brenmcg said
But they’re not explicit.“Before Abraham was I AM” is not explicitly claiming the name of the Lord.
If the question is asked “which gospels contains evidence of Jesus claiming the name of the Lord?” then there is no more explicit case than Mark’s “many will come in my name saying I AM”.
I don’t know where you get that ἐγώ εἰμι is ever the name of God. I know that English translations of Exodus 3 render אֶהְיֶה as “I am” in the statement that God told Moses to tell the Israelites that “I am has sent me to you.” You’re getting this from your English translation, though. In the Greek, it says «Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσραήλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς». That is, “thus shall you say to the sons of Israel: ‘The one who is has sent me to you.’” The Greek is ὁ ὤν “the one who is.” Never is God’s name or moniker ἐγώ εἰμι in the text of the Septuagint. I don’t think that this was the meaning of ANY passage in the New Testament, either. You’re reading your English translation in the text of the Bible.
I’m not saying that ἐγώ εἰμι isn’t used as a reference to deity. Yes, Isaiah uses ἐγώ εἰμι to translate אֲנִי הוּא (ʾănî hûʾ) from the Hebrew Bible. This is in statements in which God claims to be the only God. “I am he,” he says. Those statements in the Gospel of John clearly call back to Isaiah’s verses, and Jesus seems to be making a claim to deity. But, it isn’t (and never was) a name of God in the Scriptures. You’ve got to get past that folk explanation. It is contrary to actual scholarship.
jakejones said
so you saying people who identified themselves as “i am” were claiming to be yhwh?“everyone will hate you on account of my name”
so a false “i am” comes along and is hated on account of his name?
It seems to me like hyperliteralism. No one hates Christians because they use a certain name of God. That’s just absurd. When it says “on account of my name” (διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου), it means that they follow him. A Muslim is someone who follows Muhammad, so they might claim to be hated on account of the name of Muhammad. It doesn’t mean that Christians would be hated or persecuted because they used a specific name of God or because Jesus used a specific name. Good grief. I know that this isn’t your statement, jakejones, but it’s what I’m getting from the guy you’re responding to.
Robert said
I don’t always agree with Bart, but I don’t think we really disagree about this point. I think I’m just not yet sure what you mean by Jesus claiming the divine name for himself. If all you mean is that Jesus used ‘I am’ in the gospel of John in such a way that he would be accused of blasphemy, I obviously agree with that.
I have to disagree with Bart here, though. The “I am” statements of GJohn are a call back to Isaiah’s “I am he” statements and not any type of reference to Exodus 3, which doesn’t use “I am” in Greek at all, as you’ve also noted (that it says “the one who is” there).
“Being an heir or receiver does not negate pre-existence nor does it refute trinitarianism. In the the christian trinity the son is begotten of the father. The father is the maker of all things, all things are made through the son.”
father
and
son
what does the son inherit? the fathers powers? how does being begotten in mark imply the son ALWAYS has co-equal powers as the father?
thats not markan thought, thats christian doctrine being read into mark. can you demonstrate from markan language that a son can co-exist with his father and shares the same powers which give inheritance ?
jakejones said
three co-equal persons having the same identical powers, yet one of them is a receiver ?
if he inherits then he can’t CO-EXIST with the father .
Why? The son obeys the father who has put everything at his feet.
mark is adoptionistic.
The statement that mark is adoptionistic is a fantasy without foundation in reality.
so lets put your trinitarian gogles on, nothing you said refutes that moses did not command like yhwh, just because mark creates a list for jesus, does not mean that yhwh did not exist as a commanding moses.
joshua commanded the sun. so you creating a list, does not negate the fact that yhwh existed as joshua and commanded the sun.
The point is Jesus is stated to be lord of the cosmos. This is never stated for Moses or Joshua. Maybe Zacchaeus the chief tax collector in Jericho was lord of the cosmos as well. Who knows, nobody ever said he was.
notice how mark says that you can have power over the earth simply by believing ?you dont even need to invoke gods name . mark is saying that you can have yhwhs powers simply by believing.
if mark thinks yhwhs delegates his powers to mortals, then he would have no problem delegating his powers to mortals who come to elect people simply based on belief.
Yes through faith you can do all the miracles Jesus did. But that doesn’t make you lord. Jesus is not lord in Mark because he walked on water and commanded the sea and the waves. He is lord in Mark because Mark states that he is lord.
Robert said
If Jesus is the Lord who cut short the days, then he would know the day.
Really? Is that your opinion or is that Mark’s opinion?
We’re discussing Mark’s opinion. Mark might be an idiot, you can’t rule that out.
That the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of God and coming with the clouds of heaven, means that they are acting together in some sense. The elect that God has chosen are also the Son of Man’s. Do you imagine that Jesus has his own elect and that the Father has his own set of elect ones and there’s no overlap? Or that God does not care who Jesus chooses as his elect? And Jesus does not care who God would consider the elect? You’re taking this discussion to a silly extreme.
