9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him, and were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
notice how mark did not order the verses like i just did?
Yes but it means Mark understands one of Jesus’s baptisms as being for the sins of others. We therefore must open to the possibility that the first baptism with John was for other people’s sins.
you saying that john baptised jesus because of other peoples sins? are you saying that john saw jesus as the lamb who gets dunked for the forgiveness of sins ? if yes, what was the point of john potentially drowning others?
“He is going through the same baptisms every one else must go through, but Jesus’s baptisms purify the sins of the many. Not his own.”
so John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
why would he make a proclamation when there is no purification ?
“And the whole Judean region and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him and were baptized by him in the River Jordan, confessing their sins.”
people were being baptised by john but remained unpuried because john did not baptise jesus yet?
“In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water…”
so john uses the word “baptised” which marks explains as “baptism of repentance for…..” to tell readers that jesus was sinless and dependant on jesus’ baptism for purification ?
Yes this is the beginning of the messianic mission. This is a human being receiving the holy spirit, who remains a human being after. There’s nothing indicating an exaltation to divine sonship.
So everybody who gets baptized gets the voice from Heaven and the input of the Holy Spirit? Nothing special here folks, move along..
You believe Jesus was exalted to divine sonship at his baptism. Did Jesus cease to be human when he was exalted? If not, in what sense is he being exalted?
Now that’s a really good question. Jesus clearly acquires magic powers. But does his ontological status change? I’m not sure Mark has clearly thought this through. What is clear though is that we’re still light years away from Nicene Trinitarianism. The answer is in ancient ways of thinking about the divine. We moderns tend to think in absolute categories but for the ancients the distance between the human and the divine was a continuum with traffic moving in both directions. Presumably there were entities existing at every point on that continuum. The level to which Jesus was exalted was undoubtedly high because he became the son of god. I don’t think Mark claims he ceases to be human altogether when he is made divine.
Stephen said
Yes this is the beginning of the messianic mission. This is a human being receiving the holy spirit, who remains a human being after. There’s nothing indicating an exaltation to divine sonship.So everybody who gets baptized gets the voice from Heaven and the input of the Holy Spirit? Nothing special here folks, move along..
No just Jesus does. But a voice from heaven and the holy spirit landing on him in the form of a dove does not indicate an exaltation to divine sonship. Perhaps after his resurrection he was exalted but not at the baptism.
Nothing changes at his baptism.
You could claim he was metaphorically called “son of god” at his baptism but not exaltation to divinity. Perhaps deemed a righteous man there, but not made divine.
So if we agree that at some point in Mark’s gospel Jesus is indeed the divine son we need to look elsewhere than the baptism for when this exaltation took place. Where do you suggest?
You believe Jesus was exalted to divine sonship at his baptism. Did Jesus cease to be human when he was exalted? If not, in what sense is he being exalted?
Now that’s a really good question. Jesus clearly acquires magic powers. But does his ontological status change? I’m not sure Mark has clearly thought this through. What is clear though is that we’re still light years away from Nicene Trinitarianism. The answer is in ancient ways of thinking about the divine. We moderns tend to think in absolute categories but for the ancients the distance between the human and the divine was a continuum with traffic moving in both directions. Presumably there were entities existing at every point on that continuum. The level to which Jesus was exalted was undoubtedly high because he became the son of god. I don’t think Mark claims he ceases to be human altogether when he is made divine.
Many of the ancients may have felt that way but not Mark.
For Mark there is only one god, one divinity.
You have to have an overall view of what Marks gospel is about. Its about the person who elects on judgement day who goes to heaven and hell coming to give his life as a ransom for many.
Mark claims David speaks about this person and calls him Lord.
How do you fit the baptism into that narrative?
jakejones said
is it a neccessity to have an audiable confession while being dunked ?
No you can confess sins internally no need to voice the confession.
so John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
why would he make a proclamation when there is no purification ?
There is purification but its not eternal – you can still sin again after being baptized by John
jakejones said
So then it was not a neccessity for mark to report that jesus confessed his sins audiable or inaudiably also considering that he just told u jesus was baptised
No it wasnt a necessity, but if it doesn’t explicitly say Jesus confessed his sins it can’t be just assumed. It needs to make sense within the story. If Jesus goes to John to be cleansed of his sins how is it that John is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals.
how is there purification if it is dependant on the baptism of jesus?
“No it wasnt a necessity, but if it doesn’t explicitly say Jesus confessed his sins it can’t be just assumed. It needs to make sense within the story. If Jesus goes to John to be cleansed of his sins how is it that John is unworthy to stoop down and untie his sandals.“
He proclaimed, “The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the strap of his sandals. 8 I have baptized you with[** you do not have permission to see this link **] the Holy Spirit.
john says “one who is MORE powerful than i” meaning it can’t be jesus, since jesus is :
1. coming to john and is not more powerful than john.
2. jesus does not have the holy spirit prior to baptism so he cannot be powerful
3. how can john baptise “one who is more powrful than” him?
4. john sees himself worthy of baptising jesus .
how is there purification if it is dependant on the baptism of jesus?
Where do you suggest?
What I suggest is that we treat these ancient writers with respect and let them have their say unencumbered by previously held faith positions or anachronistic assumptions. This is difficult under any circumstances but we have recourse to scholars who have spent their careers fretting over these texts. Nothing surpasses a close reading.
You have to have an overall view of what Marks gospel is about.
In my opinion what Mark is “about” is using stories about Jesus to minister to a community which had been brutalized by some recent trauma. Looking at the text through this lens clarifies much that is weird about the gospel. The author’s Christology and soteriology were what was available to the author at that stage of the development of a body of thought. In many ways the gospel of Mark is a transitional work which helps to explain why Matthew and Luke found some of it so unsatisfactory that they felt the need to correct what they thought were the “good” parts.
