I can’t get over the first Christian presenter’s consistently calling Porphyry “PRO-fer”.
I have an old audiobook about the Bible where the narrator glides effortlessly over the german and other non-english scholarly references but completely murders the pronunciation of Bible type names in english.
Joe-see-PHAZ
Zuh-BEE-dee
Theo-FILE-us
O-RYE-gen
etc
It’s really funny. You could have a helluva drinking game. English as a second or third language anyone?
Yes, Steefen the consensus does change. But there’s never going to be a world where the book of Daniel wasn’t written in the Second Century.
Daniel is quoted five times (cf. Matt 24:30; 26:64; Mark 13:26; 14:62; Luke 21:27) and alluded to, or echoed, some 130 times.
Matt 24:30 – not convincing against Daniel 7:13
Matt 26:64 – not convincing against Daniel 7:13
Mark 13:26 – not convincing against Daniel 7:13
Mark 14:62 – not convincing against Daniel 7:13
Luke 21:27 – not convincing against Daniel 7:13
Daniel 7:13 says
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
In one instance, people on earth will see someone coming
In another instance, he is not approaching ground zero earth but he is approaching the Ancient of Days in a celestial/heavenly location.
See 2:56:25 of the debate: How would Daniel in 165 B.C.E. know what would happen to the Temple [in AD70]?
Jonathan Sheffield says the thought could have been the Seleucids would have been the destroyers of the Temple.
The Jews revolted against the Seleucids, hence, the prophecy: the Seleucids would have destroyed the Temple as payback.
Thank you for your opinion.
The temple cult will be ruined. It will be corrupted. It will be deserted.
There will be no Temple tourism to its city. The Jerusalem economy will lose its input from Temple tourism.
That does not change the conclusion reached: Daniel 9:26 is still prophetic.
Describe how the temple will be corrupted and desolate to fully articulate your position.
Also include Point 1: Yes or No, will the Anointed One be killed.
NET Bible
Now after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing. As for the city and the sanctuary, the people of the coming prince will destroy them.
The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.
NASB 1995
“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.
NIV
… the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[a] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.
The consensus of critical biblical scholars who produce bibles–the NET and the NIV–do not agree with you, Hartman, and Collins.
Besides, the city was not destroyed when Onias III was murdered.
“The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed [not defiled].”
It does not say, first, the sanctuary will be destroyed and then the city will be destroyed as a result of the sanctuary being defiled first.
= = =
According to Martin Hengel, Onias III was seen as too friendly to the Ptolemies by the Seleucid leadership to explain his replacement. Hengel is also skeptical of Jason of Cyrene and 2 Maccabees portraying Onias III as a devout Jew and his brother Jason as a Hellenizer: The fact Onias III retreated to the shrine of Apollo and Artemis at Daphne suggests he was not as zealous for keeping Jewish law as 2 Maccabees would suggest.
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The Anointed One or even an anointed one should not be retreating to non-Jewish shrines–to do so cancels out his anointing, it disqualifies him. Your attempt at historical context fails on integrity. It is not persuasive, it is not convincing.
So you want to swing an anointed one from Jesus to Onias III? You weaken the connection of the Book of Daniel to Jesus.
You have a Jesus who does not give credit to the Qumran community but uses their terms like new covenant. Now you have a Jesus who also does not mention Onias III as his inspiration.
So you’re saying Jesus was not taught or self-taught the contents of the Book of Daniel and made no true references to that book? It’s just thousands of years of Christian interpretation?
That is not going to stand.
Furthermore, your blaming thousands of years of Christian interpretation claim–“the Hebrew does not say that” is in error as evidenced by this Rabbi NOT using a different translation.
The verse ends with the words,
“The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed by the prince (the anti-christ) who is coming. The end will come about in a flood (with haste) and until the end of war and the desolation is determined.”
Daniel 9:26b
From this sentence we learn the most important point in regard to the calculation of the timing of these events. The main conclusion which can be derived is that Messiah must come and redeem humanity by offering up His life prior to the destruction of the Second Temple. It has already been said that the Second Temple was destroyed in approximately 68 AD. Therefore, Daniel is revealing that the Messiah Who offered up His life to do the work of redemption had to come and make this sacrifice prior to 68 AD.
In the next article, G-d willing, we will investigate the relationship between the second half of Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 9:27.
Author: Rabbi Baruch
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And here is another rabbi at a Jewish source using destruction, not something less, claimed by you in error.
26) Then after the sixty-two weeks (483 years from the destruction of the First Temple) an anointed one (sacrifices, last Jewish priest and king) will be cut off and will be no more, and the people of the prince (Romans) who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. (in the 70th week 490 years from the destruction of the First Temple)
This is a brief explanation of Daniel chapter 9. Any attempt to apply this chapter to Jesus is erroneous and wrought with mistranslations and misinterpretations.
Written and compiled by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz
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Then you go on to disrespect the reputation of Daniel by implying Onias III’s display of a lack of courage and a lack of trust in his own religion by retreating to Apollo and Artemis is a subject matter worthy of Jewish prophecy. The Book of Daniel cannot be canonized into the TANAK by making something of Onias III.
Religious integrity is not necessary for the Hebrew Bible to have coherence is an erroneous statement.
You and your scholars have something to discuss because of the integrity of the TANAK. Moral/religious integrity found in history does not mean that was the intent or subject matter of scripture.
And yes, Jesus fails to credit the culture of the people associated with the Qumran scrolls. The most he does is get baptized by John the Baptist and allow some of the Baptist’s disciples to be his disciples. Jesus speaks of the scriptures but not of writings that held together an earlier Teacher and the covenant that bound them together as children of light.
Make up your mind: Daniel is referring to Onias III or he’s not. Daniel is referring to Jesus or he’s not.
Whomever is Daniel’s reference, Jesus and Daniel are both apocalyptic. The authors of the gospels have made that very clear.
Daniel knew nothing of Jesus?
Why not say that for Moses, too?
Why not say that for Isaiah, too?
There is no prophecy pointing to Jesus–is that your point?
Jesus fulfilled no prophecies, not one?
Correct. They didn’t, and he didn’t. I don’t see any plausible way to hold that they actually foresaw and foretold Jesus.
Delphic oracle, most famous ancient oracle, believed to deliver prophecies from the Greek god Apollo. She was based in his temple at Delphi, located on the slopes of Mt. Parnassus above the Corinthian Gulf
What, Porphry, there were no accurate prophecies from Delphi? How about from Dodona?
Allow the evidence from Delphi and Dodna but allow no prophecies in Hebrew culture?
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