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The Jeremiah Failed Prophecy Needed to Be Rescued? Daniel Is a Forgery? ? ?
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Steefen
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February 25, 2024 - 6:21 pm

Prophesizing in China appeared before the 3rd century B.C., prevailed in the Qin (221-206 B.C.) and Han dynasties (202 B.C.-A.D. 220), and declined following the end of the Tang dynasty. However, the practice of prophecy remains part of Chinese culture today.

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Steefen
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February 25, 2024 - 6:22 pm

Prophesizing in China appeared before the 3rd century B.C., prevailed in the Qin (221-206 B.C.) and Han dynasties (202 B.C.-A.D. 220), and declined following the end of the Tang dynasty. However, the practice of prophecy remains part of Chinese culture today.

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Steefen
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February 25, 2024 - 6:26 pm

Prophesizing in China appeared before the 3rd century BC
prevailed in the Qin (221-206 BC) and Han Dynasties (202 BC – AD 220

Source: Library of Congress

Mysticism and Prophecy in “Tui bei tu” 推背圖 (Back-pushing Pictures)

April 19, 2021

Posted by: Anchi Hoh

“Tui bei tu” 推背圖 (Back-pushing Pictures), or “Tui bei quan tu” 推背全圖 (A Complete Collection of Back-pushing Pictures), is a compilation of prophetic revelations allegedly created by Yuan Tiangang (573-645) and Li Chunfeng (602-670), two prominent astronomer-astrologers active in the Sui (581-618) and Tang dynasties (618-907). The legend goes that Li focused so much on predicting the future that he simply could not stop. Trying to persuade Li into taking a rest, Yuan pushed his back and said, “We cannot afford to reveal more of Heaven’s secrets. Let’s go to sleep.” And thus came the title, “Back-pushing Pictures.” The book has been considered for centuries as one of the most renowned works of Chinese mysticism, the closest Western equivalent of which would be “Les Prophéties,” or “The Prophecies,” by the 16th-century French prognosticator Nostradamus.

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Robert
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February 26, 2024 - 12:26 pm
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Steefen
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February 26, 2024 - 10:57 pm

As usual we disagree.

Here is Daniel 9 in Hebrew and English
Daniel – Hebrew English Translation Massoretic Text

** you do not have permission to see this link **

See Daniel Chapter 9, verse 26.

Also see this Daniel 9 in Hebrew posted by The Word in Hebrew at video time: 55: 53 to 56:45

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Steefen
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February 26, 2024 - 11:30 pm

** you do not have permission to see this link **

26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

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Steefen
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February 26, 2024 - 11:39 pm

During a period of anti-Hellenism, Onias III turns to Apollo and Artemis, still the Maccabee wants Onias III to be an anointed one in Hebrew scripture. You have to add something to that for it to be persuasive.

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Robert
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February 27, 2024 - 6:31 am
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Steefen
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February 27, 2024 - 7:05 pm

Correction to Post #2

Daniel predicted the First Jewish-Roman Was?

Sally Ann McAllister, M.Div.
History confirms that the terrifying beasts of Daniel 7
represent four kingdoms:

1) Babylon,
2) Medo-Persia
3) Greece, and
4) Rome.

SHOULD BE

Daniel predicted the First Jewish-Roman War?

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Steefen
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February 27, 2024 - 7:23 pm

Robert:
If one reads the text in Hebrew and in its historical context, it is not talking about the city and temple being destroyed but the temple cult being ruined, corrupted, made into a desolation. Most English translations are influenced by thousands of years of Christian interpretation, but a good commentary will help you out here.

Steefen:
This is incorrect.

If one reads the Hebrew TANAK translated into English, it is talking about the city and temple being destroyed.
Hebrew TANAK translations are NOT influenced by thousands of years of Christian interpretation.

Second, Daniel 9:26 speaks of
1) someone anointed being killed
2) the city being destroyed
3) the Temple being destroyed

Jews and Christians both agree that the city and the Temple were destroyed during the Jewish Revolt, Civil War, and when the Romans came to re-establish peace disturbed by

1) the successful rebel attack on Legion Fulminata XII
2) the Jewish civil war of fighting rebel factions after a wrongful assumption independence had been won after successfully attacking one legion of Rome, and
3) won the war not one battle with one legion.

