
TTHorne56 said
From what I understand, most scholars believe that Paul had some sort of vision that led him to his ministry. What we cannot know is whether whatever Paul experienced is true in an ontological sense, i.e. a vision of the Truth.
Exactly, and this is the problem with any personal experience being related to others, especially experiences that go beyond common and shared events. The more difficult they are to verify by independent means, the more difficult they are to accept. The mere conviction with which they may be related cannot be considered evidence, and yet the fact that they cannot be proven does not inherently make them untrue. For incidental matters, such concerns may be easily ignored, but for matters that have real meaning, that problem can be very troublesome indeed.
Based on Paul’s own experience as recorded in his letters, he had a pretty robust mystical life. What I’ve wondered is whether he just had the one transforming vision of Jesus or if he had multiple visions of Jesus over a stretch of time. Did Jesus appear to him regularly and give him instructions?

Stephen said
Based on Paul’s own experience as recorded in his letters, he had a pretty robust mystical life. What I’ve wondered is whether he just had the one transforming vision of Jesus or if he had multiple visions of Jesus over a stretch of time. Did Jesus appear to him regularly and give him instructions?
Yes, he seems to suggest in multiple places (e.g. I Cor 11:23) that he has received knowledge about certain events/ideas/theological principles directly “from the Lord,” which seems to mean revelation directly from Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit somehow. In other places, particularly I Cor. 7:12, he makes a point of differentiating between his own opinion and something received from the Lord. Whether that implies ongoing revelations following his conversion, or one, single massive revelation of the Gospel and everything else during that one vision on the road to Damascus is a good question!

JAS said
TTHorne56 said
From what I understand, most scholars believe that Paul had some sort of vision that led him to his ministry. What we cannot know is whether whatever Paul experienced is true in an ontological sense, i.e. a vision of the Truth.
Exactly, and this is the problem with any personal experience being related to others, especially experiences that go beyond common and shared events. The more difficult they are to verify by independent means, the more difficult they are to accept. The mere conviction with which they may be related cannot be considered evidence, and yet the fact that they cannot be proven does not inherently make them untrue. For incidental matters, such concerns may be easily ignored, but for matters that have real meaning, that problem can be very troublesome indeed.
You unexpectedly find that narrating your personal revelation can be difficult and counterproductive due to the skepticism of the audience. I agree 100%, I wrote about it once myself. Therefore, it is much easier and more beneficial to talk about someone else’s revelation. The invented tradition of the great apostle of the past will always be more acceptable than announcing that you have spoken to Christ at night. Your dedication to spreading this third person apostolic revelation will be appreciated.

Jtwarren said
Yea all of it is making me question what if he really did have a vision
The revelation or vision of GOD is the most elegant and traditional entry into the religious movement with its own ideas. Paul is not very revolutionary here with his revelation of the risen Christ. Ancient rulers always experienced God’s vision. Such a Ptolemy and Serapis. Dionysus visited many kings, but he had more time: Ptolemy XII, Caligula, Hadrian …
The vision gave Paul an educational inspiration in ethics and theology, and he set off with his own concepts under the license of Christ.
Revelation never gets old

Jarek said
You unexpectedly find that narrating your personal revelation can be difficult and counterproductive due to the skepticism of the audience. I agree 100%, I wrote about it once myself. Therefore, it is much easier and more beneficial to talk about someone else’s revelation. The invented tradition of the great apostle of the past will always be more acceptable than announcing that you have spoken to Christ at night. Your dedication to spreading this third person apostolic revelation will be appreciated.
I don’t know that talking about someone else’s personal visions is any more beneficial, although it might, in some sense, be easier. Paul’s claims of visions are no more plausible merely by being by someone else, or being nearly 2,000 years old. What grants their claims some special credibility, if one chooses to accept any such accounts, is that they were recorded at a time when Christianity was not safely ensconced, when there were few benefits in making them, and, indeed, more than a little danger. (It is perhaps a bit trickier for the gospel accounts since we don’t really know who is making them, only to whom they are attributed.) Paul’s dramatic conversion story is also powerful to the extent that one believes it. And, of course, there is a considerable amount of skepticism as well. It is really the quality of Paul’s letters that grants him some special status. Something apparently happened to him, we just cannot be sure what it was.

Stephen said
Jarek it doesn’t surprise me that you would prefer hearsay to first person accounts. Have you ever actually read Paul’s letters? That is not a rhetorical question. Or snark. I’ve known a few honest fanatics in my day and Paul strikes me as one of those.
I read the Polish translation of the letters. What struck me was the maturity of the author’s views that was visible in all the letters. In 20 years, Paul has hardly developed. He knows too much from the beginning. He does not develop as a writer or a theologian. And this is impossible, if only because of the changing environment and the growing baggage of his own experiences. How has he managed not to change his mind on anything for 20 years? What is taken to be the arguments for the authenticity of the letters allegedly written for 20 years – their specific language, specific theology and ethics are the most suspect. The letters do not testify to the 20-year development of their author. The letters are a summary of many years of experience written years later in a short time by experienced man.

