James Tabor quoting Paul
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is [broken] for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me” (1 Corinthians 11:23-25).
James Tabor
Though it might sound strange to us that anyone would claim to have received by revelation a narrative of Jesus’ last meal with his disciples, years after the event.
Steefen
Wikipedia entry for Clairvoyance:
Pertaining to the ability of clear-sightedness, clairvoyance refers to the ** you do not have permission to see this link **, the perception of contemporary events happening outside of the range of normal perception.
In Paul’s vision, there was retrocognition, James? You say, “We have every reason to take [Paul] at his word.”
James Tabor
Paul is our only source reporting that Jesus spoke of the bread as his body and the wine as his blood—since Mark, Matthew, and Luke derive their accounts from him. John reports an intimate meal Jesus had with his disciples but never says anything about words such as these spoken over bread and wine. It is difficult to imagine John, who was aware of the other gospels, leaving such an important tradition out of his gospel except by intention. His silence is essentially his “no” vote on the historical reliability of our single source—Paul.
But there is another reason for doubting the historical validity of Paul’s account. Other than Paul, a wholly alternative record of the words spoken at a Christian Eucharist celebration over the bread and the wine come from the early Christian text we call the Didache (pronounced did-a-káy) that are completely different from the words of Jesus that Paul reports.
You shall give thanks as follows: First, with respect to the cup: “We give you thanks, our Father, for the holy vine of David, your child, which you made known to us through Jesus your child. To you be the glory forever.” And with respect to the fragments of bread: “We give you thanks our Father, for the life and knowledge that you made known to us through Jesus your child. To you be the glory forever” (Didache 9:2-3). ** you do not have permission to see this link **
James Tabor
This precious text … provides us with clear evidence that early Christian communities were gathering together for a common thanksgiving meal called the Eucharist, blessing bread and wine, but with no connection whatsoever to the Pauline words associated with the Lord’s Supper that became the norm within Christianity.
[Jesus] thought of that meal as a “Messianic banquet” to be eaten in anticipation of the their table fellowship in the future kingdom of God. He tells the Twelve:
“You are those who have continued with me in my trials: and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:28).
This saying of Jesus is from the Q source (our earliest collection of the sayings of Jesus), not from Paul, but Luke, who connects it to the Last Supper. Luke’s version of Q is generally considered to be more accurate in preserving the structure of Q.
Steefen
Yes, we are all reading this knowing that Professor Ehrman and the Episcopalians somewhat remove cannibalism from the Last Supper.
James Tabor
Luke relies on his source Mark his Lord’s Supper account, including the Pauline tradition of the words of institution about eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus. But surprisingly, Luke knows another alternative source with no such language! He ends up placing them both into his narrative, juxtaposed one after the other:
[Tradition A: Alternative Source] And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” (Luke 22: 15-18)
[Tradition B: Mark Source] And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood (Luke 22:19-20)
When one reads both traditions as a unit it makes little sense, because Jesus ends up taking the cup twice, but saying entirely different things. When the two traditions are separated each forms a discrete unit.
Jesus is obviously not anticipating one day drinking his own blood with the disciples in the kingdom.
James Tabor
One thing seems clear. the idea of eating the body and blood one’s god, even in a symbolic manner, fits nothing we know of Jesus or the Jewish culture from which he comes.
The closest parallels we have to this kind of idea are found in Greek magical materials form this period. For example, in one of the magical papyri we read of a spell in which one drinks a cup of wine has been ritually consecrated to represent the blood of the god Osiris, in order to participate in the spiritual power of love he had for his consort Isis.
Steefen
Yes, Paul, the Egyptian Prophet.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
If one goes with the conclusion that Jesus did not say this at the Last Supper: it was created by Paul,
how does one get the cannibalism out of the Gospel of John?
If Christianity were to switch from a sacrificial Last Supper to a Messianic Banquet Last Supper, what issues arise with that?
#1 There is no Messianic Banquet when there is no coronation. What happens next is a fast ramp to execution.
Leaving the Last Supper as it has been traditionally presented fits the circumstances.
= = =
We almost have removed Jesus running afoul of Leviticus 17-10, sacrificial last supper as an atheistic act.
Steefen said
Steve Campbell, author of Historical AccuracyIf one goes with the conclusion that Jesus did not say this at the Last Supper: it was created by Paul,
how does one get the cannibalism out of the Gospel of John?
If Christianity were to switch from a sacrificial Last Supper to a Messianic Banquet Last Supper, what issues arise with that?
#1 There is no Messianic Banquet when there is no coronation. What happens next is a fast ramp to execution.
Leaving the Last Supper as it has been traditionally presented fits the circumstances.
= = =
We almost have removed Jesus running afoul of Leviticus 17-10, sacrificial last supper as an atheistic act.
**zzzzzzzzzz**
What? Huh?
I thought I heard someone saying some inane stuff.
Oh. It’s just Steefen.
Someone wake me when he leaves. K?
**zzzzzzzzzz**
Steefen said
We almost have removed Jesus running afoul of Leviticus 17-10, sacrificial last supper as an atheistic act.
Jesus did not exist in the late 20s/early 30s
but within the historical fiction (including a sacrificial Last Supper)
launched by Paul
and canonized by Early Christianity
the sacrificial last supper and the gospel of John insisting
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal Life, and I will raise him up
at the last day.
