mreichert
I know almost nothing about the Babylonian Talmud, so I looked it up. I found one quote …
Steefen
A college library poster says know the difference in quality between an internet search and research.
mreichert
You on the other hand seem to think that the Talmud is the only accurate portrayal of Jesus … Am I correct?
Steefen
I will correct you.
The character of Jesus has a detailed treatment in the Babylonian Talmud. Great fiction also has characters with detailed treatment. The content of of the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud is not categorically recognized as unreliable, so it is highly questionable or an exception that the generous Jesus content would be devoid of historicity. The rabbis of the first century who appear in the Babylonian Talmud would have been aware of the Biblical Jesus to the extent there is historical accuracy in the Pauline letters, the gospels attributed to Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, and Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.
There are mundane topics covered in the Talmud. Jesus is more than mundane. Second, the Biblical Jesus fretted over how well he was being appreciated. Then he had to accept rejection that led to the end of his ministry and his execution.
The historical fictions that the gospels are have to be mined, the Babylonian Talmud has to be mined, the Works of Josephus have to be mined, other sources have to be mined.
mreichert
Gross similarities between Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ do not discredit the gospels …
Steefen
God’s word, God’s son, and a member of a Trinity needs to have integrity. The biblical Jesus presents himself as a Jewish purist, especially given the Gospel attributed to Matthew. Similarities with a Jupiter,and Mars worshiper with a Venus association that Julius Caesar was certainly does discredit the gospels and denies credit to first theological sources.
How many similarities are too many for you?
There are gross similarities, detailed similarities, and 100% matches between Jesus Christ and his precedent Julius Caesar.
Second, Julius Caesar was a Savior for the Jewish people, politically and financially, so much so that a Roman historian noted their prominent mourning at his funeral.
mreichert
I gather that you think the gospels are historical fiction.
Steefen
Bart Ehrman has communicated much about what is not historically accurate in the gospels.
mreichert
I personally think that the gospels are typical of many biographies, containing some historically accurate information along with lots of embellishments and plain old made-up stories.
Steefen
The gospels are not historically accurate biographies. Historical fiction is not biography.
The biography of Julius Caesar written by Suetonius is not the “typical” historical fiction passing as biography of Jesus for you.
You are in error.
mreichert
There is too much that rings true (to me) to pass them off as fiction.
Steefen
What rings true and what is held valuable for someone in the first century saving Jewish culture at Qumran is of tantamount importance. Tell us how your stance is corroborated there. The Essenes did not know Jesus by name? The Essenes did not know the events of his ministry and execution? The Essenes did not know from 33-67, Jesus followers were trying to keep his memory alive?
Okay Steefen, I’ve tried my hardest to get you to answer simple questions and to clearly explain where you are coming from, but that seems to be an impossible task. So I am giving up. Go ahead and keep trying to convince readers on this blog of your not-clearly-stated point of view if you want, but you have lost me as a someone trying to learn something from you.
Steefen said
English: A Lame Person
Latin: Claudo Vicinus
Julius Caesar “Heals Clodios”
Jesus Heals the Lame
Healing the Lame/Clodios
In order to maintain the parallels between the life of Julius Caesar and the Gospels, proper names turn into generic names. One Claudius stands out: Publius Clodius Pulcher.
Julius Caesar’s Biography
There was a house, Julius Caesar’s house.
Clodius entered the house but not through the front door.
He entered with the help of servants.
He wanted to commit the sin of making his lay with Julius Caesar’s wife.
Julius Caesar told him to take what you did laying a bed in my house and walk free.
Julius Caesar forgave the man which also cleared Julius Caesar’s wife, but he divorced her also.
Accusers were horrified at the forgiveness.
The Gospel of Mark
There was a house.
A man entered the house but not through the front door.
He entered the house by the help of servants lowering him through the roof.
The lame man, on his mat, lay on the floor–on his mat of a bed.
Jesus said your sin is forgiven. Arise, and take your mat and walk.
Scribes were horrified at the forgiveness.
Julius Caesar forgives the woman (his wife) caught in adultery (or the appearance of adultery).
Jesus Christ forgives the woman caught in adultery.
This is why the Woman caught in adultery can be added later into the New Testament: because the biography of Julius Caesar is the standard.
Let’s look again at Bart Ehrman’s post:
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Julius Caesar Takes Value from Saturn’s Temple
Jesus Christ Also Takes Something of Value from Saturn:
Jesus Takes Value from Saturn’s Day, Saturday, the Sabbath
The New Testament
Question:
Why do the disciples of John fast on the Sabbath and you and your disciples do not?
