What are 2 of the strongest lines of argument/ evidence in support of the belief that the book of Hebrews was originally written in Greek?
What do you make of the transliterations + translations present in the Greek New Testament Hebrews 7:1-2?
transliterations + translations: Hebrews 7:1-2
an extract of
Special Features of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament
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The bottom line is that in the original Aramaic for Hebrews 7:1-2, “Mlki-Zdq” got expounded as the partially-similar “Mlka d’Kanutha,” while in contrast,
the Greek version has the transliteration “Melchisedek,” which it translates as the very-dissimilar “basileus dikaiosyne.”
Also, in the original Aramaic, “Mlk Shlim” was expounded as the largely similar “Mlka d’Shlma,” while in contrast,
the Greek version has the part-translation, part-transliteration “basileus Salem,” which it fully-translates as “basileus eirene.”
We start with some Aramaic vocabulary.
Mlki-Zdq — King-Righteous, i.e. “Righteous King,” or: “King (of) Righteousness” [could it be ‘my righteous king’?]
(Incidentally, “zadiqa” means “righteous/ just, a righteous/ just man,” and “Zaduqia” are Sadducees.)
Mlk-Shlim — king (of) peace
d’mlka — of the kings
Mlka-d’Kanutha — king of righteousness
Mlk-Shlim — king (of) peace
Mlka-d’Shlma — king of peace
Hebrews 7:1-2 (based on Etheridge + Khabouris, from ** you do not have permission to see this link **)
1. For this Mlki-Zdq is Mlk-Shlim, the priest of Allaha the Most High.
And he met Abraham when he returned from the slaughter d’mlka [of the kings], and blessed him.
2. And to him Abraham separated the tenth from everything that he had with him.
Now his name, being expounded, (is) the Mlka-d’Kanutha;
and again, Mlk-Shlim, which is, Mlka-d’Shlma.
Note how in the original Aramaic, there’s 6 instances of “mlk”/king, and 3 instances of words having the letters “shlm”/ peace, as the author of Hebrews expresses things slightly differently (in different Aramaic dialects?).
We now take a look at the Greek transliterations and translations of the passage.
Hebrews 7:1-2 (hybrid of DLNT + MOUNCE; the bracketed “his name” is the DLNT’s)
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For this Melchisedek [Melchizedek], basileus-Salem [king _of_ Salem], priest _of_ the Most-High God, remains _a_ priest perpetually–
the _one_ having met Abraham returning from the defeat _of_ the basileus [kings] and having eulogeo [blessed] him;
_to_ whom also Abraham divided dekatos [_a_ tenth] from everything;
_who is_ first ([his name] hermeneuo [being translated]), basileus-dikaiosyne [king _of_ righteousness];
and then also basileus-Salem [king _of_ Salem], which is basileus-eirene [king _of_ peace];
transliterations of the Greek transliterations:
Melchisedek: 1 instance
Salem: 2 instances
transliterations of the Greek translations:
basileus (5 instances; translates the Aramaic mlk/ ‘king’)
dikaiosyne (translates the Aramaic d’kanutha/ ‘of righteousness’)
eirene (1 instance; translates the Aramaic shlma/ ‘peace’)
embarrassingly having Melchizedek be eternally-existent in Hebrews 7:2-3
Greek manuscripts erroneously have Melchizedek being eternally-existent and immortal:
Hebrews 7:2-3 NIV
. . . .First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”;
then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.”
Without father or mother,
without genealogy,
without beginning of days or end of life,
resembling the Son of God,
he remains a priest forever.
The original Aramaic has a more sensible reading.
Murdock
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Of whom neither his father nor his mother are written in the genealogies;
nor the commencement of his days,
nor the end of his life;
but, after the likeness of the Son of God,
his priesthood remaineth for ever.
@David
(You were pondering)
post#313
Did the Greek 1 Peter 2:7 get its Ps 118:22 quotation from the:
Masoretic?
LXX?
Yes. It looks that way to me. I just looked at my Greek texts: NA28 (1 Peter 2:7) and LXX (Psalm 117:22)
and it’s word for word, letter for letter, (the LXX is not always the same chapter number as a KJV) hence it’s one less here.
NA28 ISBN 978-1-4335-3031-9
LXX ISBN 978-0-913573-44-0
Is the Masoreic-English translation different or conflicting somehow? All I’m mostly considering is that the LXX was completed several centuries before the Masoreic was completed.
Looks like both Koine Greek and the new super-rabbi script alphabet had big problems in places, and had to both simultaneously UPDATE by including diacritics to clarify words and phrases here and there wherever necessary.
In 1 Peter 2:8 and Isaiah 8:14 the discrepancy is just rewording it from the negative (not) into a positive.
I think 🤷♂️
Help translating Corinthians 9:1 Κοινη
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For 1 Cor 9:1, the Peshitta has
m-r-n: our Lord/ Master
b’m-r-i: in my Lord/ Master.
