FocusMyView said
Wouldn’t Tacitus’ mention of his Moses being sent away by the lawgiver Bocchoris make more sense, since both were famous lawgivers?
Bocchoris may refer to:
In history
Bakenranef, known by the ancient Greeks as Bocchoris, a king of the twenty-fourth dynasty of Egypt
Bocchoris (city), an ancient city in northern Majorca, Spain, that was federated to Rome
Steefen
The time frame is nonsensical.
Exodus from a Historical Perspective
It has proved difficult for biblical scholars to establish when these events are to have taken place. The most common dating of the exodus event places it around 1250 BCE, for three reasons. … The exodus tradition was hugely important, as it became a kind of “founding legend” for the nation of Israel. It does not appear to be actual history.
QUESTION:
What do you and other biblical scholars say about Artapanus, the ancient historian, who wrote about Moses, even giving the name of his pharaoh-stepfather?
~ ~ ~
And Artapanus says, in his book Concerning the Jews…
~ ~ ~
Kha-nefer-re was the throne name for Sobek-hotep IV, circa 1535 BCE, not a pharaoh of the 18th or 19th Dynasty, circa 1250 BCE.
Lecture 2: Moses and the Exodus: Fact or Fiction?
Picking up at 17:33
19th Dynasty vs. end of 13th Dynasty
There is no evidence of Semitic people where 19th Dynasty Ramesses the Great lived.
There is no evidence of a plague there.
But the 13th Dynasty has both.
= = =
The Wilderness Tradition
Well, there are three areas of Wilderness in the Sinai:
1) Wilderness of Shur in the north
2) Wilderness of Sin, north of the vertical midpoint of Sinai
3) Wilderness of Sinai below the vertical midpoint of the peninsula
The third route is the longer route to Canaan but the best route because it has water and vegetation.
= = =
First, we have to get from Avaris to Yam Suph:
Goshen > Succoth > Etham > Pi-Hahiroth – Yam Suph
pick up at 32:25
Pi-ha-Khiroth – Mouth of the Canal (the people of the Exodus had traveled south along a canal but had to turn back, northwards to the beginning of the canal).
Serabit al Khadim is where they reached and they find a temple to Hathor. They mined turquoise. The miners were Semitic.
The miracle of mannah is a natural phenomenon. The miracle is the large amount of mannah because naturally, the amount is smaller.
St. Catherine’s Monastery is in the general area of Mt. Horeb where the burning bush and the Ten Commandment tablets event happened.
The Golden Calf was the goddess of Hathor.
Hathor, in ancient Egyptian religion, goddess of the sky, of women, and of fertility and love. … The name Hathor means “estate of Horus” and may not be her original name. Her principal animal form was that of a cow, and she was strongly associated with motherhood.
Aaron died on top of a mountain. The location is known. Petra, of course did not exist at that time but the Mountain of Aaron looks down upon the future Petra. The Nabateans worshiped Aaron: Dushara = Lord of the Mountain.
[The problem with the lecture DVD is that, we are way south in Sinai, without a map or explanation he goes north to Jericho.]
The king of Hazor, Yabni-Addu/Jabin that Joshua killed in the Middle Bronze Age is verified by an archaeological find.
Judges 9:45-49 is also proven archaeologically.
(We are at about 1 hour 11 minutes of DVD 1, Lecture 2).
End of Part II a couple of minutes later.
Q&A
The territory of Median expands into Sinai.
Gulf of Aqaba parting of the sea is a lesser explanation.
Moses is at the head of the group. The count of days is based on the head of the group, not the people at the back of the group.
The Sea of Reeds is more suitable for a wind setdown than the Gulf of Aqaba.
The Second BIG Mistake
Champolion made the mistake in 1828 of translating Yad-ha-Melek as Yudah-ha-Malkuth and tied his mistranslation to 2 Chronicles 12: 1-4 which speaks of Shishak, king of Egypt who marched on Jerusalem.
By seeing Yudah-ha-Malkuth, he mistakenly linked archaeology to Bible.