Stephen said
Where do you suggest?What I suggest is that we treat these ancient writers with respect and let them have their say unencumbered by previously held faith positions or anachronistic assumptions. This is difficult under any circumstances but we have recourse to scholars who have spent their careers fretting over these texts. Nothing surpasses a close reading.
You have to have an overall view of what Marks gospel is about.
In my opinion what Mark is “about” is using stories about Jesus to minister to a community which had been brutalized by some recent trauma. Looking at the text through this lens clarifies much that is weird about the gospel. The author’s Christology and soteriology were what was available to the author at that stage of the development of a body of thought. In many ways the gospel of Mark is a transitional work which helps to explain why Matthew and Luke found some of it so unsatisfactory that they felt the need to correct what they thought were the “good” parts.
What weirdness in Mark do you think is being clarified by the lens you’re reading the gospel through? Are you allowing the gospel to speak for itself?
Is Mark’s gospel about a sinful man who gets baptized and preaches about the coming kingdom of god? It has some weird bits about this man being the judge of who goes to heaven and hell coming to give his life as a ransom for many, but those weird bits can be dismissed because that’s the only soteriology Mark had available to him and couldn’t come up with his own?
Or is there some other weirdness in Mark’s gospel that gets clarified through the lens you’re viewing it through?
jakejones said
john says “one who is MORE powerful than i” meaning it can’t be jesus, since jesus is :
If you understanding of the gospel requires the one more powerful than John to not be Jesus than you’re not going to have much luck defending that understanding.
The gospel is about the one more powerful than John. And Mark tells us in 1:1 who that is.
where did john say that ?
John doesn’t say it – the gospel says it.
Mark 8:34-35 “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it”
Mark 10:29-30 “Truly I tell you, Jesus replied, no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields along with persecutions and in the age to come eternal life.“
Mark 14:24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many”
How do you explain these verses if Jesus is just some random sinner that gets baptized by John like everyone else? Who is the one more powerful than John the baptist if he never gets mentioned again by Mark?
did not yhwh select random sinners which mark knew about like righteous lot, david, jeremiah….?
did not mark know about this verse :
Job 25:4– How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure?
?
“Who is the one more powerful than John the baptist if he never gets mentioned again by Mark?”
i could ask, if john did not baptise jesus, then would the holy spirit have decended on jesus? it is only after jesus is cleansed from his sins does the holy spirit decend on jesus. so who empowers jesus? the holy spirit. who is more powerful than jesus?
Mark 3:29– “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
** you do not have permission to see this link ** “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it”
** you do not have permission to see this link ** “Truly I tell you, Jesus replied, no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields along with persecutions and in the age to come eternal life.“
** you do not have permission to see this link ** “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many”
no where is there a condition here that one has to be sinless. and if you want to use these verses as proof, then this could only be possible after jesus was cleansed of his sins.
brenmcg said
Stephen said
Where do you suggest?
What I suggest is that we treat these ancient writers with respect and let them have their say unencumbered by previously held faith positions or anachronistic assumptions. This is difficult under any circumstances but we have recourse to scholars who have spent their careers fretting over these texts. Nothing surpasses a close reading.
You have to have an overall view of what Marks gospel is about.
In my opinion what Mark is “about” is using stories about Jesus to minister to a community which had been brutalized by some recent trauma. Looking at the text through this lens clarifies much that is weird about the gospel. The author’s Christology and soteriology were what was available to the author at that stage of the development of a body of thought. In many ways the gospel of Mark is a transitional work which helps to explain why Matthew and Luke found some of it so unsatisfactory that they felt the need to correct what they thought were the “good” parts.
What weirdness in Mark do you think is being clarified by the lens you’re reading the gospel through? Are you allowing the gospel to speak for itself?
Is Mark’s gospel about a sinful man who gets baptized and preaches about the coming kingdom of god? It has some weird bits about this man being the judge of who goes to heaven and hell coming to give his life as a ransom for many, but those weird bits can be dismissed because that’s the only soteriology Mark had available to him and couldn’t come up with his own?
Or is there some other weirdness in Mark’s gospel that gets clarified through the lens you’re viewing it through?
Everyone interprets but a successful interpretation is one which most successfully accounts for the information provided by the source text. It is extremely difficult to read the NT without baggage. I do not claim to be immune from this. However my interest is literary and historical not theological. I don’t believe in Jesus except as a character in a book. I have no axe to grind. But I don’t pretend to be objective. There is no “god’s eye” view of these matters. But I love the gospel of Mark and have read it closely for years. I’ve read scholars and literary critics and over the years have arrived at some opinions. I will be happy to share them but I have to say honestly I don’t think you are really interested. So I will aim them at anyone who is truly interested. Those who have ears let them hear.
You will pardon me if I take the time to gather my thoughts. I’m currently in the middle of a move so it’s hard to find time to write at length. But my response to your generous invitation will appear in due course. I may even open a separate thread. In the meantime you never answered my question. If Jesus did not become divine at his baptism in Mark when did he become divine and why did Mark begin at Jesus’ baptism?
Stephen said
I will be happy to share them but I have to say honestly I don’t think you are really interested.
Why do think that?
In the meantime you never answered my question. If Jesus did not become divine at his baptism in Mark when did he become divine and why did Mark begin at Jesus’ baptism?
For Mark he was the pre-existent Lord referred to by David and Isaiah. He is the son and heir of the father and came into the world in order to give his life as a ransom for many. He will be the Lord of judgement day who will elect those who will enter the kingdom of god. (All taken directly from the gospel).
He begins at the baptism because for Mark that is where he is anointed as Messiah and where his ministry begins. (Mark didn’t believe or didn’t know Matthew/Luke’s nativity accounts to be true).
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