Four Answers:
1) Let the family fast when the groom is away.
2) Don’t put new wine in old containers.
3) King David and his military ate the bread (showbread) of the Temple.
(shewbread: twelve loaves placed every Sabbath in the Jewish Temple and eaten by the priests at the end of the week)
4) Jesus went into the synagogue.
There was a man with a withered hand.
Did Jesus correct his problem? Yes.
The priests would use the man with the withered hand to accuse Jesus of healing on the Sabbath.
Jesus looked around in anger
Jesus: Is it lawful to do good or to do evil, to save a life or destroy a life?
See the Gospel according to Mark 3: 1-5.
The Biography of Julius Caesar
Question:
Why did Pompey the Great and his military not take money from the treasury in Saturn’s Temple?
Answer:
There is a connection between the Sabbath, Saturday, and Saturn:
Saturday is Saturn’s day.
Julius Caesar went into the Treasury in Saturn’s Temple.
He was hungry for funds.
Pompey the Great did not take the funds because he had to get away from Julius Caesar.
The Latin word Mutilus means maimed or defective.
The man with the withered hand can be linked to the Latin word Mutilus.
Metellus had a problem with Julius Caesar taking funds from the Treasury in Saturn’s Temple.
Julius Caesar got angry with him and corrected his problem via a threat. Then Metellus left.
Julius Caesar to Metellus: I could do good and not kill you or I can do evil and kill you.
With too much of the biblical biography of Jesus coming from Julius Caesar, Augustus, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian, King Izates of the Manu line of royalty (Em-Manu-El), the Homeric epics, and the man during the Jewish Revolt whom Josephus took down from a crucifixion and lived, there will not be a substantial quality to an actual historical Jesus independent of the former to be crucified.
Jesus Shouldering His Cross Is Romulus Shouldering His Tropaeum.
Plutarch has given us a description of the very impressive triumph of Romulus.
After the rape of the Sabine women, Romulus won a first victory against the King Acro of Caenina. Romulus smote Acro in duel combat and had to fulfill a vow that if he won, he would himself carry the armor and weapons of his enemy to Jupiter and dedicate them to him.
“Romulus thought about how to best fulfill the oath to Jupiter and at the same time offer the citizens a pleasing drama.
He had a mighty oak tree felled and formed into a cross that would become the tropaeum. The whole suit of armor of King Acro was mounted on the cross. Romulus put a wreath on his head. Under the wreath, his long hair flowed.
He heaved the tropaeum onto his right shoulder and sang a song of victory. His soldiers followed him and joined in the singing. Then the citizens welcomed them with joy and wonder. This procession was the model for later triumphs. The cross was dedicated to Jupiter.
It was an act of strength to carry the cross.
The Cross of Victory, Victory in Jesus, Victory in Romulus
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Julius Caesar, God, was hand in hand with Grace and Leniency Personified: Clementia.
Jews knew this and still mourned him greatly at his funeral which took away their attention from Passover.
This is Jewish tradition, standing apart but still within the Roman Empire.
The third attestation that the gospels are not just telling us an accurate account of the crucifixion of Jesus:
Part I
Jesus Christ to Pilate: No, I’m not a king in this world.
Part II
Appianus:
Before Caesar was cremated, the people bore him to the Capitol
The Roman derived Capitolium from caput.
An Etruscan king, Olus (Aulus Vulcentanus) was killed and buried there and that the Capitoline temple and hill received its name after his skull was later found there.
Gospel of Mark
They bore Jesus to Golgotha, the place of a skull.
Part III
Jesus Shouldering His Cross Is Romulus Shouldering His Tropaeum.
Plutarch has given us a description of the very impressive triumph of Romulus.
After the rape of the Sabine women, Romulus won a first victory against the King Acro of Caenina. Romulus smote Acro in duel combat and had to fulfill a vow that if he won, he would himself carry the armor and weapons of his enemy to Jupiter and dedicate them to him.
“Romulus thought about how to best fulfill the oath to Jupiter and at the same time offer the citizens a pleasing drama.
He had a mighty oak tree felled and formed into a cross that would become the tropaeum. The whole suit of armor of King Acro was mounted on the cross. Romulus put a wreath on his head. Under the wreath, his long hair flowed.
He heaved the tropaeum onto his right shoulder and sang a song of victory. His soldiers followed him and joined in the singing. Then the citizens welcomed them with joy and wonder. This procession was the model for later triumphs. The cross was dedicated to Jupiter.