For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
within the historical fiction, the sacrificial Last Supper may be a corruption by Paul.
If Paul hadn’t influenced the gospels of Mark and Matthew, maybe the gospel of John would have a different chapter 6, verses 51-66.
Instead of changing a sacrificial Last Supper to a Messianic Banquet, just let it be a last supper.
Comment to Dr. Ehrman at
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Dr. Ehrman,
7/2/2022, you wrote, What Did Jesus Say at the Last Supper?
12/20/2015, James Tabor wrote a blog post “Eat my body, drink my blood – Did Jesus Ever Really say this?
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James Tabor:
The precise verbal similarities between these two accounts [Paul at 1 Cor 11:23-25 and Mark 14: 22-24] are remarkable considering Paul’s version was written twenty years earlier than Mark’s.
Paul got such a detailed description of what Jesus had said (1 Cor 11: 23) from the Lord what I hand to you: Jesus said this is my body and this is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me.
Mark got body and blood from Paul.
The Didache mentions a Eucharist without Paul’s mention of body and blood. The Last Supper without body and blood was a Messianic Banquet [traced to the Dead Sea Scrolls] instead of remember my body and blood [or as in gospel of John 6: 51-66 an injunction given before the Last Supper.]
Wine represents the blood of Osiris in a magical papyrus spell.
QUESTION: With the removal of Luke 22: 19-20, is the Last Supper a Messianic Banquet?
Steve Campbell
[Edited down to under 200 words]
Steefen said
Comment to Dr. Ehrman at** you do not have permission to see this link **
Dr. Ehrman,
7/2/2022, you wrote, What Did Jesus Say at the Last Supper?
12/20/2015, James Tabor wrote a blog post “Eat my body, drink my blood – Did Jesus Ever Really say this?
** you do not have permission to see this link **
James Tabor:
The precise verbal similarities between these two accounts [Paul at 1 Cor 11:23-25 and Mark 14: 22-24] are remarkable considering Paul’s version was written twenty years earlier than Mark’s.
Paul got such a detailed description of what Jesus had said (1 Cor 11: 23) from the Lord what I hand to you: Jesus said this is my body and this is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me.
Mark got body and blood from Paul.
The Didache mentions a Eucharist without Paul’s mention of body and blood. The Last Supper without body and blood was a Messianic Banquet [traced to the Dead Sea Scrolls] instead of remember my body and blood [or as in gospel of John 6: 51-66 an injunction given before the Last Supper.]
Wine represents the blood of Osiris in a magical papyrus spell.
QUESTION: With the removal of Luke 22: 19-20, is the Last Supper a Messianic Banquet?
Steve Campbell
[Edited down to under 200 words]
Bart D.E.
Steefen
And taking bread he gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is my body that is given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” Likewise after supper (he took) the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood that is shed for you. But see, the hand of the one who turns me over is with me at the table….”
I have placed some words in bold, underlined. These are the key words for the textual alteration. They are not found in some of our manuscripts
– Bart
= = =
In Luke’s short version, it is a meal remembering Christ? The request to remember Jesus is removed from the short version. Then, how did you arrive at your response?
To your question about Messianic Banquet, James Tabor suggested that with Jesus being the Messiah, his Last Supper was his Messianic Banquet borrowed from
The Messianic Rule 2. 10-20 (1QSa), in Vermes, The Dead Sea Scrolls, pp. 159-160.
Bart D.E.
I don’t know what you mean about a Messianic Banquet. In Luke (short text) it is a meal remembering Christ when the celebratory meal of bread and wine are consumed.
Steefen
And taking bread he gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is my body that is given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” Likewise after supper (he took) the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood that is shed for you. But see, the hand of the one who turns me over is with me at the table….”
I have placed some words in bold, underlined. These are the key words for the textual alteration. They are not found in some of our manuscripts
– Bart
= = =
In Luke’s short version, it is a meal remembering Christ? The request to remember Jesus is removed from the short version. Then, how did you arrive at your response?
To your question about Messianic Banquet, James Tabor suggested that with Jesus being the Messiah, his Last Supper was his Messianic Banquet borrowed from
The Messianic Rule 2. 10-20 (1QSa), in Vermes, The Dead Sea Scrolls, pp. 159-160.
Bart D.E.
Reference the short version: Luke 22: 19 [stops at body, deletes verse 20, picks up at verse 21]
And taking bread he gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is my body. Look! The hand of my betrayer…”
Reference: Luke 24: 29-31
But they pleaded with Him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So He went in to stay with them.
While He was reclining at the table with them, He took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to them.
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Jesus—and He disappeared from their sight.
Bart D.E.
He [Jesus] indicates that the bread is his body [22: 19].
Given Luke 24: 29-31, I take Luke to mean that when Jesus’ followers break bread they will think of him and recognize what he did.
Steefen
Bart: “In Luke (short text) it is a meal remembering Christ when the celebratory meal of bread and wine are consumed.”
In Luke’s short text, the Last Supper is a meal remembering Christ when the celebratory meal of bread and wine are consumed.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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I don’t know what you mean about a Messianic Banquet. In Luke (short text) it is a meal remembering Christ when the celebratory meal of bread and wine are consumed.