Jarek said
CEJ said
Jarek said
….My Paul is bigger than yours.
Your Paul seems a bit strained to me.
That was the plan. His plan
But that’s just the issue. There was no plan. The problem is the conspiratorial view of history. The idea that history is the result of conscious actors making conscious decisions. When we what we really have is contingency, probability, accident. Emerson talked about becoming giddy when he contemplated the spinning wheels of history. It does make you dizzy to think that the whole history of civilization could change because someone was clumsy with a candle or placed a single manuscript on the top shelf and just forgot about it until it rotted.
The astounding thing about texts from the ancient world is not what we have. It’s that we have anything at all! The most famous playwright of the Graeco-Roman world was Sophocles. Surviving accounts record that in his career he wrote upwards of 120 plays of which 7, count’em, s-e-v-e-n survive. Now we can assure ourselves that these seven must be the best ones but who can say?
No one thinks Paul wrote only 7 letters. (Odd coincidence that. I wonder if the proportion of Paul’s surviving letters to his entire production matches Sophocles?) Think how easily those 7 could have been lost. Without Paul Christianity might never have mutated from a Jewish sect to a world religion.
History is what we can verify that happened. But there is no plan.
Stephen said
History is what we can verify that happened. But there is no plan.
At least over the long term, this is correct. The ridiculously intricate, sprawling and multi-generational conspiracies promoted by the Dan Browns of the world and their ilk are just that — ridiculous and of little value other than trashy entertainment. (Hitler, at least, did have a plan for taking over Europe, which, fortunately, didn’t work out to well for him. Thus, there are at least small plans, even if ambitious ones. And yet history, writ large, is what usually happens in spite of those plans.)
Stephen said
Jarek said
CEJ said
Jarek said
….My Paul is bigger than yours.
Your Paul seems a bit strained to me.
That was the plan. His plan
But that’s just the issue. There was no plan. The problem is the conspiratorial view of history. The idea that history is the result of conscious actors making conscious decisions. When we what we really have is contingency, probability, accident. Emerson talked about becoming giddy when he contemplated the spinning wheels of history. It does make you dizzy to think that the whole history of civilization could change because someone was clumsy with a candle or placed a single manuscript on the top shelf and just forgot about it until it rotted.
The astounding thing about texts from the ancient world is not what we have. It’s that we have anything at all! The most famous playwright of the Graeco-Roman world was Sophocles. Surviving accounts record that in his career he wrote upwards of 120 plays of which 7, count’em, s-e-v-e-n survive. Now we can assure ourselves that these seven must be the best ones but who can say?
No one thinks Paul wrote only 7 letters. (Odd coincidence that. I wonder if the proportion of Paul’s surviving letters to his entire production matches Sophocles?) Think how easily those 7 could have been lost. Without Paul Christianity might never have mutated from a Jewish sect to a world religion.
History is what we can verify that happened. But there is no plan.
I’m so sorry. CEJ made a terse comment about strained Paul, which I found joking. (Such a small cultural difference.) In response, I wrote a travesty of the words of the Joker when he disguised himself as a nurse (Schemers ..). Please. Forget about that plan because it was a joke. I am in a market that is totally disorganized. I set up a congregation and a competitor comes and takes it over. I visit another congregation myself and take it over too, for a while. Over and over again. Each of us says something different, we curse each other in front of people and they think we are clowns. And we all had a revelation. Well, it doesn’t look serious. What can you think of? And let’s come up with a great tradition, a great apostle to which we will all refer. We will continue to be competitors, but we will not destroy the enthusiasm of the faithful with our games. This is called product development. This is the standardization of the offer which makes it more credible.
For the record. The first phase is local initiatives without professional management, insufficient supply of content, competitive and contradictory content products offered by different preachers. They are not missionaries yet – everyone is a direct apostle of Jesus through personal revelation. Some congregations arise, others fall, others are captured. Over and over again. Somehow it turns but at a great unnecessary cost.
The first innovation A BOOK – innovation because it changes the profile of a preacher from an apostle to a missionary. Standardization of the offer and training.
Second innovation – THE GREAT APOSTLE and his Pauline Corpus. He alone had the revelation and he alone is the source of knowledge. The missionary no longer has to undergo revelation or invent anything about Jesus. End of the apostolic era. Time to produce missionaries.
Jarek said
For the record. The first phase is local initiatives without professional management, insufficient supply of content, competitive and contradictory content products offered by different preachers. They are not missionaries yet – everyone is a direct apostle of Jesus through personal revelation. Some congregations arise, others fall, others are captured. Over and over again. Somehow it turns but at a great unnecessary cost.The first innovation A BOOK – innovation because it changes the profile of a preacher from an apostle to a missionary. Standardization of the offer and training.
Second innovation – THE GREAT APOSTLE and his Pauline Corpus. He alone had the revelation and he alone is the source of knowledge. The missionary no longer has to undergo revelation or invent anything about Jesus. End of the apostolic era. Time to produce missionaries.
You haven’t taken your meds today, have you?
CEJ said
Jarek said
For the record. The first phase is local initiatives without professional management, insufficient supply of content, competitive and contradictory content products offered by different preachers. They are not missionaries yet – everyone is a direct apostle of Jesus through personal revelation. Some congregations arise, others fall, others are captured. Over and over again. Somehow it turns but at a great unnecessary cost.
The first innovation A BOOK – innovation because it changes the profile of a preacher from an apostle to a missionary. Standardization of the offer and training.
Second innovation – THE GREAT APOSTLE and his Pauline Corpus. He alone had the revelation and he alone is the source of knowledge. The missionary no longer has to undergo revelation or invent anything about Jesus. End of the apostolic era. Time to produce missionaries.
You haven’t taken your meds today, have you?
