RICHARD CHAMBERS said
Paul never mentions Galilee in 1 Corinthians 15 (or anywhere else for that matter) and does not mention Jerusalem here either. I don’t see how he could be encouraging people to find these witnesses if he did not say where to find them of where their experience occurred.
True. Unfortunately the community sharing this credo also shared a good bit of unwritten lore that no one thought to commit to text. Even assuming there was some sort of mass sighting and it’s not just a legend, I think we can safely assume the numbers here and other places in the New Testament are exaggerated.
RICHARD CHAMBERS said
Paul never mentions Galilee in 1 Corinthians 15 (or anywhere else for that matter) and does not mention Jerusalem here either. I don’t see how he could be encouraging people to find these witnesses if he did not say where to find them of where their experience occurred.
Your position is hard to follow.
The risen Jesus was in Galilee. Pilate found out about it and sent 500 soldiers up to Galilee and they saw the risen Jesus also, then went back to Pilate.
Sometime later Paul had his vision.
Robert said
Steefen said
I am not investigating that.
OK. You seemed to be stating it as fact, which is why I asked. How does Carotta account for Paul’s references to Jesus’ crucifixion, death, and burial as well as his other references to Jesus (eg, his birth), the twelve, Cephas, James, and other apostles?
ETA: Apparently ** you do not have permission to see this link ** that Paul used the gospel of Mark:
In his missionary work Paul was not successful among the Jews, while he was very successful with the so-called ‘gentiles’, i. e. the non-Jews. The towns where he gained a firm footing are without exception Roman Caesarean colonies—Philippi, Corinth, the cities of Galatia—or centers of worship of Divus Iulius—Ephesus, Colossia, Thessalonica. The leitmotif of his letters is the difference with the Judaists, who try to Judaize those that he had ‘evangelized’. He stresses that his Gospel does not come from Jerusalem.
Did you get your threads mixed up or something?
In the original post, Robert Price is talking about a tradition providing more information about who the 500 may have been.
The video is talking about Acts of Pilate/Gospel of Nicodemus.
Robert said
Exactly. And you stated:The risen Jesus was in Galilee. Pilate found out about it and sent 500 soldiers up to Galilee and they saw the risen Jesus also, then went back to Pilate.
Sometime later Paul had his vision.
But then you denied that you were investigating what you had just said. So I asked about the later part about Paul’s vision. In the meantime, I looked up Carotta says about Paul’s dependence upon the gospel of Mark.
Correct, it like having a current issue of Biblical Archaeology Review and I happened to mention at the country club this is an interesting article, what do you think about it? It is not part of my professional investigation for my book manuscript. It was in another thread where this thread came from. “Did 500 people really see the resurrected Jesus?” Who were the 500? Well, it just so happened there’s a Robert Price video about it, maybe there is something there.
You know my position. Jesus of the late 20s/early 30s does not exist. Only by euhemerism of the angel or archangel / Logos / God’s Son who supposedly incarnated, not by Oral Tradition about a historical Jesus, did the gospels come about.
Without an actual biological person, there is no death and there is no resurrection and there is no telling Pilate about any of this.
Robert said
Then why did you say this?The risen Jesus was in Galilee. Pilate found out about it and sent 500 soldiers up to Galilee and they saw the risen Jesus also, then went back to Pilate.
Sometime later Paul had his vision.
I will not be treated with disrespect. I gave you my answer.
The Guard at the Tomb
62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, “Sir, we remember what that impostor said while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64 Therefore command the tomb to be made secure until the third day; otherwise his disciples may go and steal him away, and tell the people, ‘He has been raised from the dead,’ and the last deception would be worse than the first.”
The Report of the Guard
11 While they were going, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 After the priests[** you do not have permission to see this link **] had assembled with the elders, they devised a plan to give a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 telling them, “You must say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this comes to the governor’s ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story is still told among the Jews to this day.
the assumption here seems to be that priests had foreknowledge about the disciples spreading the story that the body has been raised from the dead. I remember that the disciples go to galilee in matthews version, they weren’t spreading any stories about the body being raised yet.
if we assume that the appearance to the 500 is historical, why would the authour of matthew need to invent that the jews were having success in their rebuttal to the reason why the body was missing from the tomb?