It was an act of strength to carry the cross.
The Cross of Victory, Victory in Jesus, Victory in Romulus
R. Wheeler
There is really nothing similar between Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ.
Steefen
Similarities between Julius Caesar & Clementia and Jesus Christ
[Image Can Not Be Found]
Clementia: In Roman mythology, she was the goddess of clemency, leniency, mercy, forgiveness, penance, redemption, absolution and salvation. She was defined as a celebrated virtue of Julius Caesar, who was famed for his forbearance, especially following Caesar’s civil war with Pompey from 49 BC. In 44 BC, a temple was consecrated to her by the Roman Senate, possibly at Caesar’s instigation as Caesar was keen to demonstrate that he had this virtue.
1. Priestly Authority
2. Went out on the water and reassured men they could cross
3. Forgiveness and Mercy towards Enemies
4. Taking Care of the Poor
5. Enduring Persecutions
6. Beheaded Mentor
7. Betrayal by Friend/Friends
8. Awareness of Impending Death
9. Does Not Put Up a Fight against the Plot to Take His Life
10. Desires No Delay When the End Comes
11. Pierced/stabbed by Longinus
12. Wreath placed on each of their heads
Added Clementia
Added
13: Both died in the middle of the month in which Passover is recognized.
14. Both disavowed kingship in the world of the living
mreichert to Steefen
But most importantly I am still trying to figure out where you are coming from, what you believe.
When you figure it out would you let the rest of us know? Steefen’s chief form of discourse seems to be the monolog and the rest of us have pretty much given up.
Adding #15: Julius Caesar adopts a son, Octavian, Augustus Caesar: Jesus Christ adopts a son, John the Beloved
It is only in the Gospel of John, 19: 26-27, that John the disciple is established as Jesus’ heir.
It is not James, the brother of Jesus or brother of our Lord.
Woman, behold thy son (John, the beloved).
The Greek word gynai means Woman, My Lady, Wife.
Wife, behold your son (John, the beloved).
John is Octavian.
Posthumously, Octavian became the adopted son of Julius Caesar (Jesus Christ) and Calpurnia.
My Lady Calpurnia, behold, in my death, you now have an adopted son: I give you Octavian.
Octavian, beloved disciple, here is your mother.
Furthermore:
Octavian as John, the Evangelist, symbolized by the eagle.
John the Evangelist, the author of the fourth gospel account, is symbolized by an eagle
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This ancient Roman cameo depicts an eagle, symbol of imperial Roman power – Octavian, Augustus Caesar, John, the Beloved of Jesus
Mark Antony as Mark, the Evangelist, symbolized by the lion.
Mark the Evangelist, the author of the second gospel account, is symbolized by a winged lion –
[Image Can Not Be Found]
Mark Antony’s coin depicts a lion.
Adding #16a: Symbol of John the Evangelist is the eagle: Symbol of Octavian, Augustus Caesar is the eagle.
Adding #16b: Symbol of Mark the Evangelist is the lion: Symbol of Mark Antony is the lion.
Mark Antony had a view of Julius Caesar:
Mark the Evangelist or Patron or Historian had a view of Julius Caesar
Octavian, Augustus Caesar had a different view of Julius Caesar:
John the Evangelist or Patron or Historian had a different view of Jesus Christ, that the Synoptics did not have.
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A Different Person
I’m not surprised Jesus Christ is really Julius Caesar. The gospels are written in general terms.
Steefen
During the war between Pompey the Great and Julius Caesar, Caesar’s men had trouble crossing the sea–
A Different Person
to Greece.
Steefen
Julius Caesar got into a boat incognito and told his men to fear not because the luck of Caesar is with you.
A Different Person
Jesus walking on the water telling Peter to fear not, I get it.
That is interesting that Julius Caesar is Jesus Christ.
Well Stephen, looks like Steefen has totally gone off the deep end now, replying to his messages as “a different person”. What he is apparently getting at is he thinks Jesus Christ was not a real person, just made up based on modifications of stories of Julius Caesar. Or maybe he thinks Jesus was a real person but that the gospel accounts were made up from Julius Caesar and the real Jesus was someone else. Where this puts the Sermon on the Mount and others of Jesus’s teachings I don’t know, certainly those were never stated by Julius Caesar. And who did all this making up stuff and why is never explained by Steefen.