We’re just discussing Mark’s claims. Mark’s claim is that Jesus as Lord and Son of Man chooses who will be saved.
Giving your personal opinion that that’s silly-in-the-extreme isn’t an argument. Mark might be silly-in-the-extreme.
jaihare said
I don’t know where you get that ἐγώ εἰμι is ever the name of God. I know that English translations of Exodus 3 render אֶהְיֶה as “I am” in the statement that God told Moses to tell the Israelites that “I am has sent me to you.” You’re getting this from your English translation, though. In the Greek, it says «Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσραήλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς». That is, “thus shall you say to the sons of Israel: ‘The one who is has sent me to you.’” The Greek is ὁ ὤν “the one who is.” Never is God’s name or moniker ἐγώ εἰμι in the text of the Septuagint. I don’t think that this was the meaning of ANY passage in the New Testament, either. You’re reading your English translation in the text of the Bible.
I’m not saying that ἐγώ εἰμι isn’t used as a reference to deity. Yes, Isaiah uses ἐγώ εἰμι to translate אֲנִי הוּא (ʾănî hûʾ) from the Hebrew Bible. This is in statements in which God claims to be the only God. “I am he,” he says. Those statements in the Gospel of John clearly call back to Isaiah’s verses, and Jesus seems to be making a claim to deity. But, it isn’t (and never was) a name of God in the Scriptures. You’ve got to get past that folk explanation. It is contrary to actual scholarship.
Genesis is full of supposed etymologies for people’s names, whether they are true or not.
And exodus 3 is a a supposed etymology for יְהוָ֞ה (YHWH)
Moses asks God what name he will give to the Israelites.
God says אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה – I AM that I AM
3:15 “thus tell them אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה has sent me to you, tell them יְהוָ֞ה has sent me to you”
“thus tell them I AM has sent me to you, tell them HE WHO IS has sent me to you”
That is, when God refers to himself he says I AM, when Moses or others refer to God they are to say He Who Is (yahweh).
In LXX this concept is rendered εγω ειμι ο ων, I Am He Who Is.
Tell them ο ων has sent me to you. Tell them He Who Is (yahweh) has sent me to you.
Isaiah 41:4 אֲנִ֤י יְהוָה֙ – ani YHWH, εγω ειμι ο ων, I am He who is
Robert said
It’s not intended as an argument. Scholarly arguments and common sense don’t really work with you for some reason. Mark’s claim is that the Lord who shortened the days (not Jesus who does not know the day) chose the elect and that the Son of Man who is seated at the right hand of God and coming on the clouds of heaven will send out angels to gather his elect. It’s common sense that these elect, chosen by God, are also the elect of the Son of Man who is responsible for collecting them.
So if Zacchaeus the chief tax collector of Jericho was tasked with sending out the angels and collecting, from the end of earth and the end of heaven, those chosen to be saved by God the Lord of the end-times, Zacchaeus would be gathering his elect, or God’s elect?
Robert said
brenmcg said
Isaiah 41:4 אֲנִ֤י יְהוָה֙ – ani YHWH, εγω ειμι ο ων, I am He who is
Do you have a different version of the Old Greek? Better check it.
מִי-פָעַל וְעָשָׂה קֹרֵא הַדֹּרוֹת מֵרֹאשׁ אֲנִי יְהוָה רִאשׁוֹן וְאֶת-אַחֲרֹנִים אֲנִי-הוּא׃
ἐνήργησεν καὶ ἐποίησεν ταῦτα; ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὴν ὁ καλῶν αὐτὴν ἀπὸ γενεῶν ἀρχῆς, ἐγὼ θεὸς πρῶτος, καὶ εἰς τὰ ἐπερχόμενα ἐγώ εἰμι.
I don’t mean that’s the translation of Is 41:4 in old greek, just giving some inspiration/justification for the LXX translating exodus 3 as εγω ειμι ο ων despite the hebrew in ex 3 not saying that.
Robert said
If Zaccheus were to be exalted to heaven as the Son of Man, seated at the right hand of God, and coming on the clouds of heaven, sending out angels to gather the elect, the ones chosen by God, then one could speak of them as both.
If I gathered up your chosen elect would I say I’m gathering my elect?
I could say the elect or your elect, but not my elect.
It is the elect of the Son of Man, he is the one that chose them.