I am fine, thank You
Paul boasts of the revelation of the resurrected Jesus. It is the source of the doctrine he presents, his theological propositions, his exegesis of the LXX. As for Jesus’ earthly life, he was not a witness to it. All he knows is that Jesus was condemned, died on the cross and rose again.
Did Paul know the stories of Jesus’ life, his teachings, and the activities of the itinerant prophet? I do not know. If he did not know – the matter is simple. If he did, what was his attitude towards these stories? In my opinion, he treated them with reserve, he did not believe in their lasting success. He hadn’t heard them before, they suddenly appeared, he wasn’t sure of the source, maybe he didn’t believe their authors. These stories grew in popularity and something had to be done. Paul added to these stories through occasional contacts with Jesus’ disciples and with His brother. This will, of course, be developed later by others, because both traditions can be called a complementary products.
I believe that the Gospel stories come from folk religiosity, where the creators are less sophisticated but they make up for it with courage. It takes time for this to enter the salons.
Marcion conducts professional congregations. Congregations founded by his people, who all do the same according to a learned pattern. Missionaries provide constant care over the congregation, know exactly what to do – convert pagans, keep the faith of the converted, train new missionaries.
Last sip of Paulaner.
Jarek said
Paul boasts of the revelation of the resurrected Jesus. It is the source of the doctrine he presents, his theological propositions, his exegesis of the LXX. As for Jesus’ earthly life, he was not a witness to it. All he knows is that Jesus was condemned, died on the cross and rose again.Did Paul know the stories of Jesus’ life, his teachings, and the activities of the itinerant prophet? I do not know. If he did not know – the matter is simple. If he did, what was his attitude towards these stories? In my opinion, he treated them with reserve, he did not believe in their lasting success. He hadn’t heard them before, they suddenly appeared, he wasn’t sure of the source, maybe he didn’t believe their authors. These stories grew in popularity and something had to be done. Paul added to these stories through occasional contacts with Jesus’ disciples and with His brother. This will, of course, be developed later by others, because both traditions can be called a complementary products.
I believe that the Gospel stories come from folk religiosity, where the creators are less sophisticated but they make up for it with courage. It takes time for this to enter the salons.
Marcion conducts professional congregations. Congregations founded by his people, who all do the same according to a learned pattern. Missionaries provide constant care over the congregation, know exactly what to do – convert pagans, keep the faith of the converted, train new missionaries.
Last sip of Paulaner.
Now that’s the sort of post I enjoy. Took a bit of a veer at the “professional congregation” stuff, but, heck, I’ve run off the road before, too.
CEJ said
Jarek said
Paul boasts of the revelation of the resurrected Jesus. It is the source of the doctrine he presents, his theological propositions, his exegesis of the LXX. As for Jesus’ earthly life, he was not a witness to it. All he knows is that Jesus was condemned, died on the cross and rose again.
Did Paul know the stories of Jesus’ life, his teachings, and the activities of the itinerant prophet? I do not know. If he did not know – the matter is simple. If he did, what was his attitude towards these stories? In my opinion, he treated them with reserve, he did not believe in their lasting success. He hadn’t heard them before, they suddenly appeared, he wasn’t sure of the source, maybe he didn’t believe their authors. These stories grew in popularity and something had to be done. Paul added to these stories through occasional contacts with Jesus’ disciples and with His brother. This will, of course, be developed later by others, because both traditions can be called a complementary products.
I believe that the Gospel stories come from folk religiosity, where the creators are less sophisticated but they make up for it with courage. It takes time for this to enter the salons.
Marcion conducts professional congregations. Congregations founded by his people, who all do the same according to a learned pattern. Missionaries provide constant care over the congregation, know exactly what to do – convert pagans, keep the faith of the converted, train new missionaries.
Last sip of Paulaner.
Now that’s the sort of post I enjoy. Took a bit of a veer at the “professional congregation” stuff, but, heck, I’ve run off the road before, too.
Marcion sends a missionary where there is already a congregation of Christians. The missionary puts on his own. if he fails to defeat the existing congregation, Marcion sends someone better to change him, and shifts the first one to the easier market. Professional project management
His
Robert said
Jarek said
Marcion sends a missionary where there is already a congregation of Christians. The missionary puts on his own. if he fails to defeat the existing congregation, Marcion sends someone better to change him, and shifts the first one to the easier market. Professional project management
The missionary puts on his own … his own what? What was he trying to defeat? You don’t think Marcion was ideologically or theologically motivated, so what his aim?
Thinking in Polish.. Sorry . A missionary organizes his own congregation, regardless of whether there are any others. Marcion’s aim is to built and managed his own network. Theology defines the range of influence in addition to its main function
Robert said
But you said that “Marcion sends a missionary where there is already a congregation of Christians,” and that “if he fails to defeat the existing congregation, Marcion sends someone better.” So what was Marcion trying to defeat in the existing congregations of Christians?
Mergers, acquisitions, hostile takeovers. Tis trying to win competition. Catholic vs Pentacostal, etc…
Marcion’s missionary activity is building a network that is subordinate to him. He does not look at others otherwise as at competitors or partners (if they accept his offer)
Jarek said
IRobert said
But why? What were the differences between Catholics and Pentecostals in his context? Or was he out for financial gain?
It is a benchmark. Competition of different denominations.
Marcion’s missionary activity is building a network that is subordinate to him. He does not look at others otherwise as at competitors or partners (if they accept his offer)
Jarek said
Robert said
So he was just interested in power over others?
Like every leader, he was convinced that he had been called to leadership. He was called by God
They all believed deeply that they were called by God to a great project. Called as leaders, as theologians, as missionaries. Their motivation was pure, they acted for the greater good. They believed that God was right in choosing them.
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