acceptance, not persecution, but indifference. Religion has a ready-made template for acceptance. Christianity has a ready-made template for persecution. But indifference?
Very few people will ever overtly identify as Atheists. Most people will simply claim to “not be religious” or it will be a strictly personal thing. I think that is just fine. I’m not militant. I remain interested in the arguments -this forum seems to a place for that – but the very last thing I want is to “convert” someone. Actually understanding what I went through makes me hesitant to ever undermine someone’s else’s faith. I don’t want to hurt anyone. But I’m not going to apologize for being able to articulate my unbelief. And you cannot demand respect. You have to earn it.
Actually understanding what I went through makes me hesitant to ever undermine someone’s else’s faith. I don’t want to hurt anyone. But I’m not going to apologize for being able to articulate my unbelief. And you cannot demand respect. You have to earn it.
My impression is that most people who lose their faith are hesitant to undermine anyone else’s. A painful process it is losing one’s religion.
BJH1960 said
Actually understanding what I went through makes me hesitant to ever undermine someone’s else’s faith. I don’t want to hurt anyone. But I’m not going to apologize for being able to articulate my unbelief. And you cannot demand respect. You have to earn it.
My impression is that most people who lose their faith are hesitant to undermine anyone else’s. A painful process it is losing one’s religion.
One of the services we can provide is to assure others already going through the experience that they’re not alone. This is the value of the current “deconstruction” conversation on social media. I wish I had known someone else that had gone through it. All my guides were in books. Important but there’s nothing like flesh and blood, a shoulder to lean on and a hand to hold.
“I don’t understand why someone would post something they don’t believe”
Despite being a self-described mindreader, Bruce doesn’t understand why somebody would post something he/she doesn’t believe.
Bill Maher
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November 1, 2009 on Imus
“Neither me nor my girl believe in God or marriage, so there’s not gonna be a big church wedding…
I always say I don’t know.
Even Richard Dawkins a man whose name has become synonymous with atheism says he puts a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being absolute certain there is a god and 7 being absolutely certain there isn’t, and he says even he’s a 6.9.
Because no one knows for sure what’s out there.
He says yes there could be a god and there could be a spaghetti monster out there, but it doesn’t look like it.
To me it was always great fodder for comedy.
There isn’t a week that goes by that there isn’t something hysterically funny if it’s not tragic, having to do with religion.
My recent favorite example was at the Michael Jackson Memorial Stevie Wonder said ‘we needed Michael but God needed him more.’
And I thought really God needs people, God needs singers, God is up there saying ‘Jesus, nothing on, get that Michael Jackson up here.’
Imus then asks if Hitchens is a 7.
Bill Maher responds
“he may be, I think we’re just talking semantics at some point, we are all atheists (referring to Dawkins, Hitchens, and himself), which means we don’t believe in a deity, we don’t believe in a magic spaceman, and we think people that do, have a neurological disorder and they need help.”
And on religion in general he said
“When I hear from people that religion doesn’t hurt anything, I say really?
Well besides wars, the crusades, the inquisitions, 9-11, ethnic cleansing, the suppression of women, the suppression of homosexuals, fatwas, honor killings, suicide bombings, arranged marriages to minors, human sacrifice, burning witches, and systematic sex with children, I have a few little quibbles.
And I forgot blowing up girl schools in Afghanistan.”
…
“I hate religion. I think it’s a neurological disorder.”
Political comedian Bill Maher The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, aired April 21, 2004
Stephen said:
I wish I had known someone else that had gone through it.
For certain it’s easier it you have someone who went through it to help you along. I was lucky to have someone who was going through it at the same time, and we were able to help each other immensely. However, even with that support, it was really difficult.
February 25, 2014
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Dave Silverman commented on Facebook on the recent stories of faith-healing parents whose children die due to the fact that faith-healing, well, doesn’t heal. …
To quote Silverman directly:
“We must recognize religion as brainwashing.
We must recognize the (hyper) religious as mentally damaged.”
Silverman also says:
“They [those parents who follow faith-healing] deserve admission to a mental health institution for as long as it takes to rid them of the religious poison that was inflicted on them….”
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On April 9, 2018, the Board of Directors placed President David Silverman on leave pending a review of allegations raised regarding Mr. Silverman’s conduct.
The Board of Directors has reviewed internal documents and communications related to the initial complaint as well as evidence relating to the additional allegations brought to the Board’s attention.
Today’s announcement is based on these findings, and the Board intends to cooperate with any future investigations.
American Atheists is committed to creating and maintaining an environment that is safe and welcoming to all.
This Firebrand Atheist Was Just Fired After Allegations Of Financial Conflicts And Sexual Assault – April 13, 2018
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David Silverman raised the profile of American Atheists through billboard campaigns that mimicked the tactics of the evangelicals whose message he opposed.