So one more time Steefen, I implore you to clearly explain what your position is. Maybe then you can have some honest discourse with readers of these blogs rather than make up fictitious responses from make-believe people. Otherwise you are wasting all our times with these blogs that basically tell us nothing. You certainly are not creating any converts based on the lack of actual responses to your postings.
mreichert
Stephen are you replying as “a different person”?
Steefen
I share exchanges I have had with others on other online forums, conversations in person, conversations with other writers, conversations with my book editors, friends, book clubs, readers of my works, public speaking engagements, etc. And vice versa (some things I get from this website, either from Dr. Ehrman, people who post to his posts, or from the member forums here.
mreichert
What he is apparently getting at is he thinks Jesus Christ was not a real person, just made up based on modifications of stories of Julius Caesar.
Steefen
Interesting: the case is giving you that conclusion.
I’m still hearing the case, a testimony actually or an investigation, one investigator’s point of view. I’m following, repeating, editing out a long story, making it short. This is all new to me. I’m synthesizing what I count as evidence and sound reasoning. I’m also seeing the big picture implications; for example, if Christianity is sinking, it’s taking Islam with it because Jesus is a significant character in The Koran.
Another person is worried about this on a personal level–a deceased, beloved grandmother passed her faith as fact to him and their love has that as a foundation; and, Julius Caesar was incorrectly not part of the mix.
mreichert
Or maybe he thinks Jesus was a real person but that the gospel accounts were made up from Julius Caesar and the real Jesus was someone else.
Steefen
I’ve made a video about what I think. Then I made a video about Julius Caesar. Since then, I’m learning more and posting here. When I finish getting all the additional information about the Julian origins of the gospel, I will think on it and render a judgement.
Your impatience does not increase the quality of this thread. You or somebody was asking about Jesus’ crucifixion. I was still hearing the case as I am now. It was so correct to not have answered you given the information I later learned about the stages of the cross–the carrying of the cross to the Place of the Skull which is similar to Romulus carrying a cross to the place of a skull.
mreichert
Where this puts the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings of Jesus I don’t know. Certainly those were never stated by Julius Caesar.
Steefen
You do not know that.
Have the sayings of Julius Caesar survived?
Has the biography of Julius Caesar’s childhood survived?
What did Augustus Caesar want known about Julius Caesar?
Do you know one particular wise man who was a friend of Augustus Caesar and his wise saying did get included in the gospel?
mreichert
And who did all this making up stuff and why is this never explained by Steefen.
Steefen
Why have I not explained it?
Who was responsible for the cult of Julius Caesar? Mark Antony and Octavian, Augustus Caesar.
Some of this is too elementary, mreichert. And even that answer is a repeat of what is already in the thread.
Second, more information is needed on the liturgy and homilies in the places of worship for Julius Caesar 44 BC to the death of Mark Antony, to the death of Octavian, how these places of worship evolved once the Son of God (Augustus Caesar) became one with God the Father, Julius Caesar. Liturgy and homilies changed again. What happened to Julius Caesar worship and/or Julius Caesar-Augustus Caesar worship under Tiberius, then Caligula, then Claudius, as more and more decades create distance? What happened once the Jewish Civil War and Jewish Revolt began and ended? Why would so much of the significant imperial worship and history go into the gospels and then the temples to Julius Caesar, the Julius Caesar-Augustus Caesar temples disappear to re-emerge in a Jewish context which, as Dr. Ehrman has taught, had more antiquity? Answer: To lend antiquity to imperial religion and make worship of emperors greater with the newly created antiquity.
mreichert So one more time Steefen, I implore you to clearly explain what your position is. Maybe then you can have some honest discourse with readers of these blogs rather than make up fictitious responses from make-believe people.
Steefen No, there is no more time from you, mreichert. I do not value your tone of voice with me. You are effective now on my adversary list which means I will not read your impatient and sloppily comprehended responses. Second, as mentioned above, there are no fictitious responses in my posts. There are no make-believe people. So, you should not have said that and I am not waiting for an apology.
mreichert Otherwise you are wasting all our times with these blogs that basically tell us nothing.
Steefen The information is tectonically important.
mreichert You certainly are not creating any converts based on the lack of actual responses to your postings.
Steefen Again, you are in error; and, we have no time for your disruptions to this thread: I and others will no longer see your input. Please do the same.
Another person is worried about this on a personal level–a deceased, beloved grandmother passed her faith as fact to him and their love has that as a foundation; and, Julius Caesar was incorrectly not part of the mix.