Judah the Kingdom is not right. He matched the Biblical Shishak to Shoshenk I, founder of the 22nd Dynasty.
Hand of the King is the correct translation. Second Yad-ha-Melek is next to Aruna which is no where near Judah, Jerusalem, specifically.
2 Chronicles 12: 9 – Shishak took the golden shields which Solomon had made.
Where is Jerusalem in the Shoshenk I military campaign list? It is not there.
Shoshenk I does NOT go to Jerusalem. He avoids Judah.
Egyptological dating has been based on the Biblical Shishak equalling Shoshenk I in Egyptology.
Shoshenk I has incorrectly been pegged to 925 BCE.
= = =
So, let us try to date Shoshenk I correctly.
Shoshenk actually dates 100+ years later at 820 BCE – 790 BCE.
Worse: The Bible put Ramesses II / The Great at 1279/1275 BCE but the correcting of the chronology puts him at 958 BCE, hundreds of years difference.
So, those who insist the Exodus is tied to the storehouses of Ramesses II /The Great would have to date the Exodus earlier, circa 958 BC.
The Implications:
The New Chronology: Ramesses II reigned in the 10th century BC
Solomon reigned in the 10th century BC
Shishak plundered the Temple of Solomon in the 10th century BC
So: It could be that Ramesses the Great was not dealing with Moses but with Solomon or one of the kings after Solomon.
Pick up at DVD #2, Lecture 3, 30:40
Was Ramesses the Great the Biblical Shishak?
Ramesses II’s Hypocoristicon (Elizabeth becomes Liz or Beth)
He had a short form of his name, a hypocoristicon, and it was Shysha.
Shysha was the Biblical Shishak: Ramesses the Great was the Biblical Shishak.
Ra-mes-ses becomes Sesoosis in Greek and Sesostris in Greek.
Then it became Sysw or Sysa.
Rohl brings up Papyrus Anastasi I
What is it like, this place Simyra of Sysw?
So, the scribe is using the hypocoristicon of Ramesses the Great.
He speaks of the dwelling of Sysw and a region of Sysw.
So, how do you get the k on the end? You have to look at the development of the letters Qoph and Waw.
When Josiah brought ancient scrolls up to create the Hebrew Bible, at that time Waw had become Qoph and Sy-sw had become Sy-sk. (There was no difference between S and Sh.)
Look at the Israel Stele (the Merneptah Stele)
Ramesses the Great attacked Jerusalem under its earlier name Shalem.
When Ramesses the Great attacked Israel, Israel had chariots. You cannot put Moses at the time of Ramesses the Great because the Israelites with Moses did not have chariots.
End of Part III
The great conquest of Chapters 1-12 in Joshua are problematic. The conquest of chapters 1-12 are shown to be false in the rest of the book, since those cities are still Canaanite cities when Joshua dies. Jabin of Hazor is mentioned once briefly in this summary conquest. Jabin of Hazor is mentioned in detail in Judges, where he is defeated by Deborah.
I do think its possible some of these characters did exist, and were written about and could be found in the libraries of Assherbanipal, in Babylon, or (convenient to a Deutoronomist historian), in Egypt.
None of the various places the Exodus would have traveled move me to think the Exodus was real. London is real, Harry Potter is not. Again, we have no Egyptian tradition of it before it was written about in the Hellenistic era.
Can you believe how many hours of film this guy has devoted to the names of Sheshonk, Shishak, and Ramses?
Out of curiosity, if we make Shishak Ramses, who is Sheshonk?
Focus My View
The great conquest of Chapters 1-12 in Joshua are problematic. The conquest of chapters 1-12 are shown to be false in the rest of the book, since those cities are still Canaanite cities when Joshua dies. Jabin of Hazor is mentioned once briefly in this summary conquest. Jabin of Hazor is mentioned in detail in Judges, where he is defeated by Deborah.
I do think its possible some of these characters did exist, and were written about and could be found in the libraries of Assherbanipal, in Babylon, or (convenient to a Deutoronomist historian), in Egypt.
