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Three and three quarters of an hour with Two Scharlars: Luke Gorton and Ammon Hilman Discussing 200 B.C. to 300 C.E.
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Steefen
7786 Posts
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101
January 24, 2026 - 5:52 pm

Dr. Ehrman,

Finkelstein, the scholar, in The Quest for the Historical Israel, said 
Hebrew writing started around the 8th or 9th century BCE. Meaningful writing started around the 8th century BCE.

This is after the historical Labaya (who lived during Ancient Egypt’s Armana period); the biblical King Saul, King David, and King Solomon.

From what Finkelstein said, Psalms and Proverbs would not be meaningful Hebrew writing.

Question: In what language do you think Psalms and Proverbs were first written?

Question: Abraham came from Sumer but the language of Sumer did not influence the language of Ancient Hebrew.

Question: When Moses rewrote the destroyed Ten Commandments and the rewritten Ten Commandments were put into the Ark of the Covenant were they in the Ark that were to be placed into Solomon’s Temple?

If so, why would a scholar note consider those Ten Commandments meaningful Hebrew writing? I’m being told there is not historical connection between Moses and the first Temple because Abraham and Moses were theological developments after the ninth and tenth centuries BCE. Do you agree or have more to add?

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BJH1960

1208 Posts
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102
January 25, 2026 - 1:06 am

Steefen said:

No, your statement is not accurate.

Please explain to me why it is not accurate.  

Steefen said:

What of “It’s not that important to me” do you not understand?

I understand you’re using it because you’re unable to support a claim you’ve made.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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103
January 26, 2026 - 12:16 am

Comment 91

If David possessed Torah traditions, they would have existed primarily in oral form, spoken in early Hebrew. Any written material would have been fragmentary, composed in archaic Hebrew using a proto-Canaanite (paleo-Hebrew) script, long before the Pentateuch took its later literary shape.

That answer will stand up in:

  • Archaeology
  • Biblical studies
  • Textual criticism
  • ANE comparative history

And it fits perfectly with Finkelstein, Römer, Van Seters, and Cross.

  • Israel Finkelstein
    Archaeologist, Tel Aviv University
    Known for The Bible Unearthed and The Quest for the Historical Israel
  • Thomas Römer
    Biblical scholar, Collège de France
    Specialist in the formation of the Hebrew Bible, Deuteronomistic history, and Pentateuchal traditions
  • John Van Seters
    Historian and biblical scholar
    Major figure in the supplementary hypothesis of the Pentateuch; critical of early patriarchal historicity
  • Frank Moore Cross
    Harvard University biblical scholar and epigrapher
    Known for work on Northwest Semitic epigraphy and early Israelite religion (Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic)

= = = =

Steefen1
A historical King David is not connected to an historical Moses and not connected to a historical King Saul and the historical Jesus also does not connect to a historical King David and an historical Moses.

Steefen2
I disagree: Psalm 105 verse 37:
He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold, and from among their tribes no one faltered.

Steefen1
Ancient Rome did not enslave Judea and Israel for 400 years.
Ancient Egypt did not have Herod the Great either.
Without King David having a verifiable, historical connection to Moses, Jesus or a non-Jesus messiah, does not need a Davidic connection.

Steefen2
Theological memory/creation is the best that works. Once you bring up the historical King Saul, the efficacy of the historical King David cannot be linked to Jesus. Why even link to Jesus a man who wanted another man’s wife that he put her husband on the front line? ? ?

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BJH1960

1208 Posts
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104
January 26, 2026 - 12:57 am

Steefen said:

Steefen, STEEFEN LISTEN TO ME.

 

 

 

Now, you see the second edition of Historical Accuracy.

The first edition did not show there is little justification for linking Moses to David historically. 

 
Steefen1
A historical King David is not connected to an historical Moses and not connected to a historical King Saul and the historical Jesus also does not connect to a historical King David and an historical Moses.
Steefen2
I disagree: Psalm 105 verse 37:
He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold, and from among their tribes no one faltered.

