JAS said
Steefen said
A quality response would focus not on the messenger but the content of the message. Alternative, if you just have to fault the messenger, do that AND deal with the content of the message.
The message is a grave wrong.
If the messenger is as tainted as Giuliani, I have no idea of the value of the content. Even if the worst he might say turned out to be true, what exactly do you think anyone can do about it?
One can lead a thirsty horse to water, but you can’t make the horse drink.
He who is without sin, cast the first stone.
“It’s true, but what can anyone do about it?” Reply: It seems as if you have no suggestion/s.
#1 Decide if it is right or wrong to do this to the Bible.
#2 Add it to anything else that has been done right or wrong to the Bible.
#3 Decide if it is good for the U.S. to do that or any of the other countries in the world, especially where that country influences other countries.
#4 Determine if this is an act of human violation, abuse, or victimization.
#5 Do scholars have an opinion on this?
#6 What is the state of Chinese scholars in this field?
Steefen said
It seems as if you have no suggestion/s.
As soon as I recover from laughing at the idea that Giuliani has the first notion of what the Bible says, I vow to act on my outrage by boycotting any MAGA hats or T-shirts made in China. (I can see why the story of the prostitute would be his favorite Bible story.)
The video is just another political scam, and an excuse for Rudy to make money hawking gold and dubious insurance to cover his growing legal expenses.
JAS said
Stephen said
I don’t think it is a coincidence that the countries with the highest standards of living that possess the strongest social safety nets have the lowest levels of open piety.
I think it is a matter of selective interpretation. We do not really have sufficient data, with consistency over time, to make such claims. After all, the Soviet Union was officially an atheistic state, as is China (although China at least tolerates several religions). I would hardly consider those great societies setting ideals to which we should strive. The idea that eliminating religion somehow produces a wonderful and decent society seems to me at least as much a fantasy as the idea that everyone adopting any particular brand of evangelistic Christianity would do so.
The countries with the highest standards of living that possess the strongest social safety nets, Western Europe, are the most secular. They did not need to enforce secularity. It seems to have been a natural consequence of the society meeting people’s earthly needs. One thing that cannot be said about the Soviet Union and China.
Robert said
Instead you merely want to denigrate our Attorney-in-Chief, to cast aspersions upon his credibility and even that of Steefen, our esteemed Astrologer-in-Chief. Steefen has worked very hard to improve upon the credibility of his usual sources. The very least you could do would be to acknowledge the great strides he has made to seek out more credible sources and to embrace such well known national leaders in our collective battle against extreme evil and absolute atrocity.
As Supreme High Moderator of this forum, I’ve had just about enough of your cynical and derisive posts here! From now on I expect you to start bowing down to our Argumentation Specialist, author of Historical Accuracy, and Most Revered Teacher of Righteousness.
We Sagittarians are known for not being diplomatic. I think I broke my snark meter watching the video. (And I regret that the fact that I did watch it probably put a couple of bucks in Rudy’s pockets, even though I skipped forward during the ads.) With a little less than half of the country falling for this kind of thing, I fear even more for the future of our country. (You will just have to imagine the bowing.) See you in the re-indoctrination camps.
Stephen said
The countries with the highest standards of living that possess the strongest social safety nets, Western Europe, are the most secular. They did not need to enforce secularity. It seems to have been a natural consequence of the society meeting people’s earthly needs. One thing that cannot be said about the Soviet Union and China.
Even if you are much, much younger than I am, I doubt that either of us will live long enough to see such an experiment played out in the US.
JAS said
Steefen said
It seems as if you have no suggestion/s.
As soon as I recover from laughing at the idea that Giuliani has the first notion of what the Bible says, I vow to act on my outrage by boycotting any MAGA hats or T-shirts made in China. (I can see why the story of the prostitute would be his favorite Bible story.)
The video is just another political scam, and an excuse for Rudy to make money hawking gold and dubious insurance to cover his growing legal expenses.
Okay, you cannot distinguish message (what’s important) from messenger (what’s not important).
Robert said
JAS said
If the messenger is as tainted as Giuliani, I have no idea of the value of the content. Even if the worst he might say turned out to be true, what exactly do you think anyone can do about it?
Did you not even watch the video, JAS (real names please!)? You can join the Freedom Network of Rudolf Giuliani, our Attorney-in-Chief, to fight against the terrible Democrat party and their massive movement to extinguish God, against ** you do not have permission to see this link **, who even before her Black Lives Matter Party is in power has already become a multi-millionaire. Don’t just sit there like lemmings led to the slaughter, speak out against these atrocities.
Instead you merely want to denigrate our Attorney-in-Chief, to cast aspersions upon his credibility and even that of Steefen, our esteemed Astrologer-in-Chief. Steefen has worked very hard to improve upon the credibility of his usual sources. The very least you could do would be to acknowledge the great strides he has made to seek out more credible sources and to embrace such well known national leaders in our collective battle against extreme evil and absolute atrocity.
As Supreme High Moderator of this forum, I’ve had just about enough of your cynical and derisive posts here! From now on I expect you to start bowing down to our Argumentation Specialist, author of Historical Accuracy, and Most Revered Teacher of Righteousness.
Keystone Kops / Keystone Cops
A crime against the Bible has been committed.
New Source:
Family Research Council
** you do not have permission to see this link **
The Chinese Communist Party’s version takes a different turn. In this telling, the crowd leaves, but Jesus tells the woman, “I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.” Then Jesus proceeds to stone the woman.
