jakejones said
did not yhwh select random sinners which mark knew about like righteous lot, david, jeremiah….?
did not mark know about this verse :Job 25:4– How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure?
i could ask, if john did not baptise jesus, then would the holy spirit have decended on jesus? it is only after jesus is cleansed from his sins does the holy spirit decend on jesus. so who empowers jesus? the holy spirit. who is more powerful than jesus?
The one who is more powerful baptizes with the holy spirit so it is not the spirit itself.
The spirit descends on Jesus because this is his anointing.
Isaiah 61:1 “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.”
no where is there a condition here that one has to be sinless. and if you want to use these verses as proof, then this could only be possible after jesus was cleansed of his sins.
The verses are quoted because any interpretation of Mark’s gospel will need to account for them.
And no interpretation of the gospel in which Jesus is some random sinful man like everyone else can account for them.
Jesus must be special – different from everyone else. And the only places Mark tells us how he is different is by calling him “Lord” and “Son”.
He can’t be made “Lord” and “Son” because then any other random sinful man like everyone else could be given these titles and there’d be nothing special about Jesus to begin with.
brenmcg said
jakejones said
did not yhwh select random sinners which mark knew about like righteous lot, david, jeremiah….?He probably did know about them – but these are given earthly temporal purposes not cosmical eternal ones.
did not mark know about this verse :Job 25:4– How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure?Not sure, he may have done. He may have thought Jesus answered this?
i could ask, if john did not baptise jesus, then would the holy spirit have decended on jesus? it is only after jesus is cleansed from his sins does the holy spirit decend on jesus. so who empowers jesus? the holy spirit. who is more powerful than jesus?The one who is more powerful baptizes with the holy spirit so it is not the spirit itself.
but he baptises WITH the spirit so he is DEPENDANT on the spirit. jesus CANT do it himself.
The spirit descends on Jesus because this is his anointing.
only after jesus is washed , cleansed and purified . the spirit also casts jesus into the wilderness.
Isaiah 61:1 “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.”
so it is showing a dependancy , your point is?
no where is there a condition here that one has to be sinless. and if you want to use these verses as proof, then this could only be possible after jesus was cleansed of his sins.
The verses are quoted because any interpretation of Mark’s gospel will need to account for them.
and?
And no interpretation of the gospel in which Jesus is some random sinful man like everyone else can account for them.
yes they can, yhwh selected sinful prophets and annointed them .
Jesus must be special – different from everyone else. And the only places Mark tells us how he is different is by calling him “Lord” and “Son”.
and how do these terms prove jesus was sinless prior to receiving these names? when did jesus become different ?
He can’t be made “Lord” and “Son” because then any other random sinful man like everyone else could be given these titles and there’d be nothing special about Jesus to begin with.
where does mark say this? why does “everyone” have to be given these titles? only the sinners yhwh selects and ones destined to go on a mission.
i dont see the point.
Why do [you] think that?
Because of your constant unsupported assertions about the the gospel of Mark. You are bringing a great deal of baggage to the text not derived from the text.
For Mark he was the pre-existent Lord referred to by David and Isaiah.
A perfect example. What evidence do you have that Mark thinks Jesus is pre-existent?
He begins at the baptism because for Mark that is where he is anointed as Messiah and where his ministry begins.
Precisely. What you fail to grasp is that for Mark being “anointed Messiah” and being made divine is the same thing! All the gospels begin at the beginning; for Mark that is at Jesus’ baptism, for Matthew and Luke, his birth, and for John in the heavenlies before his earthly existence.
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove upon him. 11 And a voice came from the heavens, “You are my Son, the Beloved;[** you do not have permission to see this link **] with you I am well pleased.”
