jakejones said
“So although Mark gets John’s baptism with water where does it say he confessed his sins and had them washed away” Where did anyone in mark confess to their sins prior to getting baptised by john?
Mark 1:5 “The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him, confessing their sins they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.”
“Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water,” “Coming up out of the water” seems to indicate that jesus was completely submerged and then only after heavens opened up. a pre-submerged jesus was clearly not holy enough .
But prior to his baptism he was so holy John the Baptist was unfit to stoop down and untie his sandals.
so John the baptizer appeared[e] in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.(D) 5 And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.(E) 7 He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me…. The Baptism of Jesus 9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.(H) 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, What makes you think that mark does not want readers to think jesus confessed his sins when he just told you what the purpose was for people coming to john?
“The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals.(F) 8 I have baptized you with[f] water, but he will baptize you with holy spirit” John seems to be saying that those who are subject to his baptism ritual have not received more power i.e jesus did not receive more power which explains why holy spirit was needed to decend on jesus.
There may be a problem here that people are taking the baptism as a literally magical event, rather than an event with heavy symbolism. Both views can be in play at the same time, of course, which is why there are still denominations arguing over whether sprinkling is sufficient or it has to be full immersion or full immersion in fresh running water. (I certainly would not want to do it in that river today, although many do.)
jakejones said
What makes you think that mark does not want readers to think jesus confessed his sins when he just told you what the purpose was for people coming to john?
Because Jesus is more powerful than John, because John is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals, because Jesus goes through a later baptism for other people’s sins not his own.
Because he is the holy one of God.
Because Jesus is the Lord of judgement day who decides who gets into the kingdom of heaven.
And because Mark never says Jesus confessed his sins.
But he was fit to baptise jesus? Why is john worthy of baptising someone who he is unfit to tie the shoe lace of unless john saw jesus as someone regular?
Because its not a normal baptism where the person’s sins are washed away.
John seems to be saying that those who are subject to his baptism ritual have not received more power i.e jesus did not receive more power which explains why holy spirit was needed to decend on jesus.
Possibly – but he was not chosen to be the son of god at that point.
jesus goes to john and is baptised just like any other sinner. who is powerful in this stance? the object getting immersed or john? What has jesus dying got to do with the fact that jesus was baptised by john?
what is interesting is jesus came to john and like any other sinner was subject to a ritual done by a less powerful man.
Clearly he could not have been holy one of god prior to baptism
also the holy ghost is required to decend on post baptised jesus.
given authority to say “your going hell…” does not mean jesus was sinless prior to being submerged in water.
Mark already told you the reason why sinners come to john.
What do you mean not a “normal” baptism?
After jesus was cleansed of his sins and holy ghost decended on him, jesus was “chosen”
There’s nothing in the phrase “you are my beloved son” that indicates he hadn’t been a beloved son prior to god making the statement.
Except of course that Mark begins his gospel with this experience after indicating that Jesus submitted to a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The Holy Spirit comes upon Jesus in a way that indicates it hadn’t been upon him before.
That this is a depiction of adoption to sonship is just a baseless assertion.
it’s the result of a close reading allowing Mark to speak for himself unburdened by the assumptions coming from a previously decided faith position.
...a “Lord” of the vineyard who has a son and heir…
I’m not sure what you point is here. Mark is using 12:1-12 to illustrate the consequences of the Jewish rejection of Jesus. This is being written in the shadow of the First Revolt and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple remember.
Yes but Jesus goes through another baptism in Mark (his death) but it is not a baptism for his own sins.
Mark 10:38 is clearly written from a post-Easter perspective using the images of the cup and baptism as metaphors for the suffering Jesus must endure. This is Mark’s great theme in his gospel. The crucified Messiah.
So although Mark gets John’s baptism with water where does it say he confessed his sins and had them washed away?
Once again…
…so John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins.
…In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
So John is the preparer of the way for the Messiah who is a sinful man. John is able to baptize and wash away the sins of this sinful man but is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals? How does that make sense?
Because Jesus has been adopted by God and exalted to divine sonship and John has not. Makes perfect sense if you’ll allow Mark to have his own say unburdened by the baggage of later gospels.
