“He is the lord of the end-times who has the power to cut them short”
This is nonsense. What this text means is that instead of coming back say 2000 years plus from when the text was written, what this means is that son of man is coming in life time of “some standing here” to gather “his elect” not that he has cosmic power to speed up time like u find in superman 1 where superman reverses time.
otherwise u would have to assume that anytime identical idea is used for yhwh and his representatives in the ot, then yhwh is his representative.
“Marl 13:26-27 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect””
Where is any idea of having cosmic power like kalel to speed/reverse time?
“my people” or “my elect” or “gods elect” or “gods people”
This doea not mean god and son of man is identical
jakejones said
“He is the lord of the end-times who has the power to cut them short”This is nonsense. What this text means is that instead of coming back say 2000 years plus from when the text was written, what this means is that son of man is coming in life time of “some standing here” to gather “his elect” not that he has cosmic power to speed up time like u find in superman 1 where superman reverses time.
No, what Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them” means is that the end days will be so bad no one will survive if they go on too long. The Lord of the end-times will therefore cut them short for the sake of his elect (those will are persecuted on account of his name).
The end-times are the passing away of the cosmos, the passing away of heaven and earth. The lord of these end times is therefore the lord of the cosmos.
Mark thinks Jesus is this Lord. And quite naturally has Jesus claim the name of this Lord, referencing Exodus 3, where God reveals his name to Moses.
“means is that the end days will be so bad no one will survive if they go on too long.”
thats why the lord of jesus “shortens the days” and thats why jesus says : Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.
“The end-times are the passing away of the cosmos, the passing away of heaven and earth. The lord of these end times is therefore the lord of the cosmos.”
i am confused with what you are saying. in mark 13 jesus is asking his disciples to pray that it may not be in winter, if he was “lord of end time” he would know the season. “i know its going to be summer, but pray that it is not in winter” ? what kind of nonsense is this ?
he says not one knows the hour, only the father, how is mark making him “lord of end time” ?
this is all pertaining to time.
“Mark thinks Jesus is this Lord. And quite naturally has Jesus claim the name of this Lord, referencing Exodus 3, where God reveals his name to Moses.”
mark does not say jesus is “the lord who cuts the days short”
“Even with this one example cleared up, the Hebrew Bible has plenty of other times when it does refer to Yahweh and his messenger interchangeably. Critical scholars point to other ancient Near Eastern texts which show messengers being received as if they are the rulers or deities who sent them. This is not rare, but a basic aspect of the culture. Heiser, for his part, acknowledges the concept but flatly claims ‘biblical language goes beyond this mental substitution’.** you do not have permission to see this link ** He doesn’t interact with the evidence, which shows the ‘biblical language’ is rather unexceptional.”
** you do not have permission to see this link **
it seems like you are saying that because yhwh “elects ” and son of man “gather his elect”, then yhwh and son of man are identical?
jakejones said
i am confused with what you are saying. in mark 13 jesus is asking his disciples to pray that it may not be in winter, if he was “lord of end time” he would know the season. “i know its going to be summer, but pray that it is not in winter” ? what kind of nonsense is this ?
he says not one knows the hour, only the father, how is mark making him “lord of end time” ?
this is all pertaining to time.
Mark’s Jesus is the son and heir of the Parable of the Vineyard, chapter 12, who is loved by the Father before he is sent into the world.
The Father is Lord and Jesus is the heir of this title and name of the Father.
Mark begins his gospel calling Jesus the Messiah Son of God and quotes Malachi and Isaiah
“I will send my messenger ahead of you who will prepare your way” this is the father speaking to the son and heir.
“Prepare the way for the Lord make straight paths for him.” John the baptist will prepare the way for the Lord Jesus.
Chapter 12 he quotes the Psalms “The lord said to my lord … ” – there are two who are Lord, the father and son. He is not David’s son.
Chapter 13 – Jesus is lord of the end-times who will choose and save his elect who were hated on account of his divine name. The Father who is also lord is the only one who knows the actual hour.
Robert said
You’re continue to selectively quote Mk 13,32 in order to evade my question:
Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης ἢ τῆς ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι ἐν οὐρανῷ οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός, εἰ μὴ ὁ πατήρ.