New Source:
Wall Street Journal
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy: Which Sad Calamity Has Caused God to Turn His Face Away?
Bringing solemnity to this issue that it deserves …
The Family Research Council article, to me, is more disturbing than what was communicated in the video which only says Jesus killed the woman without telling us Jesus confessed to being a sinner.
Do I think the Biblical Jesus was a false prophet who misled people?
Answer: The Tribulation of AD70 when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and the Temple was destroyed was not followed by a global Kingdom of Righteousness/Heaven/God and it was not followed by what Paul said (the dead rising in Christ being caught up in the air with the living). Hence, false prophet.
Is being a false prophet a sin?
Answer: Yes.
Argumentation Specialist
A display of disrespect is what this re-writing of the Bible is. It is a defacing of what we have held to be sacred. It is a defacing of the Biblical Jesus.
Can I get a witness?
East vs. West. It is an attack on the West to do this.
It is an attack on the West to do this, Keystone Cops.
Bart Ehrman and I are Christians. Bart is an agnostic/atheist Christian (his own words). I think Christianity needs improving by way of moving towards an historically accurate interpretation of the Bible.
Christians care about other Christians.
There is Christian victimization in this re-writing of the New Testament.
To the extent that the woman caught in adultery
= = = = Time out.
An old sense of the verb hark (which mainly means to listen) was used in hunting with hounds, where the phrase hark back denoted the act of returning along the course taken to recover a lost scent.** you do not have permission to see this link ** This is the origin of the modern sense of hark back, which means to recall, to return, or to retrace one’s steps.
Hearken and harken also mean to listen. In fact, the three words are essentially the same, coming from the same Old English root and having an archaic tone in modern usage. But unlike hark, hearken and harken weren’t used in that hunting sense, so hearken back and harken back don’t work the same way.
Still, hearken back and harken back appear often. In edited news publications, though, hark back is about three times as common as harken back and about five times as common as hearken back.
= = =
To the extent that the woman caught in adultery returns us to the biography of Julius Caesar, China is rewriting the history, the biography of one of the greatest men in Western Civilization.
The biographical account goes something like this. There was a women’s only celebration at Caesar’s house. A man dressed up as a woman to enter his house. This gave the appearance that Caesar’s wife was having an adulterous affair with this man. Many people wanted the man and the woman declared guilty and suffer the consequences. Because the man was coming up in political importance, Julius Caesar did not press charges, besides those who wanted charges pressed had their own infidelities. Although his wife was not judged in a court of law, Julius Caesar did divorce her because his own political career would be tarnished by the appearance of her infidelity.
Steefen said
A crime against the Bible has been committed.
Then let the Bible’s courts hear the case, and the Bible’s police enforce the decision. People have been changing the Bible for nearly 2,000 years. In this case, it may be an example of a change that we don’t like, but if God isn’t going to punish the Chinese for the act, I don’t see how we can.
We have plenty of people in this country who are daily abusing the Bible for their own purposes (Giuliani being just one example). If we cannot make them behave decently, I don’t see what we can do about the Chinese. I think the only thing one can do for any bad translation is to point out that it is not supported by the sources available, and then move on with your life.
Robert
The WSJ opinion piece only mentions a planned Chinese translation; it does not support Giuliani’s account of the new version of story about the woman caught in adultery. I do appreciate your recent attempts to improve your sources, but it might also help if you read them.
Steefen
There is no new version of the story about the woman caught in adultery? Robert, again, you are in error.
We would appreciate if you consult both sources provided supplementing the Rudy video.
It would help if you read both of them. Let me stand over your shoulder and run my finger across
what you are pretending did not happen.
One way China seeks to Sinicize Christianity is by re-writing the Bible. A complete communist translation has yet to be revealed. The news of one chapter’s government-approved revision left Christians outraged last month.
A textbook for a class on professional ethics and law at the government-run University of Electronic Science and Technology Press quotes the Bible’s book of John, chapter eight. In this passage, an adulterous woman is brought to Jesus, and her accusers ask if she should be killed by stoning for her sins.
In every authentically translated version of scripture, Jesus responds, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” These words disperse the angry crowd, and Jesus tells the woman, “Go, and from now on sin no more” (ESV).
The Chinese Communist Party’s version takes a different turn. In this telling, the crowd leaves, but Jesus ** you do not have permission to see this link ** the woman, “I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.” Then Jesus proceeds to stone the woman.
The Party’s distortion of scripture whereby the Savior kills a woman is offensive and defamatory. That the CCP made this change is revealing. The Party’s story teaches that forgiveness, an important Christian value is rejected and the law must be obeyed without question. In China, the law is whatever the CCP says.
Third New Source
The Christian Broadcasting Network (and the Union of Catholic Asian News)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
One believer said changing the biblical text was offensive to the Church.
“I want everyone to know that the Chinese Communist Party has always tried to distort the history of the Church, to slander our Church, and to make people hate our Church,” his post said.
A Catholic priest, who chose to remain anonymous said amending the Bible to fit a different scenario “is against morality and the law, so how can we still teach professional ethics with this book?”
Case closed, so far as we are concerned.
It is quite unfortunate that I seem to be the only one concerned with the cachet of the Bart Ehrman forums while others yawn, could care less about abuses of the Bible, abuses which would have a detrimental effect on scholarship, or repeatedly post erroneous replies.
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