jaihare said
jakejones said
in the writings of paul, is there any place where he says that the messiah predicted his own death?
How frequently do you think Paul quotes anything at all that Jesus said or is claimed to have said?
Steefen
That’s my position. I even asked Bart, how in the world could Paul get the Last Supper words verbatim but nothing else, not the Sermon on the Mount/Plain, not a full parable, not the Lord’s Prayer.
Bart answered: liturgical repetition
I countered: I highly doubt Holy Communion was going on BEFORE the destruction of the Temple. You think Paul was run out of town into the lap of the emperor for far less. Second, I do not think the apostles who hung out at the Temple after the resurrection were talking up that liturgy either. What? They have their Holy Communion AND are carrying out sacrifices at the Temple?
People want to bring up interpolation sometimes, well I ask, what is to stop interpolation with 1 Corinthians 11th chapter verses 23-29.
Steefen said
That’s my position. I even asked Bart, how in the world could Paul get the Last Supper words verbatim but nothing else, not the Sermon on the Mount/Plain, not a full parable, not the Lord’s Prayer.
I agree with this. If the λόγια were supposedly the earliest collections of Jesus statements, how does Paul seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that Jesus ever had a teaching ministry or left any type of wisdom statements or parables behind? Contrary to popular opinion, he never mentions “disciples” (μαθηταί), people who learned from him. He only seems to know of “apostles” (ἀπόστολοι), people who have been sent out with a message. I think this is significant.
It only requires a modicum of imagination to consider how easily a Passover Seder might mutate into a “Last Supper”, complete with dire predictions, when filtered through hindsight. Or maybe Paul is reinterpreting the Seder based on personal revelation from Jesus. But I betcha all pre-Easter predictions of Jesus’ demise and resurrection are post-Easter retrofitting.
The early disciples must have begun almost immediately to try to understand what happened. They would have seized on every clue, either saying or event, that seemed to augur the Easter experience. What’s sobering to consider is the pre-Easter material, sayings and stories, that might have been let slip away because they didn’t reinforce the idea that all this was meant to be.
“They have their Holy Communion AND are carrying out sacrifices at the Temple?”
if paul is understanding communion in a human sacrificial sense (human has to be sacrificed for sins), then your question is interesting, what are they doing sacrificing animals when human sacrifice replaced animal sacrifice?
jakejones said
“They have their Holy Communion AND are carrying out sacrifices at the Temple?”if paul is understanding communion in a human sacrificial sense (human has to be sacrificed for sins), then your question is interesting, what are they doing sacrificing animals when human sacrifice replaced animal sacrifice?
The priests still need their BBQ.
Robert said
I would heavily underline supposedly here. It is indeed very popular to think of Q as very early, but critical scholars do not necessarily agree. The first person to write a full-length commentary on Q dated it to 75 CE. He still thinks it’s earlier than Mark’s gospel, but other scholars consider Q to be later than Mark.
It is, of course, quite tricky to date something that we do not actually have (except in such an indirect form). Layers of speculation are harder and harder to prove or disprove.
Robert said
Absolutely. Q is merely an hypothesis and the attempts to detect layers of redaction are therefore even more controversial. And there is no definitive reason to date Q prior to the gospel of Mark. It is mostly wishful thinking. A few good scholars have made arguments for some sayings of Jesus to have been known by Paul, but it is only a few sayings.
If Mark had known the Q material it’s real hard to imagine he couldn’t have found any use for some of it.
I’ve always been fascinated by the idea that the “love and mercy” stuff might have been secondary to the tradition. The historical Jesus would have been a firebrand apocalyptic prophet a la John the B. There are problems with that view so I only take it seriously one day a week but it is interesting to consider.
jaihare said
jakejones said
in the writings of paul, is there any place where he says that the messiah predicted his own death?
How frequently do you think Paul quotes anything at all that Jesus said or is claimed to have said?
What is Paul saying in 2 Corinthians 5: 16-17 ?
Steefen said
jaihare said
jakejones said
in the writings of paul, is there any place where he says that the messiah predicted his own death?
How frequently do you think Paul quotes anything at all that Jesus said or is claimed to have said?
Steefen
That’s my position. I even asked Bart, how in the world could Paul get the Last Supper words verbatim but nothing else, not the Sermon on the Mount/Plain, not a full parable, not the Lord’s Prayer.
Bart answered: liturgical repetition
I countered: I highly doubt Holy Communion was going on BEFORE the destruction of the Temple. You think Paul was run out of town into the lap of the emperor for far less. Second, I do not think the apostles who hung out at the Temple after the resurrection were talking up that liturgy either. What? They have their Holy Communion AND are carrying out sacrifices at the Temple?
People want to bring up interpolation sometimes, well I ask, what is to stop interpolation with 1 Corinthians 11th chapter verses 23-29.
Dr. James Tabor believes that Paul invented the Eucharist and his description of it was copied by the author of Mark.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Steefen
Well, what ctsu provided should be interesting if James Tabor can pull it off.
James Tabor
Eat My Body, Drink My Blood–Did Jesus Ever Really Say This?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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