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I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white garments that thou mayest be arrayed, and the shame of thy nakedness may not be manifest, and with eye-salve anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich; and white robes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen; and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
take my advice and buy gold from me refined by fire so you can become rich! Buy from me white clothing so you can be clothed and your shameful nakedness will not be exposed, and buy eye salve to put on your eyes so you can see!
Ammon Hillman:
Jesus Christ counsels you to christ your eyes so you may see.
There’s a difference between reading the Septuagint in Ancient Greek and reading scripture in English.
There is a value-added in knowing the Bible in Ancient Greek.
Steefen:
Yes, people in the field with their Master’s and PhDs take courses and deliver courses in Ancient Greek.
A monist is an advocate or supporter of monism, the philosophical view that all of reality, substance, or mind-body experience consists of a single unifying principle or substance rather than multiple independent parts.
The above comes from 0 to 50 minutes of the video.
Who’s funnier, Ehrman or Hillman?
Ehrman laughs alot.
Hillman’s sense of humor makes sense.
Enter Neal Sendlek.
The grape harvesters who worshipped Bacchus use to scream “Yah” until Theodosius outlawed it.
= = =
… Mycenaen Linear B ….
= = = =
Neal:
Iakchos [Yahchos], the light-bringing star of the nocturnal mysteries.
Iakchos is Bacchus.
Iasio
Dionysus/Bacchus was called by the Chaleans, “Iao”/”Sabaoth”.
Iota is a magic wand.
Dionysus and Apollo are the same god as Achromius tells us 58:25 of the video.
Plutarch was the student of Amonius.
Plutarch was a student of Ammonius of Athens, a prominent philosopher and scholar.
Iaios
Jesus’ name starts with Ia [Ye/Yay] it has to do with healing, drugs, and purple. I have the sources.
Ia/Ya is an exclamation of joy or grief. Yay! goes back to this.
Dionysus is Wawacos.
Yah is purple, healing, a drug, or arrow.
The Apocalypse isn’t only Jewish it is Orphic, coming from Orpheus.
I’m using Hezekius’ Lexicon.
The Lexicon of Hesychius: In historical literature and linguistics, the Lexicon of Hesychius (sometimes mistranslated or searched as Exekias or Ezekias) is a famous 5th-century AD Greek dictionary containing over 51,000 entries. It is one of the richest surviving collections of obscure ancient Greek words, dialects, and poetic expressions.
1: 15: 43
Ammon and Neal
Neal:
Yahweh is not from Ugarit. He is not a Canaanite god.
Steefen:
Title of this thread.
Neal:
The leading theory is that he comes from the Midianites.
We dug up Median.
Pottery
Midianite pottery, also called Qurayyah Painted Ware (QPW), is found at numerous sites stretching from the southern Levant to NW Saudi Arabia, the Hejaz; Qurayyah in NW Saudi Arabia is thought to be its original location of manufacture.[22] The pottery is bichrome / polychrome style and it dates as early as the 13th century BC; its many geometric, human, and animal motifs are painted in browns and dark reds on a pinkish-tan slip. “Midianite” pottery is found in its largest quantities at metallurgical sites in the southern Levant, especially Timna.[23] Because of the Mycenaean motifs on Midianite pottery, some scholars including George Mendenhall,[24] Peter Parr,[25] and Beno Rothenberg[26] have suggested that the Midianites were originally Sea Peoples who migrated from the Aegean region and imposed themselves on a pre-existing Semitic stratum. The question of the origin of the Midianites still remains open.[citation needed]
– Wikipedia entry for Median
So. after Neal goes through so many iterations of Yah as in Yahweh, he connects Yah in pre-Hellenistic Greek to the Midianites.
He uses his deep dive into Yakcho and Yahweh and other first syllable/root to connect Yahweh to pre-Hellenistic Greece.
Neal use pottery from archaeology to connect Yahweh to pre-Hellenistic Greece.
And he uses what he explains from 1 hour 25 minutes to 1 hour 39 minutes and 5 seconds.
On my first watching of this presentation, I was wowed. The three parts of his case cannot each stand alone. It was worth hearing. @Robert it was not nonsense worthy of dismissal. There was much interesting information along his layout of his 3-part presentation.
Maybe by tomorrow night, I can concentrate on the 1 hour 25 minutes to 1 hour 39 minutes and 5 seconds.
Tenured professors do not have to agree with a PhD student’s thesis to supervise it, approve its submission, or participate in awarding the degree. But there are important distinctions.
A professor supervising a doctoral dissertation might:
-
Disagree with the thesis but recognize that it is a defensible, well-researched argument.