Steefen
Okay, you have a problem with the book of Joshua. Second, you say Jabin of Hazor appears in the Bible. You are saying he was killed by a woman? Third, yes, characters in the Hebrew Bible are historical people.
Focus My View
None of the various places the Exodus would have traveled move me to think the Exodus was real.
Steefen
You are in error.
Focus My View
London is real, Harry Potter is not. Again, we have no Egyptian tradition of it before it was written about in the Hellenistic era.
Steefen
Jewish claim / Jewish tradition is sufficient. Jewish claim / Jewish tradition with Egyptology is more than sufficient.
Focus My View
Can you believe how many hours of film this guy has devoted to the names of Sheshonk, Shishak, and Ramses?
Steefen
Much work has gone into his very high quality presentation. He is a good educator.
Focus My View
Out of curiosity, if we make Shishak Ramses, who is Sheshonk?
Steefen
Shoshenk I was a pharaoh. That he was not the biblical Shishak has no bearing on his biography. A 19th century Egyptologist making a mistake, assigning the wrong pharaoh to a biblical character does not change Egyptian history.
Q & A on Lecture Three
Q: What’s going on with these timelines?
A: Ramesses moves forward in time from 1279 BC to 943 BC.
If you are excavating Meggido and you find an Egyptian artifact, then the Egyptian artifact takes on the date of the stratum of the excavation.
Meggido is a Solomonic city.
Q: What do Egyptians think?
A: The Egyptians are more comfortable with Moses “making a fool of” the pharaoh named Dudimose than Moses and his God trumping Ramesses the Great.
Steefen
Rohl says Ramesses the Great moves forward in time 200+ years but Akhen-aten does not.
He will need to fill in Egyptian history some kind of way. THIS IS HIS PROBLEM: he does not want to move David and Solomon back in time to Ramesses the Great but he wants to move Ramesses the Great forward in time and create slack in Egypt’s timeline because the Bible lists successions from David and Solomon. Maybe that should not be preserved since David and Saul appear in the Amarna Letters long before 943 BC.
Lecture Four: Legendary Kings and Chronicles, Rediscovering Israel’s United Monarchy
Shoshenk I saves the biblical Jehoahaz and his people from attack by the Arameans(?), circa 820 BCE.
Steefen
So far, and so far as I am concerned, there is a gap in time in the Biblical timeline. Rohl said during the Q&A that the non-dependent chronology of the Assyrians with an Assyrian writing a letter to Akhen-aten leaves Akhen-aten at the conventional dating, say 1350 BCE. And we have Saul and David in the Amarna Letters at around 1350 BCE. Hence, the gap is between David and Solomon. That father-son generation is broken! ! !
1 Kings 9:15
Solomon and his Egyptian wife is discussed by Rohl.
Solomon’s wife probably is not a daughter of Ramesses the Great.
Remember Solomon was supposed to be the richest and wises king of his time. By Rohl putting Solomon at the time of Ramesses the Great, he is in error because Solomon was not richer or greater than Ramesses the Great.
There is a 100% match between archaeology and 1 Kings 7:9-12. (See this DVD lecture between 10 minutes and 10 minutes and 35 seconds.)
Pick up at 12:14.
The idea of an “exodus” story being near Bocchoris is way off, according to you. Why? Because of Joshua?
What if the Joshua conquests and the Exodus conquests are both historical but completely unrelated?
You mention Jabin of Hezron. Perhaps a real person. Perhaps him being defeated is mirrored in two different stories. Once in Joshua and once in Judges.
Certainly there is a growing acceptance of the idea that the Exodus is a misremembered Levite escapade traveling from Egypt to Canaan. That would be a Bocchoris type timeline.
Where do you see a David or a Saul in the Armana letters?