There’s no mention in the verse of m-r-y-a: Master YHWH
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Peshitta tool, EBV Dutch Peshitta with footnotes
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1Corinthians 9:1 – Ben ik geen vrij man? Ben ik geen apostel? Heb ik niet onze Here Jezus Christus gezien? Zijn jullie niet mijn werk in mijn Heer?
vrij man – letterlijk: ‘zoon van de vrijheid’ in de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Ben ik niet vrij?’
onze Here Jezus Christus – dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse MHT en TR luidt: Jezus Christus, onze Heer’. De lezing van de Griekse NA28 luidt: ‘Jezus, onze Heer’.
in mijn Heer – dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘in de Heer’.
google translate:
1Corinthians 9:1 – Am I not a free man? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen our Lord Jesus Christ? Are you not my work in my Lord?
free man – literally: ‘son of freedom’ in the Aramaic Peshitta reading. The Greek NA28, MHT and TR reading is: ‘Am I not free?’
our Lord Jesus Christ – this is the Aramaic Peshitta reading. The Greek MHT and TR reading is: ‘Jesus Christ our Lord’. The Greek NA28 reading is: ‘Jesus our Lord’.
in my Lord – this is the Aramaic Peshitta reading. The Greek NA28, MHT and TR reading is: ‘in the Lord’.
Thanks David Ford,
I’m looking into the word εστε because it has a different meaning as a Conjunction rather than as a Verb.
In the Doric dialect it has the usage as being a Conjunction. Since that Corinth spoke the Doric dialect; that’s the whole reason.
εστε εν κυριω
Codex Vaticanus has κυριω in the Nomina Sacra, ΚΩ. I left the hyperlink and location info on the original post.
Ok, but there’s not a τω Definite Article for the dative case τω κυριω;
so I don’t understand why they’re translating “the” into it all. There’s “a” there instead of “the”. 🤷♂️
Not a big deal really. I’m just being picky.
“εστε εν κυριω …
why they’re translating ‘the’ into it all. There’s ‘a’ there instead of ‘the'”
Maybe translators supply a bracketed “[the]” because while Greek has a word for “the,” in that particular location, the Greek NT lacks a “the,” and the sentence reads poorly in English without a translator-supplied “[the].”
1 Cor 9:1
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… 4771
hymeis
ὑμεῖς
you
1510
este
ἐστε
are
1722
en
ἐν
in
2962
Kyriō
Κυρίῳ
[the] Lord
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“Who wrote this? Titus?
Titus was a Greek. Galatians 2:3″
Actually, he was Aramean.
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Galatians 2:3 – Maar zelfs Titus, die bij mij was en Arameeër is, werd niet gedwongen om zich te laten besnijden.
Arameeër – dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Griek’.
google translate:
Galatians 2:3 – But even Titus, who was with me, an Aramean, was not compelled to be circumcised.
Aramean – this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is: ‘Greek’.
When the Aramaic NT got translated into Greek, references to Arameans got turned into references to Greeks.
This resulted in at-least 1 internal contradiction in the Greek NT translation.
“Greek is someone who speaks Greek and is not a Jew”
Do you think the woman mentioned below:
wasn’t a Jew?
spoke Greek?
was a Canaanite?
Mark 7 (NIV)
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25 In fact, as soon as she heard about him [Jesus],
a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet.
26 The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia.
She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
Mark 7:26 (Peshitta Holy Bible)
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But she was a pagan woman from Phoenicia of Syria,
and she was begging him to cast out the demon from her daughter.
Matthew 15 (Berean Standard)
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21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came to Him, crying out,
“Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me!
My daughter is miserably possessed by a demon.”
I would say that everyone mentioned in those verses is a slave of the Roman Empire at the time like everyone else who didn’t have Roman citizenship but lived inside the Roman Empire.
Gentiles would be the simplest way to categorize it, since the woman are not Jewish.
Greek and pagan would be synonymous in that context because Jews are not pagans.
Roman slave, gentile, Greek.
“everyone mentioned in those verses is a slave of the Roman Empire at the time like everyone else who didn’t have Roman citizenship but lived inside the Roman Empire”
So Jesus was “a slave of the Roman Empire”?
“Greek and pagan would be synonymous in that context”
Is ‘Greek and Roman’ “synonymous in that context”?
Is ‘Greek and Syro-Phoenician’ “synonymous in that context”?
Is ‘Greek and Canaanite’ “synonymous in that context”?
I think at the time there was a legal process called Manumission where a slave was freed but still have restrictions such as not being able to participate in politics. However, their offspring born afterwards, after the manumission process, did the full rights of a citizen. This is where our English word of Liberty comes from. The Jews were required to pay a Temple Tax which was for both the Second Temple and some of it went to Rome. They surely were not what is now called a sovereign nation. The Greek Empire was long gone at that time. They were now subjects under the Roman Empire as well like Judea was.
My first definition based on the Little Liddell definition was that anyone who spoke Greek and wasn’t Jewish was considered to be Greek by other Greeks. 🤷♂️https://logeion.uchicago.edu/%E1%BC%9D%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD
Greek and Jew: NO
Greek and Roman: NO
Greek and Egyptian: NO
Greek and Persian: NO
Jew and Pagan: NO
Jew and Gentile: NO
Later on,
Jew and Christian: NO
The other location details will not fit into that simple category system.