Now he stands accused of financial conflicts and sexual misconduct.
BJH1960 said
Stephen said:
I wish I had known someone else that had gone through it.For certain it’s easier it you have someone who went through it to help you along. I was lucky to have someone who was going through it at the same time, and we were able to help each other immensely. However, even with that support, it was really difficult.
I was lucky. I had moved to a town with a really good library, and they had a copy of John Shelby Spong’s bestseller, ‘Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism’. The book could just as aptly be called ‘Rescuing Christianity from Fundamentalism’.
I took the book out and read it 7 times, and then broke down and bought a copy for myself.
The book more likely helped me with my bumpy reentry into believing, but it also helped me with the stuff I had been brought up with as well.
Following Bart’s work is an extension of following JS Spong’s work for me. Otherwise, I would have been going at it very alone and probably totally by myself. I can’t imagine how confusing that would have been.
Personally, my beliefs about things definitely influence how I live my life, at least they should, right? But perhaps remarkably my beliefs and lack of beliefs about God have almost no real affect on my life and behavior..
But whether or not I believe in God seems completely irrelevant to how I live my life.
I find this to be the case well.
“of the regular posters at this forum I’m the only one who positively takes on the signifier ‘Atheist’ to describe my position. I take on this descriptor consciously because I don’t believe in god. Am I certain beyond all doubt that a god does not exists? Of course not. But that’s because ‘certainty’ is well nigh unintelligible about anything. We deal in probabilities and likelihoods. Not certainties”
Bill Maher
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November 1, 2009 on Imus
“Neither me nor my girl believe in God or marriage, so there’s not gonna be a big church wedding…
I always say I don’t know.
Even Richard Dawkins a man whose name has become synonymous with atheism says he puts a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being absolute certain there is a god and 7 being absolutely certain there isn’t, and he says even he’s a 6.9.
Because no one knows for sure what’s out there.
=============
“when I hear comments like those from Mr Dodson I am not offended”
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“If anybody’s feelings were hurt by: [Dodson]”
“I don’t know if anyone’s feelings were hurt, I doubt it, mine certainly weren’t”
=============
“I can articulate my lack of belief… I’m not going to apologize for being able to articulate my unbelief”
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“the current state of reality that we observe is the result of unguided contingent processes generating spontaneous order”
“Free Will is an illusion”
“ultimate ‘Truth’ is unattainable”
What experiments and observations demonstrate each of those 3 allegations?
Is it _true_ that humans are “Living in a _never-ending_ state of uncertainty and doubt”?
Is it _certain_ that humans are “Living in a _never-ending_ state of uncertainty and doubt”?
Is it _undoubtedly_ the case that humans are “Living in a _never-ending_ state of uncertainty and doubt”?
Did you come to believe in your 3 allegations of your own “Free Will”?
Was your intelligence/ mind involved in your coming to believe in your 3 allegations?
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“did you actually think about what I wrote and try to understand it, maybe even empathize with it”
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What annoys me about atheists as an atheist. …
First on my list is a lack of empathy for those who deconstruct to atheism. …
I was able to talk a lot about my story and… some nuanced stuff.
But this comment section really came after me…
what bothered me about these specific negative comments is because they lacked so much empathy for what it’s like to go through a religious deconstruction.
…
So when I talk about my experience with religious deconstruction and how atheism was hard for me, how the death of God was extraordinarily painful for me, how nihilism was existentially devastating for me, even suicidal for me, how it led me towards an existential crisis, it should be OK that I have that experience and you have a different experience in being an atheist.
…
there should be room for people like me who had a rough ride getting there.
And I get super annoyed that sometimes secularism, especially the very atheist male-dominated side of these atheist spaces, just leave no room for you to have a different experience…
when I get push back from atheists who laugh at me that it took me so long to deconstruct psychological and social anchors and how painful that journey was for me, it just comes off as a very gross lack of empathy.
It’s like a Christian would have so much empathy for me if I was a sinner my whole life and found God and came to church, but there’s no empathy from the other side if I was religious for my early life and it took me time to deconstruct that because it’s embedded into my brain.
That just seems very unnecessary and very tiring for me personally because I’m not going to shame the part of myself that did the best with what she could with what she knew. …
So that just that just annoyed me this week.
And I think we all know an atheist who’s like that, who just really feels like people who go through religion and have a hard time leaving it are– …that’s just such a foreign experience that you just laugh at it.
And I just don’t think that’s fair.
And I think it’s very bad taste and icky and I don’t like it.
…
I am sometimes annoyed by the lack of empathy in our own camp, the lack of humility intellectually and otherwise, the lack of constructing things in its place.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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