I love the concept of “Solomonic days”, btw. I really can get over a Saul or a David existing. But Solomon is so exaggerated, and his name is reminiscent of Jerusalem, which has a name far more ancient than the Saul or David legends, imho. If you could just refer to that period as “Davidic”, it would so help my state of mind, thanks. 😛 I even think “Early Monarchy” is silly since the Armana letters show kings ruled these cities before any “Israel” existed with its judges. I can only imagine that a King ruled the Jebusites in Jerusalem before David took it and became king there. So there is no lack of monarchs in the region, even if a self selected people also living in the region chose to be ruled by “judges.”
I am ranting and for that I apologize. I have been spending time in Joshua for the sake of the Deuteronomist and the Book of Jasher, and Joshua is maddeningly self contradictory. People can pick quite a few different storylines as “based on Joshua,” including a peaceful infiltration model. I am really not sure the Exodus as we have it, or really any semblance of it, existed as the first Deutoronomist wrote his history, including the older parts of Joshua.
1 kings chapter 7. The building of Solomon’s Temple? IS there any archeology that supports the need to build a temple in 10th century Jerusalem? Why on earth would there not already be a temple there from hundred of years earlier? Would not the Amorites have temples in major cities? Would not MElchizedek have worshipped El Elyon, as well as Adoni Zedek, as rulers of Jerusalem according to Genesis, Joshua, and Psalms?
What archeology shows….
A part of the wall that can be dated to earlier than the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem.
I really am a minimalist, and understand what a burden evidence can be for many people. 😀 😀 Cheers!
Solomon’s Walls 1 Kings 7: 9-12
Verse 12:
The great courtyard was surrounded by three rows of dressed stone and a row of trimmed cedar beams…
Rohl shows a photograph of this exactly.
Now, picking up at 12:14.
St. Etienne Basilica is the present-day location where Solomon’s Egyptian wife lived.
So, no. It’s not a Jesus tomb but an Egyptian burial site.
A 19th Dynasty large royal heart scarab was found. That item would have been placed over the heart of the deceased. When the scarab is turned over one can read the coronation name of Ramesses II. (Now, why would that be there, if it was not his daughter who was married to Solomon?)
“Conclusion: There was an Egyptian compound of the 19th Dynasty date located beside the Shechem road, looking down on the city of Jerusalem. The complex included a cemetery employing Egyptian burial practices. Much of the material so far unearthed suggests some form of royal occupancy of the residence.”
The Egyptian queen could not live with Solomon before his temple was built because she was of a different religion.
= = =
In the Amarna Letters, the city-state rulers of Palestine write to Akhen-aten because the Habiru are terrorizing the city-states.
The Amarna Letters consists of 385 tablets. 20% are from the Great Kings of the north. 80% are from the city-state rulers of Canaan and Syria. The latter deal with a major revolt by the Habiru rebels.
All Israelites were Hebrews but not all Hebrews were Israelites.
Professor Oded Tammuz of Ben-Gurion University says:
“It is quite possible that the life and times of the historical figure of Labaya – the Habiru leader from the Amarna Period – formed the basis for the biblical tradition of King Saul and the successful Hebrew revolt against Philistine oppression which occupies much of the first book of Samuel.”
This view is also held by Prof. Gunnar Lehmann and by Professor Israel Finkelstein.
Professor Finkelstein on Labaya and Saul.
I see a great deal of similarity between Shechem under Labaya and his sons in the 14th century and the Saul territorial entity in the 10th century BCE.
Note:
Shechem, also spelled Sichem, was a Canaanite city mentioned in the Amarna letters, and is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as an Israelite city of the tribe of Manasseh and the first capital of the Kingdom of Israel.
Both expanded from their highland hubs to the Gilead, east of the Jordan.
Both threatened cities in the Jezreel Valley.
Both Saul and Labaya established a large territorial entity in the highlands.
Both seem to have attempted to expand into the lowlands.
Both failed to do so.
Saul was the last Labaya.
= = =
Rohl says there is a mistake above. Labaya and his sons did not rule from Shechem. Labayu gives land around Shechem to the Habiru. He gives this land to the Habiru because Shechem was not his capital. He ruled over Shechem but his capital was not there.