Daniel was not written when the gospel of Mark was written. Hence a case claiming

1) someone anointed was killed
2) the city was not destroyed but made desolate with the Temple first being made desolate
3) the Temple was not destroyed but made desolate by corruption

Fails.

When and How Long was the Temple desolate after the death of Onias III?
At least try to make something of this failing assertion better.

You will not be able to convince anyone that Hebrew to English translations of Daniel 9:26 use the word destroy for City and Temple because of Christian interpretation.

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Robert
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February 27, 2024 - 8:02 pm
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Steefen
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February 27, 2024 - 10:03 pm

Robert
Jewish interpretations will also try to interpret Daniel as actual prophecy, rather than

The author of the book of Daniel knew nothing of the destruction of the Temple by Rome over 200 years later.

Steefen
You’re against prophecy then you open the door to prophecy.
Can you hold a consistent position?

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Robert
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February 27, 2024 - 10:10 pm
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Steefen
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February 27, 2024 - 10:34 pm

You have had a chance to make your case.
Your case is insufficient and flawed.
Significant points I raised–you didn’t rise to the occasion.
I cannot even use my editorial skills to make your argument useful.

Daniel is considered a prophet in Christianity, and although he is not mentioned in the Quran, Muslim sources describe him as a prophet.

Robert
Jewish interpretations will also try to interpret Daniel as actual prophecy

Daniel is not a prophet in Judaism: prophecy is reckoned to have ended with Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.[7] In the Hebrew Bible his book is not included under the Prophets (the Hebrew Bible has three sections, Torah, Prophets and Writings), but nevertheless the eight copies found among the Dead Sea Scrolls and the additional tales of the Greek text are a testament to Daniel’s popularity in ancient times.[21]

The Jewish rabbis of the first millennium CE reckoned Daniel to be the most distinguished member of the Babylonian diaspora, unsurpassed in piety and good deeds…

Steefen
Daniel is not a prophet in Judaism, but you say Jewish interpretations will try [to interpret the contents of the Book of Daniel as prophecy).

Google:
In the Book of Daniel, Daniel reads in the “books” that the desolation of Jerusalem must last for seventy years according to the prophetic words of Jeremiah

Steefen
If you agree Daniel is apocalyptic literature and the future apocalypse didn’t happen, it is foretelling a future.

The gospel authors use a portion of one of Daniel’s visions as a Jesus prophecy: I see one like a son of man coming on the clouds–with Jesus saying you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

Jesus’ Daniel vision turned prophecy failed.

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Robert
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February 27, 2024 - 10:57 pm
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Steefen
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February 28, 2024 - 11:48 pm

So you disagree that the Book of Daniel is apocalyptic?
That’s the point.

Everyone knows The Book of Daniel certainly is apocalyptic. That is not a personal claim of mine.

Britannica

Like the prophets before them, the apocalyptists saw in the working out of history, which they divided into well-defined periods, a purpose and a goal. The evil in the world might lead men to despair, but God’s predetermined purpose could not be frustrated. A future age of righteousness would replace the present age of ungodliness, fulfilling God’s purpose. This literature, then, is a mixture of pessimism—times would become worse and worse, and God would destroy this present evil world—and of optimism—out of turmoil and confusion God would bring in his kingdom, the goal of history.

Daniel and Jesus did try to foretell the future.
Daniel got the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary right but what all the apocalyptic figures got wrong was the optimistic future. Jewish Apocalypticism is a failed prophecy and a failed hypothesis.

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Robert
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February 29, 2024 - 12:09 am
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Steefen
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March 1, 2024 - 1:25 am

Steefen
If you agree Daniel is apocalyptic literature and the future apocalypse didn’t happen, it is foretelling a future.

Robert
See, you’re the one claiming that Daniel is foretelling a future, not me.

So you do agree Daniel is apocalyptic.
So you do agree Daniel is saying how the future is supposed to play out.
So I’m not the only one saying Daniel is foretelling a future.
There is nothing crazy or misinterpreted here.

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Robert
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March 1, 2024 - 6:13 am
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Steefen
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March 2, 2024 - 12:21 am

Dr. Tabor does not see Onias III as the Righteous Teacher, so take that off the table.

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