“you guys were spreading lies, while we had jesus appearing in the public to masses of people and the story of his public appearances is known till this day”
but we note that in none of the synoptics does jesus makes public appearances.
I don’t think it’s going too far to think that all of the resurrection tales are non-historical and reflect the concerns of the tellers rather than any historical memory. Note that Paul is using his credo in 1 Cor 15 to validate the early leadership and his relationship to it. Matthew’s community is having controversies with the Pharisees of his own day. Of course these writers had traditions but they are not using them dispassionately. All we can say with any confidence is that some of Jesus’ followers came to believe he was raised from the dead.
Even if there is a historical core to the story of the 500 witnesses, mass visionary occurrences are not unheard of. Take the famous “Miracle of the Sun” at Fatima in 1917. Three peasant children claimed that the Virgin Mary told them she would appear and perform a great miracle. Thousands of gatherers subsequently claimed that the sun spun across the sky giving off bursts of radiant colors. However, if you actually go back and investigate (something we can’t do with the 500) you find that only one of the children claimed to have actually seen Mary, and there were thousands of attendees at the mass rally that reported seeing nothing unusual. It’s not at all hard to imagine some similar occurrence and subsequent exaggeration among the followers of Jesus. Not everyone has to have the vision to be caught up in the fervor. Surely the resurrection experience whatever its nature was much messier than the streamlined accounts we have in Paul and the gospels.
Iskander Robertson
The Guard at the Tomb
62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, “Sir, we remember what that impostor said while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64 Therefore command the tomb to be made secure until the third day; otherwise his disciples may go and steal him away, and tell the people, ‘He has been raised from the dead,’ and the last deception would be worse than the first.”
The Report of the Guard
11 While they were going, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 After the priests[** you do not have permission to see this link **] had assembled with the elders, they devised a plan to give a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 telling them, “You must say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this comes to the governor’s ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story is still told among the Jews to this day.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
Before Jesus Ascended to Heaven on the 40th day of his resurrection, 500 soldiers of Pilate went to Galilee.
You are bringing up what precautions were taken before the resurrection; and,
with Matthew 28: 10-15, you are bringing up the day of the resurrection when the guards saw the empty tomb and went to the priests who probably thought it was fortunate that they came to the priests before going to Pilate.
Iskander Robertson
the assumption here seems to be that priests had foreknowledge about the disciples spreading the story that the body has been raised from the dead. I remember that the disciples go to galilee in matthews version, they weren’t spreading any stories about the body being raised yet.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
First, the chief priests and Pharisees were doing risk management: it is possible the disciples would start a rumor. You cannot prove foreknowledge, probably saying Judas revealed that Jesus’ body would be stolen by the disciples so they could say he was resurrected.
Iskander Robertson
if we assume that the appearance to the 500 is historical, why would the author of Matthew need to invent that the Jews were having success (they got guards at the tomb and they bribed the guards who came to them) in their rebuttal to the reason why the body was missing from the tomb?
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
Because the guards told Pilate, according to the bribe, the disciples stole the body and perhaps after they put the body somewhere they will start telling people he resurrected. Well, that did not happen. They did not know to tell until they saw Jesus in Galilee where the women told them to go. So, they get to Galilee and see Jesus, there. Then they started telling people and news got back south to Pilate who sent 500 guards north to Galilee.
Iskander Robertson
but we note that in none of the synoptics does jesus makes public appearances.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
He was spotted, he didn’t make a public appearance. Paul’s revelatory Jesus knew he was being tracked and let himself be seen by the 500 who came looking for him. Go back to Jerusalem and tell Pilate, the priests, and the Pharisees that. What you don’t know is that I can change my appearance so no one can recognize me and I can disappear if I need to do that. So, don’t think you can apprehend me and bring me back to Pilate or the priests and Pharisees.
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