The Amarna Letters do not specifically mention that Labaya and his sons ruled at Shechem. The only reference to Shechem is in Amarna Letter EA 289: 18-24 written by Abdi-Heba of Jerusalem [yes, Jerusalem writes to Amarna ! ] who says: “Are we to act like Labaya when he was giving the land of Shechem to the Habiru?”
= = =
Labaya’s Kingdom (it is the same as Saul’s kingdom):
The Central Hill Country excluding the Jebus (around Jerusalem)
The Hills of Galilee
The Jordan Valley
Gilead in Transjordan
He did not control the lowland territories of the Jezreel, sharon Plain or Coastal Plain of Philstia
= = =
Labaya = The Lion Man or The Lion of Ya (Yahweh)
= = =
What the Bible does not tell us is that Saul (Labaya) wrote to Akhen-aten ! ! !
pick up at 39:20
Labaya Mentioned in the Hebrew Bible
Psalm 57: 4
David: I lie surrounded by mighty lions (Heb labaim), greedy for human prey, their teeth are spears and arrows, their tongues are a sharp sword.
The Labaim would certainly be an appropriate name for the royal bodyguards of King Labaya.
= = =
King Labaya and His Son and Habiru Compared to King Saul and Jonathan and David
Amarna Letter 254 from King Labaya to Pharaoh Akhen-aten:
Moreover, the king wrote about my son. I did not know that my son was consorting with the Habiru. I herewith hand him over to Addaya (the Egyptian commissioner).
I Samuel 20: 30-31
“Son of a rebellious slut! Do I not know that you side with the son of Jesse (i.e. David) to your own shame and your mother’s dishonour? As long as the son of Jesse lives on Earth, neither you nor your royal rights are secure.”
= =
The Philistines fight against Saul but David does not fight as a mercenary against Saul. (Saul is killed.)
Reporting the Death of Labaya
Amarna Letter 366 from Shuwardata to Pharaoh Akhen-aten
Let the king, my lord, be informed that the Habiru who was raised up against the lands;
the god of the king, my lord, delivered him to me, and I (king of Gath) have smitten him.
Rohl says the king of Gath had hired David as a mercenary.
= = =
Saul and Jonathan are killed but Saul had a surviving son named Ishbaal (Man of Baal in Hebrew language).
There is an Amarna Letter (256) from the surviving son of Labaya after his father and brother were killed.
His name was Mutbaal (Man of Baal in Canaanite language).
* * * *
So, did the redactors of the Hebrew Bible move the Saul-Philistines episode forward in time to (1010 – 970 BCE) to link to David?
We cannot really say that because Shishak has been identified as Ramesses the Great (1304 BCE to 1213 BCE). Before, Shishak was understood to have lived 926 BCE.
Again, this is where Rohl makes the royal Chronology of the Hebrews difficult. The chronology of the United Kingdom and the separate kingdoms of Judah and Israel also must move, let’s say 1200 BCE minus 926 BCE = 274 years.
* * * *
pick up at 50:55 of 57:50
Amarna Letter 256
Protestations of Innocence
How can it be said in your presence:
Mutbaal had fled. He has hidden Ayab?
As the king lives, I swear Ayab is not in Pella.
He has been in the field on campaign for two months.
Ask Benenima.
Ask Dadua.
Ask Yishuya.
Examination of Names
Mutbaal is Man of Baal is Ishbaal
Ayab is Ya is the Father is Joab
Benenima is Son of the Gods is probably Baanah
Yishuya is Ya Saves is Jesse
Dadua is The Beloved is David.
I am having trouble independently verifying any of Rohl’s claims.
19th century Egyptian heart scarab found in an archeological dig? Anyone besides Rohl ever seen or heard of this?
So the Bible mentions the exact way that a wall was built. Kudos. If that is what the picture shows that that is good news. The Bible author clearly could write the type of wall he could see. There is no reason to think a Solomon ever existed. A wall did. Someone attributed it to Solomon.