“if this is true, then is their evidence that the literal rules for sacrifices in the torah were reinterpreted to support prayer instead of sacrifice?”
quote:
Yes. The Essene sectarians believed that the Jerusalem Temple was defiled and that they themselves were the legitimate priesthood instead of those poseurs in control of the Temple. So until the true heavenly Temple is established, they believed that their offering of prayer and praise were equivalent to sacrifice and offerings. “Whoever praises the Most High will be accepted by him exactly like someone who offers sacrifice” (11QPSª 18:7-9).
The same applied to mikveh immersion, as the person who complies with all the laws of God and is “made holy with the waters of repentance … will be admitted by means of atonement pleasing to God (ניחוח לפני אל)” (1QS 3:6-12).
This uses language directly evocative of the sacrificial cult, as in the OT sacrifices were described as pleasing or acceptable to God in Exodus 29:25, Leviticus 1:9, 13, 17, etc. 1 Peter 2:5 has a very close parallel, referring to the Christian community as “a holy priesthood (ἱεράτευμα ἅγιον), offering spiritual sacrifices (πνευματικὰς θυσίας) acceptable to God (εὐπροσδέκτους θεῷ)”.
What is more, Josephus (Antiquitates 18.117-118) uses the same language in reference to John the Baptist, with John’s baptism as being made “acceptable to him” (ἀποδεκτήν αὐτῷ), i.e. acceptable to God. So Josephus indicates that John the Baptist may have had a similar understanding of baptism as a form of sacrifice expiating sin.
Even the story of Jesus’ baptism in the synoptic gospels reflects the same understanding, as God declares to Jesus in Mark 1:11 that “in you I am well-pleased” (ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα), which conveys exactly the thought that Jesus was pleasing or acceptable to God.
and when does jesus become “acceptable to god” ?
quote:
The same applied to mikveh immersion, as the person who complies with all the laws of God and is “made holy with the waters of repentance … will be admitted by means of atonement pleasing to God (ניחוח לפני אל)” (1QS 3:6-12).
jakejones said
there is no doubt in my mind that the baptism of jesus is evidence that early christians did not see jesus as sinless lamb.
Is it not also possible that early Christians did not really think much about it at all? Sometimes it seems as if we want such clear cut answers to questions that are often meant to be left as a mystery.
JAS said
jakejones said
there is no doubt in my mind that the baptism of jesus is evidence that early christians did not see jesus as sinless lamb.
Is it not also possible that early Christians did not really think much about it at all? Sometimes it seems as if we want such clear cut answers to questions that are often meant to be left as a mystery.
Terrific point. None of the NT writers were systematic theologians. The unintended audience has had two thousand years to chew over every expression and contrive all manner of relationships.
jakejones said
And no interpretation of the gospel in which Jesus is some random sinful man like everyone else can account for them.
yes they can, yhwh selected sinful prophets and annointed them .
Yes but sinful anointed prophets don’t decide who goes to heaven and hell. Their blood is not the blood of the covenant. They are not Lord even of the Sabbath. They won’t come on the clouds of heaven and send the angels and gather their elect. They won’t sit at the right hand of God. They didn’t come to give their life as a ransom for many.
Jesus must be special – different from everyone else. And the only places Mark tells us how he is different is by calling him “Lord” and “Son”.
and how do these terms prove jesus was sinless prior to receiving these names? when did jesus become different ?
Jesus didn’t receive these titles. At no point in the gospel of Mark was Jesus not “Lord”.
Stephen said
Why do [you] think that?Because of your constant unsupported assertions about the the gospel of Mark. You are bringing a great deal of baggage to the text not derived from the text.
Constant assertions about the gospel of Mark? or constant unsupported assertions about the gospel of Mark?
I say when Mark writes in Mark 6:8-9 “These were his instructions ,take nothing for the journey but only a staff, no bread no bag no money in your belts. wear sandals but not an extra shirt” that he misunderstands the theological point being made by Matthew and almost comically turns it into practical advice for the disciples. What baggage do you think is being brought in here to this opinion?
For Mark he was the pre-existent Lord referred to by David and Isaiah.
A perfect example. What evidence do you have that Mark thinks Jesus is pre-existent?