Steefen1
Ancient Rome did not enslave Judea and Israel for 400 years.
Ancient Egypt did not have Herod the Great either.
Without King David having a verifiable, historical connection to Moses, Jesus or a non-Jesus messiah, does not need a Davidic connection.
Steefen2
Theological memory/creation is the best that works. Once you bring up the historical King Saul, the efficacy of the historical King David cannot be linked to Jesus. Why even link to Jesus a man who wanted another man’s wife that he put her husband on the front line? ? ?

 

Steefen, I really do wish you’d stop using the forum as a place to take notes for your book (Posts 89-91, 93-95, 97, and 103) and where you talk with yourself and AI. 

As you’re well aware, the first ** you do not have permission to see this link **states: “If you start a thread, be prepared to engage in dialogue with other members. Threads should be a conversation, not a monologue. Critical reflection upon one’s own ideas should be welcomed.”

And since the forum is a place where we are supposed to reflect critically upon our own ideas, please clarify what your position is with regard to Hebrew. Only recently you mentioned “Early/Archaic Hebrew” and “Proto-Canaanite/Paleo-Hebrew script” (Post 91) and asked about the language in your questions to Bart (Post 101), so it must be of some importance to you.

Do you believe there was an Ancient Hebrew language that descended from Proto-Canaanite or do you believe like Ammon Hillman that Hebrew was invented in Alexandria, Egypt in the 2nd or 3rd century B.C. (Post 12)?

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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105
January 26, 2026 - 1:11 pm

BJH
Do you believe there was an Ancient Hebrew language that descended from Proto-Canaanite or do you believe like Ammon Hillman that Hebrew was invented in Alexandria, Egypt in the 2nd or 3rd century B.C. (Post 12)?

Steefen
I have already given you a reply. Now you want to reword the question as Was Hebrew invented in Alexandria, Egypt?
According to my more than 15 years researching my book, I conclude that Hebrew was not invented in Alexandria.

Second, if you do not want to engage in my posts that does not mean they are a monologue, it means you do not have anything valuable to add to my posts.

Third, critical reflection upon one’s own ideas should be welcomed? That is in progress: I have not stopped listening to the review video by Gnostic Informant. I have not read the book by the independent writer whose father was a linguist. I might not get to it. Therefore, I might not get to a final answer on that book. What is important is the video. I watched the video and took notes. 

Fourth, people who write books can be members of the forum. We’ve had people who write articles who have been members of the forum as well. My book is like a personal essay of my books since the unexamined life is not worth living is a saying I can follow. What gives you the idea this motivation is a problem?

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BJH1960

1208 Posts
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106
January 27, 2026 - 1:03 am

Steefen said:

I have already given you a reply.

Really?  Was ** you do not have permission to see this link ** your reply, perhaps?

I conclude that Hebrew was not invented in Alexandria.

Thanks for the answer.

This is a pretty foundational claim of his, isn’t it? If so, wouldn’t you think denying it calls into question his interpretation of biblical texts?

people who write books can be members of the forum. 

Of course, they can.  Who said they couldn’t?

My point was that, at least according to my understanding, and I’m happy to be corrected, the forum is not a place for one to take notes for a book one is writing and engage with conversations with themselves and AI.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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107
January 27, 2026 - 10:46 pm

Picking up on the video, Review of Ammon vs. Luke Gorton then Debating Ammonites

The gospels contain Greek stagecraft.

Just as I anticipated: this video review is long-winded.

Pick up at 2:23.33 

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BJH1960

1208 Posts
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108
January 28, 2026 - 3:58 am

Steefen, I do hope you’re planning to answer my questions in Post 106.

This is the one that especially interests me:

This is a pretty foundational claim of his, isn’t it? If so, wouldn’t you think denying it calls into question his interpretation of biblical texts?