Paul writes about that way of thinking and racial Caste system in Galatians 3:28.
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“racial Caste system”
Could someone convert to Judaism and thereby become a Jew?
Could someone pay enough money to become a Roman?
“Later on,
Jew and Christian: NO”
Was there any point at which a ‘true Jew’ was a Christian?
Revelation 3:9
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I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews [no, Yehudians/ Judeans: 2453 Ioudaious Ἰουδαίους] though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.”
Yes, all those were possible.
The Roman Empire later on ratified a lot of laws regarding the Jews, Christians, Pagans, Apostates, Manumission by the Church.
It was all later on consolidated into a coherent constitution by Emperor Justinian during the 6th century AD. All those laws and ways of life probably varied throughout the centuries leading up to Holy Roman Empire. ** you do not have permission to see this link **
These laws, the Code of Justinian, to me anyways, were an interesting and significant insight into Early Christianity.
I liked the one where everyone who isn’t Catholic was considered to be demented and insane. For the Greek pagans that would be demonic possession. So everyone who still religiously practicing the Ancient Greek and Roman paganism rituals was demon possessed. Thus, the Catholic Church has its history with exorcisms and such things. Nowadays there’s a few people like Dr Ammon Hillman who’ve had several exorcisms performed on themself. He’s big into the Ancient Greek pagan languages and then applies to the NT κοινη; which that is where the mistake occurs.
“Little Liddell definition was that anyone who spoke Greek and wasn’t Jewish was considered to be Greek by other Greeks”
Did people into Judaism have that same conception of what a “Greek” was?
Do you presently think that Titus was a:
Greek?
Aramean?
Do you presently think that the Syro-Phoenician woman who came to Jesus for help about her demon-influenced daughter was:
Greek?
Aramean?
Do you think Galatians 3:28 originally had:
Greek?
Aramean?
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Galatians 3:28 – Er is (daarin) geen Jood of Arameeër, geen slaaf of vrije, geen mannelijk of vrouwelijk, want jullie zijn allen één in Jezus Christus.
Arameeër – dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Griek’. Alle 22 keren dat wij in de Aramese Peshitta het woord ‘Arameeër’ lezen, lezen wij in het Griekse NT ‘Griek’ of ‘Grieks’, behalve in Lk. 4:27 waar ‘Arameeër’, niet als ‘Griek’, maar als ‘Syriër’ wordt vertaald, wat een correcte vertaling is, want Syrië is eigenlijk ‘Aram’. In het woordenboek van Jastrow (‹Hebrew Aramaic Targum Dictionary›) wordt opgemerkt dat de naam ‘Arameeër’ soms als een schuilnaam voor een Romein werd gebruikt.
Jezus Christus – dit is de lezing van de Aramese Peshitta. De lezing van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR luidt: ‘Christus Jezus’.
google translate:
Galatians 3:28 – There is neither Jew nor Aramean, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Jesus Christ.
Aramean – this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is: ‘Greek’.
All 22 times that we read the word ‘Aramean’ in the Aramaic Peshitta, we read ‘Greek’ or ‘Greek’ in the Greek NT, except in Lk. 4:27 where ‘Aramean’ is translated not as ‘Greek’, but as ‘Syrian’, which is a correct translation, because Syria is actually ‘Aram’.
In the dictionary of Jastrow (‹Hebrew Aramaic Targum Dictionary›) it is noted that the name ‘Aramean’ was sometimes used as a pseudonym for a Roman.
Jesus Christ – this is the reading of the Aramaic Peshitta.
The reading of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR is: ‘Christ Jesus’.
“Yes, all those were possible”
If someone can convert to Judaism and thereby become a Jew, how can being a Jew be a racial thing?
“a few people like Dr Ammon Hillman who’ve had several exorcisms performed on themself. He’s big into the Ancient Greek pagan languages and then applies to the NT κοινη; which that is where the mistake occurs”
What “mistake” is that?
Do you think demons exist?
The LXX uses the word barbarian to describe foreigners in two verses.
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Ironically that could apply to Greeks themselves in the LXX.
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Ah, Titus. I think he was Greek and well versed in several dialects of Greek and helped Paul write his letters into Greek because the churches probably spoke different dialects too.
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Jew is a racial thing because it’s based on the mother’s bloodline. If the mom was a Jew: the offspring born from her were Jews. I think. 🤷♂️
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Ammon, yes. He’s not right in the head. I suspect he’s using drugs now. He claims to be the Beast that’s released every 1000 years (video: 1 minute). He’s a big theatre guy of Ancient Greek art and theatre 🎭. He’s extremely open minded and not very argumentative. One of the special kids born with a high IQ. Looks like he used all that IQ to learn Ancient Greek mostly. I talked to him a few times about a year ago through the Stack Exchange Biblical Hermeneutics platform on the topics of Revelation and Beast with 7 heads; before he was famous or whatever now on YouTube. I’m pretty sure it was the same person. Platform name was just Ammon: specialty Ancient Greek philosophy. 🤷♂️
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