“where does it say he confessed his sins and had them washed away”
** you do not have permission to see this link ** Are you saying it was an audiable list of sins or just something inaudiable internal to one? Since people who are born mute couldnt speak, then i guess it was internal confession. It is not neccessary confessions have to be audiable.
mark already said that jesus went to john for baptism
baptism = process for washing away sins
After jesus is cleansed he is decended upon by holy spirit which cast him out into wilderness, then satan comes to jesus because he knew that jesus could sin, but satan was unware that jesus was washed and instrumented by holy spirit.
when holy spirit leaves jesus, jesus blasphemes and cries out “why have you forsaken me?”
“So John is the preparer of the way for the Messiah who is a sinful man. John is able to baptize and wash away the sins of this sinful man but is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals?” This assumes john has jesus in mind. The problem is john washes jesus , so already he sees himself as worthy to stand tall over jesus while jesus is submerged in water.
Stephen said
There’s nothing in the phrase “you are my beloved son” that indicates he hadn’t been a beloved son prior to god making the statement.Except of course that Mark begins his gospel with this experience after indicating that Jesus submitted to a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The Holy Spirit comes upon Jesus in a way that indicates it hadn’t been upon him before.
Yes this is the beginning of the messianic mission. This is a human being receiving the holy spirit, who remains a human being after. There’s nothing indicating an exaltation to divine sonship.
Jesus is the son of man who “came to give his life as a ransom for many” according to Mark.
He is going through the same baptisms every one else must go through, but Jesus’s baptisms purify the sins of the many. Not his own.
...a “Lord” of the vineyard who has a son and heir…
I’m not sure what you point is here. Mark is using 12:1-12 to illustrate the consequences of the Jewish rejection of Jesus. This is being written in the shadow of the First Revolt and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple remember.
Yes the parable is about Jesus being the son and heir of the “lord” of the vineyard who gets killed by the tenants of the vineyard. Why does this parable apply to Jesus? How does he inherit the lordship of the vineyard from god? does god cease to be lord of the vineyard?
Yes but Jesus goes through another baptism in Mark (his death) but it is not a baptism for his own sins.
Mark 10:38 is clearly written from a post-Easter perspective using the images of the cup and baptism as metaphors for the suffering Jesus must endure. This is Mark’s great theme in his gospel. The crucified Messiah.
Yes but it means Mark understands one of Jesus’s baptisms as being for the sins of others. We therefore must open to the possibility that the first baptism with John was for other people’s sins.
So although Mark gets John’s baptism with water where does it say he confessed his sins and had them washed away?
Once again…
…so John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins.
…In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
“And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.“
“In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.”
Was leaving out the part in bold intentional on Mark’s part? Should that be considered likely seeing as between these two verses Mark states John is unworthy to stoop down and untie Jesus’s sandals?
So John is the preparer of the way for the Messiah who is a sinful man. John is able to baptize and wash away the sins of this sinful man but is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals? How does that make sense?
Because Jesus has been adopted by God and exalted to divine sonship and John has not. Makes perfect sense if you’ll allow Mark to have his own say unburdened by the baggage of later gospels.
You believe Jesus was exalted to divine sonship at his baptism. Did Jesus cease to be human when he was exalted? If not, in what sense is he being exalted?
jakejones said
“So John is the preparer of the way for the Messiah who is a sinful man. John is able to baptize and wash away the sins of this sinful man but is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals?” This assumes john has jesus in mind. The problem is john washes jesus , so already he sees himself as worthy to stand tall over jesus while jesus is submerged in water.
Yes it assumes John has Jesus in mind.
If he is not talking about Jesus he may have confessed his sins to John.
If John is talking about Jesus it should be concluded Jesus did not confess any sins to John and this was not a normal baptism. That it was unlike the baptism the rest of the Judean region went to John to receive.
“Was leaving out the part in bold intentional on Mark’s part?”
no, inference is already there.
“Should that be considered likely seeing as between these two verses Mark states John is unworthy to stoop down and untie Jesus’s sandals?”
he never says “untie jesus’ sandals” where you getting that from ?
jesus comes to john, john baptises jesus and is standing tall over him while jesus is submerged. submerged would imply jesus required to be fully cleansed of internal impurity of what is born in the heart. but the ritual is not enough, jesus requires something additional to hover over him .
mark thinks jesus was a sinner and required rituals to clean him . whats the problem?
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