Robert
He humbled himself

And become obedient to the point of death (even death on a cross).

Steefen
Why do some say this being was crucified in heaven rather than on earth?

It is so apparent that the cosmic being became human first.

So many questions we’ll never get answers to.

Would Paul have found his view of Jesus’ incarnation at all inconsistent with a normal biological birth?

Did Paul make the distinction we do between the Christology in Romans 1:3-4 and in Philippians 2? Both acknowledge that Jesus was a human being. Both assert that Jesus was exalted to a special status with God. Paul had no trouble calling out even the “Pillars” when he saw them as a threat to his gospel. Yet he quotes the Adoptionist formulation in Romans without batting an eyelid. If he saw his Christology – Jesus’ pre-existence – as central to his gospel why would he do that? It’s been suggested that Paul is schmoozing the congregation at Rome (an older established community with an older view) because he needs their assistance. All things to all men? Tell that to Peter and James.

Robert
Born of the seed of David
Designated Son of God from the resurrection of (the realm of) the dead

Steefen
not from the Baptism or the Transfiguration before the resurrection?

Then, hardly was there a historical Jesus or an Oral Tradition before Paul.

And let’s not forget Jesus answering in the affirmative that he was the Son of the Most Blessed and the Roman Centurion at Calvary saying, “Truly this was the Son of God.”

Robert
Paul does not claim Jesus was designated Son of God

1) at his baptism
2) at the transfiguration scene
3) before the high priest
4) by the Roman centurion at Calvary.

Steefen
I am questioning Paul had an authentic vision of the same Jesus of the late 20s / early 30s.
I am questioning Paul visited the communities of eyewitnesses of Jesus of the late 20s / early 30s.

Robert
At most, you can merely say that Paul apparently does not know know these specific stories. It does not follow that therefore Jesus did not exist.

Steefen
Paul provides insufficient evidence that Jesus existed. His knowledge of Jesus is insufficient and erroneous; but, the gospels CAN BE the placing of Paul’s angel in historical context, making Jesus someone who existed but someone who was placed in the historical context of the late 20s / early 30s — euhemerization. Paul is ignorant of so much because the euhemerization had not been completed by the time he wrote his last authentic letter.

Second, one could say Paul is being headstrong about his own Christology, belligerently, ignoring a Jesus who did exist late 20s/early 30s.
Paul was more interested in his mystic religion of the angel than he was of, say, joining with the Hellenists who survived the stoning of Stephen.

Before the martyrdom,

Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, as well as Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.
Acts 6: 5

But they were selected from other Hellenists because of the neglect of non-Jewish, Hellenist widows. The Hellenists seemed to have been believers in a historical Jesus. Maybe they were believers in an angel Jesus but wanted to follow orthodox Judaism.

Either 1) there was no Jesus, just an orthodox group who believed in the angel mystical religion and a gentile group being started by Paul who believed in the angel mystical religion or 2) there was a historical Jesus in the late 20s / early 30s and a religion tied to that man.

Robert
Jesus was not merely some kind of an angelic figure, but he became human and was executed with a slave’s punishment, death on a cross.

Steefen
That is misleading. So many insurrectionists died on a cross.

Robert
For Paul, there had been an earthly Jesus.

Steefen
The earthly Jesus Paul knew was not the earthly Jesus of the gospels.

Robert
Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation signaled the coming transformation of the world into the Kingdom of God where the dead would be raised to live as spiritual beings. Even the worthy who were still alive would be transformed and receive incorruptible spiritual bodies to live in this Kingdom of God.

Steefen
That did not happen despite your majority of critical scholars. It was supposed to happen before some listening to Jesus died. There was a time limit on all of that.

Robert
This coming reality

Steefen
A reality that did not come.

Robert
and the practical issues of forming communities that would thus be saved from the coming destruction of all evil powers

Steefen
What did Paul do to save people from Rebels?
What did Paul do to save people from Romans?

Who do you think the evil powers were: the insurrectionists who started the Jewish Revolt? Why?
Who do you think the evil powers were: Rome? Why?

You and the majority of critical scholars must identify the parties of which you speak and face reality: did all evil powers get destroyed? No.

Robert
was much more important to Paul than writing some kind of biography of the historical Jesus with stories about his baptism.

Steefen
I raise a penalty flag of false dichotomy: Paul has to form communities that would be saved from the destruction of all evil powers (that failed: his communities were not saved from the destruction of all evil powers) or Paul needed to get at least one item right about the biography of Jesus.

And what would that be?

Is he the first born archangel of God? Did that first born archangel of God, when he became human, retain Son of God status and when did he get get that status: at the Annunciation, at the Baptism, at the Transfiguration, at Calvary–not the incorrect answer of not during his lifetime but only after he resurrected and the living corpse had Thomas touch his wounds.

Robert
Paul is at best only indirectly or implicitly critical of Rome, ‘though he most likely did consider all of the current governments of the world, which was predominantly that of Rome, to be part of the evil world order that would be destroyed along with all other wicked people. He saw himself as saying people from the coming wrath of God by incorporating them into communities of believers in God’s coming salvation. We do not have any texts of Paul that speak to the brewing Judean war against Rome. Some have speculated that the coming erection of the statue of Caligula in the Temple or other similar strife in Jerusalem could have been alluded to in 1 Thes 2,16, but that is merely a passing reference.

Steefen, Argumentation Specialist,
This clearly misses a point being made in the Parable of the Wicked [Evil] Tenants.
The Jewish Establishment was evil for at least killing a priest named Zechariah, for killing James, and for killing Jesus.

Second, those fighting for Jewish independence from Rome also were evil, particularly for some of the ways they fought for Jewish independence: attacking rich Jews, attacking high priests, bringing the Temple into the Revolt.