“I will send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare your way”
“Prepare the way for the Lord make straight paths for him”
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many”
“He had one left to send ,a son whom he loved”
“David himself calls him Lord. How then can he be his son?”
He begins at the baptism because for Mark that is where he is anointed as Messiah and where his ministry begins.
Precisely. What you fail to grasp is that for Mark being “anointed Messiah” and being made divine is the same thing!
Yes I fail to grasp it. Because it isn’t true.
Jesus gets executed after his baptism.
Being made divine after his death and resurrection makes some sense in Mark, being made divine at his baptism makes zero sense.
does not enoch in non-canonical writings get divine status ?
Yes but sinful anointed prophets don’t decide who goes to heaven and hell. Their blood is not the blood of the covenant. They are not Lord even of the Sabbath. They won’t come on the clouds of heaven and send the angels and gather their elect. They won’t sit at the right hand of God. They didn’t come to give their life as a ransom for many.
you didnt demonstrate how any of these tasks requires a sinless person. mark tells you that the messiah who was baptised for his sins was given a spirit and authority . you are failing to demonstrate why sinlessness is requirement for any of the tasks you have listed. i dont even see the connection.
and why does mark have satan tempt jesus if satan knew jesus couldnt sin?
I will extend my previous comment a bit. Although the gospels present Jesus’ baptism as a somewhat miraculous event (with the heavens being torn asunder, etc.), there is a purely pragmatic aspect that should be considered. By being baptized, Jesus established the ceremony as a formal ritual for his followers, and it aligns him with a ready-made collection of people who have already been looking for a change much like what he is proposing. Ceremonies of this sort can have powerful psychological effects on those who engage in them, and they help to make tangible the intangible, even if only symbolically.
Constant assertions about the gospel of Mark? or constant unsupported assertions about the gospel of Mark?
I say when Mark writes in ** you do not have permission to see this link ** “These were his instructions ,take nothing for the journey but only a staff, no bread no bag no money in your belts. wear sandals but not an extra shirt” that he misunderstands the theological point being made by Matthew and almost comically turns it into practical advice for the disciples. What baggage do you think is being brought in here to this opinion?
Your view of Matthean priority. It causes you to seriously misunderstand what may actually be in this case an early authentic memory of the historical Jesus.
I will send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare your way”
“Prepare the way for the Lord make straight paths for him”
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many”
“He had one left to send ,a son whom he loved”
“David himself calls him Lord. How then can he be his son?”
Proof-texting don’t cut it. Explicate the passages in context. Then we might have a conversation.
Jesus gets executed after his baptism.
Huh?
Being made divine after his death and resurrection makes some sense in Mark, being made divine at his baptism makes zero sense.
As I’ve already pointed out, this is because you don’t understand the way the ancients viewed the relationship between the human world and the divine world. From their point of view it makes perfect sense. Such things happened all the time. The ancients didn’t think the way we think. Anachronism is probably inevitable to some degree but let’s at least try not to pretend that the writers of the NT were 21st century theologians.
jakejones said
Yes but sinful anointed prophets don’t decide who goes to heaven and hell. Their blood is not the blood of the covenant. They are not Lord even of the Sabbath. They won’t come on the clouds of heaven and send the angels and gather their elect. They won’t sit at the right hand of God. They didn’t come to give their life as a ransom for many.
you didnt demonstrate how any of these tasks requires a sinless person. mark tells you that the messiah who was baptised for his sins was given a spirit and authority . you are failing to demonstrate why sinlessness is requirement for any of the tasks you have listed. i dont even see the connection.
and why does mark have satan tempt jesus if satan knew jesus couldnt sin?
Is Jesus an ordinary sinful person like any other? Is there a reason Jesus was chosen? How can an ordinary sinful person’s blood be the blood of the covenant. How can an ordinary sinful person be Lord of the Sabbath or come on the clouds of heaven sending his angels?