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Challenge the evidence and methodology while helping the student strengthen the argument.
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Accept an unconventional hypothesis if the student demonstrates that it is supported by evidence and engages fairly with competing explanations.
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Require revisions because the argument is inadequately supported, even if the professor considers the hypothesis plausible.
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Decline to approve the dissertation if it fails to meet the institution’s academic standards.
= = =
And that’s the fault I find in @Robert, @Judith, and @BJH1960. Trashing the thread without constructive criticism. It was posted for constructive discussion not quick dismissal, high school psychobabble from Judith, etc.
And if it’s not interesting to you, still it is Ammon with a PhD and a very well-read Neal sharing a discussion for the edification of those interested in the topic.
I found it as an interesting FYI and a “possibly there’s a there” in what they are saying.
And if not, give a rational reason why. If it is so easily dismissed, easily say why, your reasoning against it.
There are some points I would not judge to publish in one of my publications. And as shown above, every thesis advisor agrees with is proposed for a thesis paper. For example, Pre-Hellenistic motifs on pottery in Southern Levant does not fully explain what’s going on with the first syllable of Yahweh, Yahshua or whatever, Yah screams/yells, Bacchus, Dionysus, and Apollo. And later in the analysis was there a corruption from pre-hellenistic Greece to Median. Answer: maybe IF Yahweh is traceable back to Dionysus in Pre-Hellenistic Greece.
Steefen said:
And that’s the fault I find in ** you do not have permission to see this link **. Trashing the thread without constructive criticism. It was posted for constructive discussion not quick dismissal, high school psychobabble from Judith, etc.
Why do you insist on such slights? If you’re interested in constructive criticism, wouldn’t it be better not to denigrate those you are expecting it from?
It would also help if you formulated a coherent argument that they could examine. What exactly is the argument in your own words? What evidence is there to support it?
If I understand you correctly, at least one of the things you’re saying is that the similarities between Yahwism and Greek cultic practices show Yahwism derived from these practices.
Although similarities alone cannot prove common origin, let’s for a moment assume they can. Wouldn’t that mean that the much closer similarities between Yahwism and Near Eastern cultic practices show it actually derived from them?
Stephen said:
Sorry but I prefer to consult actual scholars in the field of inquiry over YouTube Nabobs.
The current scholarly thinking is that Yahweh originated outside of Canaan, and is linked to nomadic groups in the southern desert regions like the Sinai Peninsula. The earliest written references to the name appear in Late Bronze Age texts from the reigns of Amenhotep III and Ramses II. These texts refer to the “Shasu of Yahweh,” nomadic groups in northwestern Arabia and the Transjordan.
What appears to have happened is that as these groups migrated into Canaan, Yahweh was integrated into the regional pantheon associated with El, the High Canaanite god. Yahweh absorbed traits from indigenous deities like Baal. In the Iron Age, Yahweh mutated from a localized war/storm deity into the exclusive god of Israel/Samaria/Judah.
If Neal disagrees then his argument is not with me but with Smith, Lewis et al.
The Midianites flourished during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (14th to 11th centuries BCE). Their disappearance from the historical record predates Classical Greek civilization by centuries!
You should not only be congratulated for your 5000th post but also for your use of nabob, which is a delightful word, and one which I could happily say all the day long.
Yes, seek out scholars and scorn nabobs.
This lack of respect for people who have expertise is just beyond the pale.
We had a lot of plumbing done on Wednesday, and just in the nick of time as we live in an old building and the pipes were about to burst. The guy was methodical beyond compare using his experience and imagination to figure out how to solve what at times seemed intractable problems. He was a wonder to behold. But perhaps I made a mistake and should have sought out someone with elaborate theories about water flow who had never fixed a leaky faucet in their life.
Comment 42
Neal goes through so many iterations of Yah as in Yahweh connecting connecting Yah to pre-Hellenistic Greece.
He uses his deep dive into Yakcho and Yahweh and other first syllable/root to connect Yahweh to pre-Hellenistic and Hellenistic Greece.
Neal use pottery from Medianite archaeology to connect Yahweh to pre-Hellenistic Greece.
He connects Sukkot to Thesmophoria.
Neal Sendlek says, referencing Celsus who implies Sukkot is a corruption of the Thesmophoria and that Christianity is not without guilt for corrupting Greek rites.
1 hr 27 mins 45 seconds
Neal:
Yahwism is a corruption of Ancient Greek rites–[Neal also mentions some Ancient Greek cults.]
Steefen reacting to this,
reacting to Celsus and and Neal Sendlek: “Wow, Yahwism is a corruption of Ancient Greek cults.”
stopping at 1:28:48
Steefen:
Robert, BJH1960, Judith,
You disagree with Celsus?