This is a betrayal beyond epic proportions.
Can we even build up to the level of betrayal?
Bernie Madoff.
News: 1 day ago – Financial News (FN)
Madoff compensation fund draws fire for zero payments
Justice Department settlement fund has $4bn earmarked for victims – but has not paid anyone
[So, betraying on top of betrayal – not unlike Hurricane Sandy relief. Sitting on 4 billion dollars]
The US Justice Department has been criticised for the delay, with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein telling a congressional panel this week that he would “figure out why it’s taking so long”.
So far $9.7bn has been distributed to victims of the fraud – which came to light in late 2008 – from a court-supervised liquidation by trustee Irving Picard. But a separate $4bn Justice Department fund created in 2013 is still wading through claims and no compensation has been paid.
Republican Rep Vern Buchanan of Florida wrote to the agency last month in search of an explanation, saying victims “were cheated out of their life savings, and now they’re being denied timely compensation”.
The Justice Department has said the fund is entering its “payment phase” with initial payments set for this year.
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= = =
It is a betrayal of faith, intellect, spirituality, a person’s emotional life, life, connection with the dead–resting in the arms of Jesus, quoting the gospel at funerals, etc.
It betrays Christianity, Islam, civilizations – billions of people (Christians, Latter Day Saints included, Muslims, Jews who have converted or married outside their religion). “Oh for a faith that will not shrink,” a hymn.
The Gospel of Mark is a Life of Julius Caesar
Similarity between Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ
= = =
6. Beheaded Mentor
And John the Baptist announced, there comes one greater than I am great. (Mark 1: 7)
And Pompey the Great announced, there comes one “greater” than I am “great”. He is Julius Caesar.
Some of the disciples of John the Baptist became disciples of Jesus Christ.
Some of the generals of Pompey the Great were forgiven and given positions in government by Julius Caesar.
Julius Caesar’s Mentor, Pompey the Great, was beheaded.
Jesus Christ’s Mentor, John the Baptist, was beheaded.
= = =
Adding #17: A Goddess in Polytheism is pleased with Julius Caesar. A Monotheistic God is pleased with Jesus Christ.
= = =
Introduction to Provide Context: Part I – Founding of the Roman Republic
Lucius Junius Brutus was the founder of the Roman Republic and traditionally one of the first consuls in 509 BC. Prior to the establishment of the Roman Republic, Rome had been ruled by kings.
On a trip to the Oracle of Delphi, Lucius Junius Brutus learned that the next person to “kiss his mother” would become leader of the Roman people. Brutus interpreted “mother” to mean the Earth [Mother Earth]. He pretended to trip, and he kissed the ground.
Brutus led the revolt that overthrew the last king, Lucius Tarquinius Superbus. He became the first consul in the new Roman Republic. A consul was the highest elected political office of the Roman Republic. According to Livy, Brutus’ first act was to bring the people to swear an oath never to allow any man again to be king in Rome.
Lucius Junius Brutus was claimed as an ancestor of the Roman gens Junia, including Decimus Junius Brutus and Marcus Junius Brutus, the most famous of Julius Caesar’s assassins.
= = =
Introduction to Provide Context: Part II – Venus as Mother, Divine Ancestress
Towards the end of the Roman Republic, some leading Romans laid personal claims to Venus’ favour. The general and dictator Sulla adopted Felix (“Lucky”) as a surname, acknowledging his debt to heaven-sent good fortune and his particular debt to Venus Felix, for his extraordinarily fortunate political and military career. His protégé Pompey competed for Venus’ support, dedicating (in 55 BC) a large temple to Venus Victrix as part of his lavishly appointed new theatre, and celebrating his triumph of 54 BC with coins that showed her crowned with triumphal laurels.
Pompey’s erstwhile friend, ally, and later opponent Julius Caesar went still further. He claimed the favours of Venus Victrix in his military success and Venus Genetrix as a personal, divine ancestress – apparently a long-standing family tradition among the Julii.
( Source: “Venus (mythology) – Wikipedia )
= = =
Now, let’s proceed to the similarity between Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ.
It seemed to Julius Caesar via a dream that he “slept with his mother,” a sign that Mother Earth, Goddess Venus as Mother, Divine Ancestress was pleased with her son, Julius Caesar.
As soon as Jesus came up out of the water, he saw the heavens breaking open and the Spirit descending on Him like a dove.
And a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
Mark 1: 10-11
Julius Caesar pleases the Divine. Jesus Christ pleases the Divine.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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