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Paul's understanding of salvation
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Jill_L

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July 23, 2024 - 3:04 pm

Also from the Book of Enoch on Wikipedia:

The individuals residing in the Qumran Caves, where the Dead Sea Scrolls and the book were unearthed, were not aligned with the mainstream Jewish sect known as the Pharisees. Instead, they were affiliated with a splinter group called the Essenes, who adhered to distinctive practices. Hence, the Book of Enoch, alongside numerous other texts discovered in the caves, is recognized for its substantial variance from Rabbinic Judaism.[5]

Paul was a Pharisee. This states Qumran was not aligned with the Pharisee. I think that’s an important clue. Seems Paul here is refuting works of the law as outlined in 4QMMT. . .

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Robert
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July 23, 2024 - 5:45 pm
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Stephen
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July 24, 2024 - 11:53 am

There is some speculation among Dead Sea Scroll scholars that one or more of the Qumran caves may have functioned as a Genizah, a cache of discarded documents stored prior to proper ceremonial burial, as was the custom, since such holy documents could not be destroyed. Makes you wonder what else is buried out there under the shifting sands, awaiting some clumsy Bedouin.

We can’t say that about you, now, can we Stephen?

Actually I have no sense of humor, having had it removed along with my foreskin a few days after birth.

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Jill_L

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July 24, 2024 - 12:09 pm

Actually I have no sense of humor, having had it removed along with my foreskin a few days after birth.

What would an emoji be to express your feelings about that?

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Porphyry

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July 24, 2024 - 12:37 pm

Why, Jill? Why did you have to make that visual?

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Jill_L

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July 24, 2024 - 12:43 pm

Porphyry, I’m just imagining how hurtful living without a sense of humor would be. :\

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DavidFord

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July 26, 2024 - 9:14 am

Bart D. Ehrman, _Journeys to Heaven and Hell: Tours of the Afterlife in the Early Christian Tradition_ (2022), 328pp., on 232

The Universal Harrowing of Hell
We have seen an intriguing range of early Christian texts that in one way or another make the strongest soteriological claim possible:
in the end, all will be saved.
Whether based on the incredible scope of Christ’s salvation (Paul), mind-boggling divine mercy (_Apocalypse of Peter_), or irresistible divine sovereignty (Origen),
all these universalist views in the end share an underlying theme:
salvation ultimately derives from the unstoppable power of God.

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Stephen
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July 26, 2024 - 12:44 pm

What would an emoji be to express your feelings about that?

Any response I make runs the risk of being too much, or not enough!

Discretion being the better part…etc.

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Jill_L

598 Posts
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July 26, 2024 - 12:50 pm

Oh, yes. I agree. I should say I apologize for not understanding the full scope of the statement. That is, how I think the full scope was intended. So we’ll drop it. Thanks!

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DavidFord

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September 5, 2024 - 6:29 pm

Ric Machuga, _The Story of Christianity Told as Good News for All_ (2023), 124pp., on xvii

I believe in the God who can and will save everyone.
My belief is grounded in a literal reading of St. Paul:
“Just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all,
so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all”
(Romans 5:18).

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Colin Milton

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November 18, 2024 - 6:42 am

Salvation is what in the OT? Salvation is being alive when you should be dead.

Ephesians 2

They are dead in sin. They are still alive in Christ. Therefore the Christ has given them salvation.

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Colin Milton

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November 18, 2024 - 7:35 am

If you sin you will die, unless you’ve been forgiven, then your death will be postponed for a time. Animal sacrifice can no longer achieve forgiveness.

Therefore we have to go all the way back to Adam and Eve and explain the entire concept of sin and forgiveness as it explains death and life and priests offering the animal sacrifices.

Paul concludes that Christ was the sacrifice for sin, therefore they’re still alive. Sin causes death. Salvation creates life.

That however is all theologically incorrect. Paul can be outwitted if you carefully examine Genesis. The actual first sin is the first death, not Adam and Eve disobeying God. The word sin in Genesis is mentioned at Genesis 4:7. Cain killing Abel was the first sin.

Paul Debunked according to scripture itself.

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Jill_L

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November 18, 2024 - 8:27 am

Gen 3:24; then Gen 4:8

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Colin Milton

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November 20, 2024 - 5:49 pm

@jill

The word sin doesn’t appear until chapter 4. Sin cannot exist in the Garden of Eden because it contains a unique life, that is immortal life. Adam and Eve only know of the existence of good and evil before they are banished. Genesis 3:22

They know that they are alive and they will die someday. Either way, God cannot allow them to live forever. Doing so would mean that God has created more Gods.

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Colin Milton

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November 20, 2024 - 6:34 pm

Nobody can possibly understand what sin is until they witnessed death. Nobody can possibly understand what salvation is until they witnessed a rescue from death. The father dies because the son has not enough love to keep him alive forever.

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Robert
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November 20, 2024 - 6:56 pm
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Colin Milton

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November 20, 2024 - 7:02 pm

The family (Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel) all they mostly know is that they will die someday, Cain and Abel are giving sacrifices to keep Adam alive forever. They’re trying to live forever. Cain doesn’t love his brother Abel very much after the sacrifices, apparently Abel will live longer because his sacrifice was favored by God. Cain chooses to outlive Abel. The first sin.

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