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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109
January 28, 2026 - 11:57 am

BJH:

I conclude that Hebrew was not invented in Alexandria.

Thanks for the answer.

This is a pretty foundational claim of his, isn’t it? If so, wouldn’t you think denying it calls into question his interpretation of biblical texts?

Steefen:
In the past I watched some of his videos. Those videos did not discuss Hebrew being invented in Alexandria, so I would disagree that Hebrew being invented in Alexandria is foundational for him. I already told you, I’ve studied my subject matter for more than 15 years. Archaeology found early Hebrew in Sinai.

Language grows over time. That probably happened in Alexandria. As the review video explains: Jews did go to Greek plays. When Greek swept over the Levant and Jews moved to Greek cities, Greek was used throughout the Roman Empire. That can be recognized.

The New Testament was written in Greek. I have no problem with Greek influences showing up in an interpretation of New Testament texts or in the TANAK.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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110
January 28, 2026 - 10:51 pm

OK, Luke Gorton receives an evaluation that is not good. This evaluator favors Ammon.
I’m sending this to Gnostic Informant.

I’ve watched 22 min.s of this 40-minute video.

YouTube Channel: L H
Video: When Reason Gives Way To Speculation

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Stephen
4606 Posts
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111
January 28, 2026 - 11:21 pm

Holy Crap! Some pseudoscience/occult/fringe videos are at least entertaing but ones like this make me feel like my brains are being sucked out of my nose like an Egyptian mummy.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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112
January 28, 2026 - 11:24 pm

You really cannot present an argument against points made.

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Stephen
4606 Posts
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113
January 29, 2026 - 12:47 am

Steefen the saddest thing is that you think some points are being made.

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BJH1960

1208 Posts
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114
January 29, 2026 - 12:52 am

 In the past I watched some of his videos. Those videos did not discuss Hebrew being invented in Alexandria, so I would disagree that Hebrew being invented in Alexandria is foundational for him. 

We disagree on this.  I see his claim that Hebrew is an invented language as absolutely foundational to his whole approach.

Is this something you’d like to discuss? If so, and I presented a solid case that it is indeed foundational, might you change your mind?

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BJH1960

1208 Posts
(Offline)
115
January 29, 2026 - 2:07 am

Interestingly enough, the guy who produced the video shared in Post 110 calls himself a linguist (3:49). 

Linguistics 101 is that no language is superior to another.

In looking at the list of videos on his ** you do not have permission to see this link ** I’m not sure why anyone would take anything he had to say very seriously.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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116
January 29, 2026 - 6:19 pm

Comment 114
I’m satisfied that we disagree on this like you said. No further discussion needed on my side.
I’ve already done a video on Ammon. That’s not the issue that is imperative for me.
I’m not changing my mind on that.

Comment 115
I heard the content creator mention linguist.

You say no language is superior to another.

= = =

No other comment to what you’ve said.

Thank you.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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117
January 29, 2026 - 9:34 pm

Point:

The Jews revolted against Babylon by forming alliances with Egypt [timestamp 30:43]–with Egypt!–and lost.
The Jews revolted against Rome and lost the first, second, and third war against Rome.

L H wins these points against Luke.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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118
January 29, 2026 - 9:46 pm

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Robert
7123 Posts
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119
January 29, 2026 - 9:57 pm
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Steefen
7786 Posts
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120
January 29, 2026 - 10:08 pm

Comment 118

** you do not have permission to see this link **

** you do not have permission to see this link **

This is great stuff. Thanks, LH!

Honestly, Ammon’s idea of it makes much more sense than

 
having Jesus asking why God has forsaken him.
 
I never understood that at all.
 
If Jesus is here fulfilling his mission from the father,
then
why in the world would Jesus be saying that God has forsaken him?
Makes no sense.
 
Steefen:
Jesus is obeying his Heavenly Father.
The loving father would not forsake an obedient son.
 
is what you’re saying. I see your point.
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