cstu said
Jtwarren said
Yea all of it is making me question what if he really did have a vision
I’m doubtful he did. He claims he was caught up to heaven and heard things he can’t repeat, but has no problem repeating the exact words Jesus said to him about his “thorn in the flesh” or about the Eucharist (1 Corinthians 11). Also, he’s being disingenuous because there is obviously something to be gained about boasting about speaking to Jesus and being taken up to heaven.
2 Cor. 12: “It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. 3 And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows— 4 was caught up into paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat. 5 On behalf of such a one I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. 6 But if I wish to boast, I will not be a fool, for I will be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think better of me than what is seen in me or heard from me, 7 even considering the exceptional character of the revelations. Therefore, to keep[** you do not have permission to see this link **] is made perfect in weakness.””
I’ve never really understood why people think Paul is lying. He strikes me as a perfectly honest religious fanatic. My impression is that Paul has precisely the personality you would expect of someone who is convinced they’ve been chosen by God. The humble brag is an occupational hazard of the truly blessed.
As far as visions go, Paul wouldn’t be the first mystic who spent half his time in another world. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out he was having regular conversations with Jesus. He suggests as much in 2 Cor 12:8. There is a clear difference between a vision of the Great Beyond and a message intended for distribution to the Saints.
Stephen said
I’ve never really understood why people think Paul is lying. He strikes me as a perfectly honest religious fanatic. My impression is that Paul has precisely the personality you would expect of someone who is convinced they’ve been chosen by God. The humble brag is an occupational hazard of the truly blessed.As far as visions go, Paul wouldn’t be the first mystic who spent half his time in another world. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out he was having regular conversations with Jesus. He suggests as much in 2 Cor 12:8. There is a clear difference between a vision of the Great Beyond and a message intended for distribution to the Saints.
It’s not so much that Paul pleaded with God. Many people, from his time until today, plead with God in prayer. The fun part is that God answered him: but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power* is made perfect in weakness.” 2 Cor 12:9.
* The NSRV notes that some sources read “my power.” Now that’s an interesting theological assertion.
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