Is Jesus chosen randomly or is there something special about him? What does Mark say is special about Jesus (besides being randomly chosen)?
Stephen said
Constant assertions about the gospel of Mark? or constant unsupported assertions about the gospel of Mark?I say when Mark writes in ** you do not have permission to see this link ** “These were his instructions ,take nothing for the journey but only a staff, no bread no bag no money in your belts. wear sandals but not an extra shirt” that he misunderstands the theological point being made by Matthew and almost comically turns it into practical advice for the disciples. What baggage do you think is being brought in here to this opinion?
Your view of Matthean priority. It causes you to seriously misunderstand what may actually be in this case an early authentic memory of the historical Jesus.
My view of Matthean priority is a conclusion. What are the unsupported assertions and great deal of baggage you mentioned?
I will send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare your way”
“Prepare the way for the Lord make straight paths for him”
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many”
“He had one left to send ,a son whom he loved”
“David himself calls him Lord. How then can he be his son?”
Proof-texting don’t cut it. Explicate the passages in context. Then we might have a conversation.
But we have been having an conversation where you’ve been claiming Jesus was made divine at his baptism and I’ve been claiming he was always divine in Mark. These are the quotations from his gospel I’ve been using. What are the unsupported assertions you’re talking about?
Jesus gets executed after his baptism.
Huh?
Being made divine after his death and resurrection makes some sense in Mark, being made divine at his baptism makes zero sense.
As I’ve already pointed out, this is because you don’t understand the way the ancients viewed the relationship between the human world and the divine world. From their point of view it makes perfect sense. Such things happened all the time. The ancients didn’t think the way we think. Anachronism is probably inevitable to some degree but let’s at least try not to pretend that the writers of the NT were 21st century theologians.
You claimed Jesus was exalted to divine sonship at his baptism. In what sense has he been exalted to divinity if he subsequently gets executed in Mark’s gospel?
If he is executed first and then exalted to divinity that makes sense (he can no longer be executed).
If he was divine but becomes human and gets executed – that makes sense (he became mortal).
Deceased rulers, pharaohs or caesers, could be deified, or living rulers claim to be god, but in what sense is Jesus deified at his baptism if he is still mortal after his baptism?
Is Jesus an ordinary sinful person like any other? Is there a reason Jesus was chosen? How can an ordinary sinful person’s blood be the blood of the covenant. How can an ordinary sinful person be Lord of the Sabbath or come on the clouds of heaven sending his angels?
Is Jesus chosen randomly or is there something special about him? What does Mark say is special about Jesus (besides being randomly chosen)?
I answered this one already too. Ancient writers showed character through actions not through psychologizing. Mark shows Jesus being divinized. It seems not to occur to him to ask the questions we moderns instinctively ask. The ancients didn’t think the way we think! Another thing to keep in mind because it is relevant to later stories about Jesus. Depictions of childhood were by and large NOT to depict formative experiences but to anticipate adult actions through childhood experiences.
What are the unsupported assertions and great deal of baggage you mentioned?
Here is an interesting intellectual exercise I recommend to all and sundry. When you read Mark imagine that no other gospel exists and all you will ever know about Jesus you will get only from this book. Do your best to forget all the other stories you’ve heard. What does Mark tell us about Jesus? What stories does Mark tell? In truth it’s probably impossible to pull this off completely successfully but it can be quite a stimulating mind game.
But we have been having an conversation where you’ve been claiming Jesus was made divine at his baptism and I’ve been claiming he was always divine in Mark. These are the quotations from his gospel I’ve been using. What are the unsupported assertions you’re talking about?
I’m asking you to explicate the quotes in their context.
You claimed Jesus was exalted to divine sonship at his baptism. In what sense has he been exalted to divinity if he subsequently gets executed in Mark’s gospel?
All the gospels, whatever their Christology, claim Jesus was divine before he was executed. However, of the four only John claims Jesus was pre-existent and he is quite explicit about it.
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