Maybe you do, maybe you don’t.
You disagree with the similarities between Thesmophoria and Sukkot?
Maybe you have a persuasive reason to agree or disagree with Neal and Celsus.
@1:30:35: “I’m literally just an idiot. I’m an amateur. I’m not an Egyptologist. I have no idea what I’m talking about.”
That’s refreshing. At least he knows he is. Most don’t.*
What isn’t refreshing, however, is realizing that your points (Post 45) and mine (Post 44) were not addressed.
Steefen has a quite unique perspective on constructive criticism: ignoring it.
*One wonders if the first step in recovery isn’t admitting that one is. “My name is Neal, and I am an idiot.”
I find this tendency to trace everything back to the Greeks fascinating. Not just here but Mythicism and some NT studies are possessed of an incipient Grecophilia. They draw the wrong lesson from Hellenism I think. Actually if you go back far enough the ANE influence on what we anachronistically call “Greece” was much greater than the reverse. And the idea of the mysterious “Sea Peoples” has provided fodder for much fantasy.
Dr. Bart Ehrman,
I found this:
“Celsus argued in The True Word (Alēthēs Logos), preserved in Origen’s Against Celsus, that Jewish religion represented a departure from, and distortion of, an ancient religious tradition shared by other peoples, including the Greeks. He compared Jewish beliefs and practices with older traditions of worship and mystery cults, challenging the Jews’ claim to religious originality.” There is a comparison of Sukkot to the Thesmophoria of Ancient Greece.
Have you posted about anything in Origen’s Against Celsus. I’m interested in this. Administrators and members of the forum have reached their limits, so I thought with your background, and for reason, you are no longer a Christian, you would have a scholarly opinion on Celsus’ arguments.
Any thoughts?
Thank you.
BJH1960 said
Stephen said:
Actually if you go back far enough the ANE influence on what we anachronistically call “Greece” was much greater than the reverse.More on this, please.
Surely.
Here is a ** you do not have permission to see this link ** on the subject.
And what is probably the best ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
After the so-called Bronze Age “collapse” there was a Dark Age in Ancient Greece that lasted damn near five hundred years. One of the reasons that Greece was able to revitalize its own culture was the influx of culture from the ANE. Culture, like nature, abhors a vacuum. This has come to be known by historians as the “Orientalizing Period”.
The Greeks adopted the Phoenician writing system. They adapted it, added vowels, and created their own alphabet This is what ultimately made Homer and all that philosophy and literature possible. Material culture was affected as well. Migrant Syrians brought advanced metalworking, ivory carving, and gem-cutting techniques to Greece. Many components of later Greek mythology and religion clearly parallel older Mesopotamian templates. A good example is Hesiod’s Theogony which was clearly informed by Hittite and Babylonian myths. Prof Burkert demonstrates that much of their religious practice was adopted from ANE rituals and divination ceremonies. Images of Greek gods owe much to Mesopotamian iconography.
But let’s give the Greeks their due credit. They didn’t simply mimic these imports. They digested these influences and made them their own. They reimagined them to fit their own ideas of what should be. People complain now about something called “cultural appropriation” but for the vast length of human history that’s exactly how culture spread. Purism is death.
I remember a quote from John Lennon sometime in the 60s during the Beatles’ heyday. “Before Elvis there was nothing.” I think I know what he meant even though of course he was wrong (and probably knew it.) Due to generations of Classicists you get the impression that before Greece there was nothing. But that is also completely wrong.
36 ratings averaging 4.5 stars
It has always been regarded as the great apologetic work of antiquity; and no one can peruse it without being struck by the multifarious reading, wonderful acuteness, and rare subtlety of mind that it displays. It well deserves the notice of the students of Apologetics and of Early Christianity in general. This new edition features revised notes, a revised introduction, and a freshly-typeset text.
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It has always been regarded as the great apologetic work of antiquity; and no one can peruse it without being struck by the multifarious reading, wonderful acuteness, and rare subtlety of mind that it displays. It well deserves the notice of the students of Apologetics and of Early Christianity in general. This new edition features revised notes, a revised introduction, and a freshly-typeset text.
I haven’t seen this edition. The classic translation is probably still from ** you do not have permission to see this link ** as part of their Classics of Western Spirituality series is well worth a look too. It’s funny to read Celsus make pretty much the same case against Christianity that skeptics have been making ever since. And its even funnier in a rueful sort of way to observe that as able a response as Origen was able to make against Celsus and other pagan critics his own church excommunicated him as quickly as they were able. Origen was too smart for everybody!
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