Robert said
Do you have a different version of the Old Greek? Better check it.מִי-פָעַל וְעָשָׂה קֹרֵא הַדֹּרוֹת מֵרֹאשׁ אֲנִי יְהוָה רִאשׁוֹן וְאֶת-אַחֲרֹנִים אֲנִי-הוּא׃
ἐνήργησεν καὶ ἐποίησεν ταῦτα; ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὴν ὁ καλῶν αὐτὴν ἀπὸ γενεῶν ἀρχῆς, ἐγὼ θεὸς πρῶτος, καὶ εἰς τὰ ἐπερχόμενα ἐγώ εἰμι.
He’s just making things up. You weren’t supposed to check it.
Robert said
It is the elect of the Son of Man, he is the one that chose them.
Not according to Mark. But we’ve been through this before. Do you have any other arguments.
Mark 13:27 speaking of the Son of Man says “ἐπισυνάξει τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς αὐτοῦ” – will gather the elect of him (the elect of the son of man). Can you show anywhere in Mark where it says God chose the elect?
Do you think Mark 13:23 “I have foretold to you everything” contradicts Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.“?
Why? The son obeys the father who has put everything at his feet.
so mark like a pagan thought that his god delegated power to a creature, whats the problem ?
where does mark say the father put “everything at his feet” ? in mark, the “begotten son” is an INSTRUMENT of the spirit which casts the son into the wilderness.
mark also says that if people don’t have faith, jesus cannot do miracles
mark: AND NOT (OUK) he was ABLE (edynato) there to DO NOT ANY work of POWER (dynamin)
..and he was not able there any mighty work to do…
…except on a few infirm people having put hands he did heal [them]; ** you do not have permission to see this link **and he wondered because of their unbelief…
Definition
to be able, to have power
to be powerful, able
Of uncertain affinity; to be able or possible — be able, can (do, + -not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power.
all i see you saying is that moses has access to some divine powers and jesus has access to a longer list than moses, then this means jesus is the same as the father? this is nonsense.
“
The point is Jesus is stated to be lord of the cosmos. This is never stated for Moses or Joshua. Maybe Zacchaeus the chief tax collector in Jericho was lord of the cosmos as well. Who knows, nobody ever said he was.”
but he isn’t IDENTICAL to the father who is the “authorizer” in the gospel of mark. moses and joshua and isaiah do things which ONLY god does in the ot.
FOR example :
Here is an example. Let’s read Isaiah 7:3-11
Isaiah 7:3. **AND THE LORD SAID TO ISAIAH,** “Now go out toward Ahaz, you and Shear-Yashuv your son, to the edge of the conduit of the upper pool, to the road of the washer’s field.
(yhwh speaking)
Isaiah 7:4. **AND YOU SHALL SAY TO HIM,** “Feel secure and calm yourself, do not fear, and let your heart not be faint because of these two smoking stubs of firebrands, because of the raging anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.
Isaiah 7:5. Since Aram planned harm to you, Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, saying:
(isaiah is still speaking here…)
Isaiah 7:6. ‘Let us go up against Judah and provoke it, and annex it to us; and let us crown a king in its midst, one who is good for us,’
(Isaiah is still speaking…)
Isaiah 7:7. So said the Lord God, ‘Neither shall it succeed, nor shall it come to pass.
(isaiah is making it clear that he is still speaking on behalf of yhwh as he says “so said the Lord God.)
Isaiah 7:8. For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and in another sixty-five years, Ephraim shall be broken, no longer to be a people.
(Isaiah is still speaking)
Isaiah 7:9. And the head of Ehpraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah; if you do not believe, it is because you cannot be believed.”
(Isaiah is still speaking)
Isaiah 7:10. **AND THE LORD CONTINUED TO SPEAK TO Ahaz,** saying,
This verse says that THE LORD CONTINUED TO SPEAK TO AHAZ!
isaiah is lord and yhwh!
point is you are doing yhwh LIKE things without INVOKING yhwh, which i find interesting. “mountain throw yourself into the sea at my command”
“get up and walk”
“sun stand still”
clearly a god delegating his pwrs to mortal has made the mortal a lord in some sense.
“Jesus is not lord in Mark because he walked on water and commanded the sea and the waves. He is lord in Mark because Mark states that he is lord.”
but then you have to argue that jesus is “lord” in a sense where he is authorised by another and needs people to have faith, whereas yhwh in the old testament performs miracles even when ppl have no faith.
i just need to point out the different properties between the two to see how radically different they are.
brenmcg said
Robert said
It is the elect of the Son of Man, he is the one that chose them.
Not according to Mark. But we’ve been through this before. Do you have any other arguments.
Mark 13:27 speaking of the Son of Man says “ἐπισυνάξει τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς αὐτοῦ” – will gather the elect of him (the elect of the son of man). Can you show anywhere in Mark where it says God chose the elect?
did mark know of isaiah 1:9 ?
god is the one electing the few survivours.
can you explain what is the difference between god commanding his people and moses commanding his people ?
same hebrew word for “command” and same people being object of god and moses’ command.
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