The rest is gish galloping. Maybe I will look at the rest if you can produce this Scarab from a reliable source.
Focus My View
I am having trouble independently verifying any of Rohl’s claims.
19th century Egyptian heart scarab found in an archeological dig? Anyone besides Rohl ever seen or heard of this?
So the Bible mentions the exact way that a wall was built. Kudos. If that is what the picture shows that that is good news. The Bible author clearly could write the type of wall he could see. There is no reason to think a Solomon ever existed. A wall did. Someone attributed it to Solomon.
The rest is gish galloping. Maybe I will look at the rest if you can produce this Scarab from a reliable source.
Steefen
Rohl has to do a better job. I am not convinced by the heart scarab. He simply needed to give evidence that children of pharaohs are buried with scarabs not with their name on them but with their father’s name on them.
The research I am doing for the second edition of my treatment of the Hebrew Bible is now closed. I am moving forward with putting my book together for review and publication.
I am all in on Saul and David being Armana letter period kings, really. I think the conquest in the bible really did happen and archeology agrees with it. Instead of tying it to Moses or any Bible timeline, the best place to start is the Aramean replacement of Amorites between 1700 and 1400 BC. This is what is told in Joshua 10 and Judges 1. The pushing out of Amorites, with Jerusalem as their last stronghold, full of Jebusites and Benjaminites. Genesis 14 reflects the Amorite presence as well.
I think the bible timeline has it wrong. ITs all about the Israelite tribe Jabesh-Gilead in Judges 21. They are exterminated in Judges, for the sake of the Benjaminites. But Saul saves the Jabesh-Gilead tribe in 1 Samuel 11. We could chalk this up to another story where people are exterminated only to not really have been exterminated. But that would be less exciting, and why would I be typing after midnight if not to make up something exciting? I would rather say that at least Saul, and possibly David, are from a much earlier time than the bible timeline. There are some missing kings and I have no idea who they might have been. Saul is ancient. He is from the Israelite tribes time period that included a Jabesh-Gilead and the Jebusites and Benjaminites hold Jerusalem.
Who are these Jebusites and Benjaminites? “Ezekiel says of Jerusalem, your mother was an Amorite and your father a Hittite.” Benjamin sounds very near what the word for “south bank” is in Amorite. The Benjaminites are the last of the Amorites, with Jerusalem as their stronghold. At some point they were attacked with incredible ferocity, so that that were nearly none left, probably those were Benjaminites outside of Jerusalem.
And now Jashar. When Saul’s story ends in the Bible, David mourns. 2 Samuel 1:18 (He ordered that The Song of the Bow be taught to the people of Judah; it is written in the Book of Jashar.)… The Joshua story of the Amorites being pushed out, Joshua 10 has the story of the Sun standing still, from the book of Jasher.
zedek, bezek thread.
Melchizedek in Genesis 14, Adonizedek in Joshua 10, and Adonibezek in Judges 1 are all about Amorites being beaten, and a oddly similar named king of Salem, Jerusalem, and unknown but taken to Jerusalem to die, respectively. This brings up Bezek of only Judges 1 and one other mention as a place name. Its in Samuel 11, where Saul beats the Ammonites instead of the Amorites.
Basically, the Deuteronomist names the source for his kings as they die. He mentions the Annals of King Solomon when Solomon dies. He mentions the Book of the annals of the kings of Judah when a Judahite king dies. He mentions the Annals of the Kings of Israel when an Israelite king dies. When Saul dies, he mentions the Book of Jashar. (I am unsure about a mention for David)
I think the Book of Jashar had the Aramean conquest of the Amorites written down, and the Deuteronomist preserved parts of that tale in his version where the Israelites kicked out not only the Amorites but the Canaanites and Perrizites and others. All these peoples were probably Amorite tribes or Aramean tribes. The real Israelites and Canaanites of 1400 BC, with Jabesh-Gilead (Judges 21) and Machir (Judges 5) as tribes, were Arameans too.
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