JAS said
Jarek said
You unexpectedly find that narrating your personal revelation can be difficult and counterproductive due to the skepticism of the audience. I agree 100%, I wrote about it once myself. Therefore, it is much easier and more beneficial to talk about someone else’s revelation. The invented tradition of the great apostle of the past will always be more acceptable than announcing that you have spoken to Christ at night. Your dedication to spreading this third person apostolic revelation will be appreciated.
I don’t know that talking about someone else’s personal visions is any more beneficial, although it might, in some sense, be easier. Paul’s claims of visions are no more plausible merely by being by someone else, or being nearly 2,000 years old. What grants their claims some special credibility, if one chooses to accept any such accounts, is that they were recorded at a time when Christianity was not safely ensconced, when there were few benefits in making them, and, indeed, more than a little danger. (It is perhaps a bit trickier for the gospel accounts since we don’t really know who is making them, only to whom they are attributed.) Paul’s dramatic conversion story is also powerful to the extent that one believes it. And, of course, there is a considerable amount of skepticism as well. It is really the quality of Paul’s letters that grants him some special status. Something apparently happened to him, we just cannot be sure what it was.
Powerful story presented by devoted missionary is becoming more powerful. What was Paul’s goal? He jumped like a butterfly from flower to flower and lamented in his letters that some of his flowers were fading. But the next ones, using his letters, were able to take care of the flowers and multiply them effectively.

Robert said
Jarek said
I read the Polish translation of the letters. What struck me was the maturity of the author’s views that was visible in all the letters. In 20 years, Paul has hardly developed. He knows too much from the beginning. He does not develop as a writer or a theologian. And this is impossible, if only because of the changing environment and the growing baggage of his own experiences. How has he managed not to change his mind on anything for 20 years? …
You don’t see development between 1 Thessalonians and later letters? Really? In 1 Thessalonians he has to deal with the issue of some community members the first time unexpectedly dying before the Parousia, whereas in 1 Corinthians there’s already a practice of some people being baptized for the dead, and then in 2nd Corinthians, there’s a discussion of the dead being clothed with their incorruptible bodies in heaven, and in Philippians Paul himself is considering the prospect of even his own death coming before the Parousia and his going to be with the Lord. You don’t see development between Paul blaming the Judean authorities for the death of Jesus in 1 Thessalonians, to excusing it as ignorance in 1 Corinthians, and divinig God’s purpose of a hardening of part of Israel for the sake of gentile incorporation before all Israel is saved? You do not see growth in theological and exegetical sophistication from 1 Thessalonians to 1 and 2 Corinthians, then Galatians, and finally fully flowered in Romans? There’s so much development in Paul’s thought here that I champion Gerd Lüdemann’s dating 1 Thessalonians as early as 41 CE.
Ouch! That’s gonna leave a mark.
Take some time to walk that off, Jarek.

TTHorne56 said
From what I understand, most scholars believe that Paul had some sort of vision that led him to his ministry. What we cannot know is whether whatever Paul experienced is true in an ontological sense, i.e. a vision of the Truth.
I’m not in agreement with scholars on that subject because there have been a litany of con men throughout history who have had “some sort of vision” they used to start a religion. I do understand that taking that it’s safe for scholars to take the view that Paul had an actual vision though.

Jtwarren said
Yea all of it is making me question what if he really did have a vision
I’m doubtful he did. He claims he was caught up to heaven and heard things he can’t repeat, but has no problem repeating the exact words Jesus said to him about his “thorn in the flesh” or about the Eucharist (1 Corinthians 11). Also, he’s being disingenuous because there is obviously something to be gained about boasting about speaking to Jesus and being taken up to heaven.
2 Cor. 12: “It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. 3 And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— 4 was caught up into paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat. 5 On behalf of such a one I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. 6 But if I wish to boast, I will not be a fool, for I will be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think better of me than what is seen in me or heard from me, 7 even considering the exceptional character of the revelations. Therefore, to keep[** you do not have permission to see this link **] is made perfect in weakness.””

Hi cstu, I read your other comment from another post. Do you think Paul really met up with the disciples? I’m just struggling with Paul. I don’t know what to believe at all. I don’t really see any articles from Dr. Ehrman he just says he probably had a vision but it doesn’t mean Christianity is true. I really just don’t know.
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