How can Jesus be both the Lord who shortens the days and still be unaware of the day on which all this will occur?
You’re demanding Mark is free of contracting which need not necessarily be the case.
However if you were to attempt to understand it in a consistent manner you would have to say there are two who are Lord. The father and the son.
The son is the lord of the house who is going away but will return with great power and glory. That the son as lord has the power to cut short the days but it is the father as lord who decides when those days will be and when the son will be sent.
heir is a receiver , not pre-existant . in your reading, the father is giving his powers to another, which refutes trinitarianism.
“The son is the lord of the house who is going away but will return with great power and glory.”
“That the son as lord has the power to cut short the days”
no, god cuts the days short(primary cause), jesus as “heir” is given ability to “gather his elect” similar to how moses commands and yhwh commands, two commanders “one action”
** you do not have permission to see this link ** 12It is not in heaven, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?
moses like god is commanding, same hebrew word.
jakejones said
heir is a receiver , not pre-existant . in your reading, the father is giving his powers to another, which refutes trinitarianism.
Being an heir or receiver does not negate pre-existence nor does it refute trinitarianism. In the the christian trinity the son is begotten of the father. The father is the maker of all things, all things are made through the son.
no, god cuts the days short(primary cause), jesus as “heir” is given ability to “gather his elect” similar to how moses commands and yhwh commands, two commanders “one action”
Moses will not sit at the right hand of power and come on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, commanding the angels and gathering his elect from the end of earth to the end of heaven.
** you do not have permission to see this link **12It is not in heaven, that you should need to ask, ‘Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?
moses like god is commanding, same hebrew word.
Moses is not the son and heir of God. He is not the lord of Isaiah 40.3. He is not lord of the sabbath. The spirit speaking through David does not call him lord. He is not the one who’s disciples who are hated because of their lord’s name will be saved at the end.
Robert said
You’re creating the contradiction, and you’re still trying to evade the issue by misquoting the text. Mark’s Jesus does not say that he as Lord has the power to cut short the days, but the Father will decide the day. He says the Lord has already cut short the days, and that he does not know the day.
He says the lord cut short the days for the sake of the elect whom he has chosen. If he chose them they are his elect. The son of man will gather his elect when he comes on the clouds in great glory and power.
Jesus is the son of man, therefore Jesus is the lord who cut short the days of the end-times.
Mark says the father decides when that day will be.
Jesus says “I have foretold you everything” in Mark 13:23. Does that contradict 13:32?
“Being an heir or receiver does not negate pre-existence nor does it refute trinitarianism. “
three co-equal persons having the same identical powers, yet one of them is a receiver ?
if he inherits then he can’t CO-EXIST with the father .
“In the the christian trinity the son is begotten of the father.”
mark is adoptionistic.
“The father is the maker of all things, all things are made through the son.”
thats not in mark.
“Moses will not sit at the right hand of power and come on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,”
so lets put your trinitarian gogles on, nothing you said refutes that moses did not command like yhwh, just because mark creates a list for jesus, does not mean that yhwh did not exist as a commanding moses.
“commanding the angels and gathering his elect from the end of earth to the end of heaven.”
joshua commanded the sun. so you creating a list, does not negate the fact that yhwh existed as joshua and commanded the sun.
but he does things identical to his god and is identified as el. he even SPEAKS like yhwh in the old testament.
“He is not the lord of ** you do not have permission to see this link **. He is not lord of the sabbath.”
neither is your god, he needs anotther to give him authority.
“The spirit speaking through David does not call him lord. He is not the one who’s disciples who are hated because of their lord’s name will be saved at the end.”
isaiah means “yhwh is salvation”
false “i ams” will have the name “jesus” and mislead the many.
“i am he”
your point is ?
“The son of man will gather his elect when he comes on the clouds in great glory and power.”
actually this is refuted by mark
Mark 11:23 (NRSV)
23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you.
notice how mark says that you can have power over the earth simply by believing ?you dont even need to invoke gods name . mark is saying that you can have yhwhs powers simply by believing.
if mark thinks yhwhs delegates his powers to mortals, then he would have no problem delegating his powers to mortals who come to elect people simply based on belief.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)